afitzy
Former Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2019
- Messages
- 11,285
- Reaction score
- 126,557
Thanks so much for this extremely helpful overview!Thank you so much! You’re the best. Just contact Tricia and it will be super easy!! Welcome aboard.
It looks like guilty but mentally ill is not an option in TX. So it’s either NGRI or nothing, it appears.
To flesh this out a little more for everyone I looked up those cases (kind of scary how many there are):
Mental Illness vs. Insanity in Pennsylvania Criminal Defense - Gambone Law
- Winifred Ransom (Fetal abduction - NGRI) that was a 1974 case out of PA. They use the Mc’Naughten rule. Based on the facts of that case I don’t think she’d get away with that now: 31 Dec 1969, Page 4 - The Daily Courier at Newspapers.com
- Andrea Curry-Demus (Guilty but mentally ill) Another PA case but from 2008. She was sentenced to life. Guilty by mentally ill in PA means that they didn’t meet the burden of showing they were insane at the time of the murder but we mentally ill and this entitled to treatment. BTW, this was the third time this particular woman either tried to kill a pregnant mom or stole a baby: Andrea Curry-Demus Gets Life for Cutting Baby from 18-Year-Old's Womb
- Darci Pierce (Guilty but mentally ill) 1987 NM case. Man. That case has some similarities to this one possibly.
The Crime
On July 23, 1987, brandishing a fake gun, Pierce kidnapped eight-month pregnant Cindy Lyn Ray from the parking lot of a clinic at the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Ray was returning to her car after having had a prenatal exam inside the clinic.
Pierce drove the two to her home where she was set up to perform the Caesarean operation and steal Ray's baby girl, but as she approached the house, she saw that her husband was home. She then drove to a secluded area up in the Manzano Mountains.
There she strangled Ray with the cord of a fetal monitor which was in Ray's purse. She then dragged her behind bushes and ripped at her abdomen with a car key until she could reach the near-term baby. She bit through the umbilical cord, severing the baby from her semi-conscious mother, who she then left to bleed to death. Read About the First Documented Case of Fetus Theft and Murder
(Read more at link about her planning, etc. Insane.)
She was sentenced to life in prison, which in NM is a minimum of 30 years although recent legislation is trying to make it only 30 years and relatives of her victim are horrified by that: Man whose wife was murdered, unborn baby cut out with car keys, fears her killer will be released- Effie Goodson (Initially unfit to stand for trial, later was sentenced to life). A 2003 Oklahoma case. She also initially stated her intention to mount an insanity defense and the state had sought the death penalty. But she dropped her defense and state agreed to drop the death penalty in exchange for a plea to two life sentences for two counts of murder. No possibility of parole. The family of the victims agreed. Woman pleads guilty to killing pregnant woman, cutting out fetus
- Kathy Coy (pled guilty but mentally ill to avoid the death penalty) 2011 KY case. We’ve seen the guilty but mentally ill verdict in another KY case (or maybe TN?) This was a plea deal to LWOP. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.kentucky.com/news/local/crime/article44158425.html
The Insanity Defense Among the States - FindLaw
So it looks like the only one of the ones we’ve seen above that succeeded in a NGRI was from 1974 in PA.
Finally, Texas looks like one of the strictest states when it comes to insanity:
INSANITY AS AN AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE IN TEXAS
Insanity as an affirmative defense in Texas is not used as widely as the public assumes. In fact, it is used only in rare circumstances. But when it is used, it can be an effective defense for the defendant, but may also come at a price to the defendant.
WHAT IS THE INSANITY DEFENSE?
According to Tex. Code Crim. P. Art. 46C, insanity is a defense. In Texas, at the time of the offense, the defendant must have had a mental disease or mental defect that caused the defendant not to know that his or her conduct was wrong.
The standard for this defense is very strict. In fact, a medical doctor can deem you clinically insane, but legally you can be deemed sane. Further, if a defendant were successful and found not guilty by reason of insanity, the defendant is not free but will be sent to a State mental hospital, the time of which is not to exceed the maximum amount of incarceration a guilty verdict for the offense would have rendered. To determine insanity, the State of Texas employs the M'Naghten Rule but had at one time also employed the Irresistible Impulse Test.
Houston Texas Insanity Defense | Doug Murphy Law Firm, P.C.
(That’s a really good page explaining much more about the insanity defense and how it works and how it doesn’t. Much more at link).
I note that every single one of those above is a womb raider case. So strange. But one of them kidnapped a baby from the hospital earlier before later killing a pregnant mom.
This case is more unique. I don’t think it makes a difference in terms of whether this weirdo can get off via an insanity defense.
But it’s astounding how many wackos are out there wanting to kill for a baby. I guess more now that hospitals have made or harder to steal a baby?
We are seeing Mc’Naughten rule play out in AL and it can be tricky to understand IMO. I was confused about what you said about Mc’Naughten rule vs Irresistible Impulse Test in TX. Does this mean either can be employed or is current practice to use Mc’Naughten rule exclusively in TX?
I seem to remember the other night either you or @BeeGirl were discussing the idea that if premeditation is proven that working an 'NGRI defense' is not possible or difficult for the Defendant. Is this true as an absolute?
Based on the very limited information we have about MF actions regarding HB and Baby Margo there do seem to be any number of possibly premeditated acts involved. So, assuming LE and the DA will find additional examples as the investigation moves forward, is it possible that an 'NGRI defense' won't be possible for HF?
Thanks @gitana1 and @BeeGirl for explaining these complicated but important issues!
Last edited: