TX - Heidi Broussard, 33 Found Deceased, & Margo Carey, 2 weeks, Found Alive Austin, 12 Dec 2019 #7

[cattlekate]

Still questions which are outstanding:

1) WHEN did LE see the video of HB getting into MF’s car?

2) WHAT was the rouse in getting HB into MF’s car?

3) WHAT was the reason for the 8-day hold-up in tracking MF down to the Bo Jack address?

4) WHO made the call to CPS to check on a newborn?

5) Did SC have some coaching before the Friday and Saturday interviews - ie “feed the baby.”

6) HOW could MF time “the birth” to when when CG was out of town?

7) WHAT is the electronic trail showing MF registered a baby boy - so did she have another gal on her target?

8) WHEN did the texting/calls between HB and MF become available to LE? Did MF text before showing up at the apartment? WHEN was this known?

9) MF showed up conveniently right after HB’s mom left and HB was going to be out and about, alone with MC.

So did HB text/call MF and say that was her first day alone? And that SC would get a half-day off?

HOW long did it to retrieve those messages?
HOW long was it before LE knew of the coincidence of HB’s mom leaving, HB with her first day out and about, and THOSE who knew of HB/SC’s schedule?

10) MF’s landloard and housemate - WHAT is his story and when did MF first say she was “pregnant?”

It was 8 days from disappearance to recovery. Not to pick on LE, but when did they get in gear and focus on the electronic trail?

 

[susiQ]

That is weird. Was that the only car she had available? Had it just been parked there the whole time? Did she not go anywhere for a week, to buy groceries, diapers, etc...?

It was mentioned that formula was delivered to the house, so possibly having her groceries delivered?

 

[FelicityLemon]

evidently she wasn’t concerned a friend or family member might stop by with a baby gift or casserole.

I don't know why, but that just struck me as so funny. Sad and true, but funny. I think the casserole did it for me.

 

[Chloe_ee]

I agree with all of this. I said earlier, perhaps they partied, had drinks & wound up in bed. Who knows if they had sex. If he was intoxicated she might have convinced him they did. We know she’s a prolific liar. Perhaps he told her to stay in the guest suite and after the baby arrives “we can figure things out.” Since he didn’t tell his mom, I’m thinking he had his doubts. Moo

Yes, waiting on paternity testing ... but staying quiet to MF about his doubts at being “the father.”

 

[Trudie]

MF told Heidi that her baby is with her boyfriend and they are waiting for her in a near by restaurant or a store...and she wants Heidi to come even for just for few minutes to see her new baby.

Or maybe MF has a relative in the immediate area that she claimed was watching the baby. I don’t think we will ever know.
Could be MF told Heidi “I lost my baby” and HB got in car to console her. Once MF engaged the locks, idk how Heidi could get out, no matter what was being said by MF. Short of grabbing the wheel and wrecking, idk. But we can bet Heidi was floored when things went awry, totally caught off guard. Moo
Even if MF offers an explanation, can we believe her?
Next she might say Heidi gave her the baby & committed suicide. She’s a loose cannon, imo and capable of fabricating endless possibilities. all moo

 

[gitana1]

Here you go, love! There are more, but here’s a collection to start with all different legal outcomes. If it isn’t too time consuming, I will work on verification tomorrow!

• Winifred Ransom (Fetal abduction - NGRI)
  
• Andrea Curry-Demus (Guilty but mentally ill)
• Darci Pierce (Guilty but mentally ill)
• Effie Goodson (Initially unfit to stand for trial, later was sentenced to life)
  
• Kathy Coy (pled guilty but mentally ill to avoid the death penalty)
• Lisa Montgomery (insanity defense failed, sentenced to death)

Thank you so much! You’re the best. Just contact Tricia and it will be super easy!! Welcome aboard.

It looks like guilty but mentally ill is not an option in TX. So it’s either NGRI or nothing, it appears.

To flesh this out a little more for everyone I looked up those cases (kind of scary how many there are):

• Winifred Ransom (Fetal abduction - NGRI) that was a 1974 case out of PA. They use the Mc’Naughten rule. Based on the facts of that case I don’t think she’d get away with that now: 31 Dec 1969, Page 4 - The Daily Courier at Newspapers.com
• Andrea Curry-Demus (Guilty but mentally ill) Another PA case but from 2008. She was sentenced to life. Guilty by mentally ill in PA means that they didn’t meet the burden of showing they were insane at the time of the murder but we mentally ill and this entitled to treatment. BTW, this was the third time this particular woman either tried to kill a pregnant mom or stole a baby: Andrea Curry-Demus Gets Life for Cutting Baby from 18-Year-Old's Womb
• Darci Pierce (Guilty but mentally ill) 1987 NM case. Man. That case has some similarities to this one possibly.
  The Crime
  On July 23, 1987, brandishing a fake gun, Pierce kidnapped eight-month pregnant Cindy Lyn Ray from the parking lot of a clinic at the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Ray was returning to her car after having had a prenatal exam inside the clinic.
  Pierce drove the two to her home where she was set up to perform the Caesarean operation and steal Ray's baby girl, but as she approached the house, she saw that her husband was home. She then drove to a secluded area up in the Manzano Mountains.
  There she strangled Ray with the cord of a fetal monitor which was in Ray's purse. She then dragged her behind bushes and ripped at her abdomen with a car key until she could reach the near-term baby. She bit through the umbilical cord, severing the baby from her semi-conscious mother, who she then left to bleed to death. Read About the First Documented Case of Fetus Theft and Murder
  (Read more at link about her planning, etc. Insane.)
  She was sentenced to life in prison, which in NM is a minimum of 30 years although recent legislation is trying to make it only 30 years and relatives of her victim are horrified by that: Man whose wife was murdered, unborn baby cut out with car keys, fears her killer will be released
• Effie Goodson (Initially unfit to stand for trial, later was sentenced to life). A 2003 Oklahoma case. She also initially stated her intention to mount an insanity defense and the state had sought the death penalty. But she dropped her defense and state agreed to drop the death penalty in exchange for a plea to two life sentences for two counts of murder. No possibility of parole. The family of the victims agreed. Woman pleads guilty to killing pregnant woman, cutting out fetus
  
• Kathy Coy (pled guilty but mentally ill to avoid the death penalty) 2011 KY case. We’ve seen the guilty but mentally ill verdict in another KY case (or maybe TN?) This was a plea deal to LWOP. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.kentucky.com/news/local/crime/article44158425.html

Mental Illness vs. Insanity in Pennsylvania Criminal Defense - Gambone Law

The Insanity Defense Among the States - FindLaw


So it looks like the only one of the ones we’ve seen above that succeeded in a NGRI was from 1974 in PA.

Finally, Texas looks like one of the strictest states when it comes to insanity:

INSANITY AS AN AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE IN TEXAS
Insanity as an affirmative defense in Texas is not used as widely as the public assumes. In fact, it is used only in rare circumstances. But when it is used, it can be an effective defense for the defendant, but may also come at a price to the defendant.

WHAT IS THE INSANITY DEFENSE?
According to Tex. Code Crim. P. Art. 46C, insanity is a defense. In Texas, at the time of the offense, the defendant must have had a mental disease or mental defect that caused the defendant not to know that his or her conduct was wrong.

The standard for this defense is very strict. In fact, a medical doctor can deem you clinically insane, but legally you can be deemed sane. Further, if a defendant were successful and found not guilty by reason of insanity, the defendant is not free but will be sent to a State mental hospital, the time of which is not to exceed the maximum amount of incarceration a guilty verdict for the offense would have rendered. To determine insanity, the State of Texas employs the M'Naghten Rule but had at one time also employed the Irresistible Impulse Test.
Houston Texas Insanity Defense | Doug Murphy Law Firm, P.C.
(That’s a really good page explaining much more about the insanity defense and how it works and how it doesn’t. Much more at link).

I note that every single one of those above is a womb raider case. So strange. But one of them kidnapped a baby from the hospital earlier before later killing a pregnant mom.

This case is more unique. I don’t think it makes a difference in terms of whether this weirdo can get off via an insanity defense.

But it’s astounding how many wackos are out there wanting to kill for a baby. I guess more now that hospitals have made or harder to steal a baby?

 

[Bravo]

I don't see her qualifying for legal insanity. Seems she knew what she did was wrong, even apparently tried to cast suspicion on Heidi's boyfriend.

What she did is certainly Insane but she doesn't meet the Legal standard of Insane. Evident by all of her actions.

 

[lindaromas]

MF was a skilled liar and a con artist but she couldn't tell Heidi she has her baby in car and Heidi should come to see her baby... because there was no baby and no car seat .
In any case Heidi wouldn't get inside Mageen car without a carseat to put Margo in .
So what could she have told Heidi to lure her inside and drive away with her ?
An idea came to mind.
MF told Heidi that her baby is with her boyfriend and they are waiting for her in a near by restaurant or a store...and she wants Heidi to come even for just for few minutes to see her new baby.

Someone posted a grocery list a while back, I'm wondering if MF said she would take HB to the grocery?

 

[OHSharon]

I don't know why, but that just struck me as so funny. Sad and true, but funny. I think the casserole did it for me.

Me too! It is so sad at the same time. "Here is a tuna noodle casserole and by the way I think there is something dead in your yard, oh your baby is so cute it looks just like..." and then the visitor turns a pale shade of gray.

Edited: I felt like what I said may have been insensitive, will watch that in the future. sorry

 

[Trudie]

@cattlekate

#3 we don’t know that MF went straight home after abducting Heidi.
#6 maybe he travels weekly. In any case, she had to have a baby, soon. My guess is of he had been home, she would have said she birthed in Austin.
#10 MF told Heidi and two other gals she was pregnant in May. (Video posted a few pages back)

moo

 

[OHSharon]

dupe

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

Still questions which are outstanding:

1) WHEN did LE see the video of HB getting into MF’s car?

2) WHAT was the rouse in getting HB into MF’s car?

3) WHAT was the reason for the 8-day hold-up in tracking MF down to the Bo Jack address?

4) WHO made the call to CPS to check on a newborn?

5) Did SC have some coaching before the Friday and Saturday interviews - ie “feed the baby.”

6) HOW could MF time “the birth” to when when CG was out of town?

7) WHAT is the electronic trail showing MF registered a baby boy - so did she have another gal on her target?

8) WHEN did the texting/calls between HB and MF become available to LE? Did MF text before showing up at the apartment? WHEN was this known?

9) MF showed up conveniently right after HB’s mom left and HB was going to be out and about, alone with MC.

So did HB text/call MF and say that was her first day alone? And that SC would get a half-day off?

HOW long did it to retrieve those messages?
HOW long was it before LE knew of the coincidence of HB’s mom leaving, HB with her first day out and about, and THOSE who knew of HB/SC’s schedule?

10) MF’s landloard and housemate - WHAT is his story and when did MF first say she was “pregnant?”

It was 8 days from disappearance to recovery. Not to pick on LE, but when did they get in gear and focus on the electronic trail?

IIRC MF's car wasn't registered at that address. Also she was in contact with Heidi's family,and friends playing the concerned Bestie. Even Tim Miller was taken by surprise. Also Tim Miller mentioned SC telling him about lie detector test,and cussing out investigators. So They probably didn't know who,or what to believe. MF Certainly pointed her finger squarely at SC, in her convo with Tim. It truly was a wild goose chase. Thusly until they can pinpoint who,what,where,when. They just didn't know.
MOO

 

[Tortoise]

I think it was important to her to have Heidi's baby. The risks of her being caught with Margo were so much higher than if she had stolen a stranger's baby with no links to her. IMO.

 

[susiQ]

I admit I've missed some posts along the way so just trying to understand. HB was found in the trunk/boot of the grey/silver car, yet, a black SUV was also towed away? The Google pic shows a white car and a black SUV in the driveway at some point in time (white car could have belonged to previous gf). So, I'm merely guessing the black SUV belonged to CG? Did MF have access to CG's vehicle while he was out of town? I often drove my hubby to the airport to avoid expensive weekly parking charges. Was there a baby base in the black SUV? Or one in MF's grey/silver car?

Has it been mentioned whether HB got into a grey/silver car or a black SUV? Sorry if I missed this.

 

[kkdj]

Someone posted a grocery list a while back, I'm wondering if MF said she would take HB to the grocery?

My biggest questions are:
Why the front door to the apt wide open?
Why was HB's car unlocked?
Why was her purse left in the car?

Sounds to me like HB went against her will but without a struggle. Maybe she had tried to escape tho, which would account for all of the above.

 

[Holly West]

Makes me sad and angry to think that baby Margo was probably a means to an end for MF. I don't think she planned what she was actually going to do with the baby after Heidi was out of the way.

 

[afitzy]

Still questions which are outstanding:

Sniped to answer:
It was 8 days from disappearance to recovery. Not to pick on LE, but when did they get in gear and focus on the electronic trail?

We had live news reports from Houston at the MF house that said LE were then waiting on search warrants. We know roughly the time LE showed up at the MF house, the time that Baby Margo was taken to the hospital and what time the ME showed up to remove the body of HB.

We heard that the Austin DA said that the Houston DA extended the investigation 'every courtesy' at the Press Conference so LE was no doubt moving as quickly as possible, but it did seem that the Press was on site at the same time the situation was evolving and they mentioned that warrants were being waited upon.

This doesn't answer the question you originally posed about 'why 8 days'? But if LE had to sift through a lot of CCTV to isolate the MF car at the HB apt complex and then track the vehicle via CCTV and tolls or whatever means possible from Austin to Houston, then it must have been a tough and time consuming task indeed. I'm not convinced though that this is how they found the MF house as I believe the statement from LE was a credible 'lead' and then we saw that CPS/Fire from Houston were involved initially. It will be interesting to see eventually how exactly this 'lead' materialised and if it came from a family member or friend of MF or CG or even CG? I'm not convinced that at this point we can answer fully the question about the source of the LE lead to MF house.

I also would guess that LE was tracking multiple tips and possible leads at the same time and even with the substantial resources in play, things simply took time.

MOO

 

[Seattle1]

Steroid use would also explain all of those symptoms.

I think it likely that we'll find out at trial what caused the drastic change in her appearance, as the prosecution will want to show all the deliberate measures she took to dupe people into believing she was pregnant, including her primary intended victim, HB.

I absolutely do not believe that she developed a medical condition which conveniently caused her to appear heavier right at the precise time she was feigning a pregnancy.

That's just a little too coincidental to be the most likely explanation for her changed appearance.

I think MF did something intentionally to give herself the appearance of having gradual but significant body changes, similar to what happens during an advancing pregnancy.

JMO.

I think MF was already in significant trouble before she added faux pregnancy to her agenda.

She'd lost her job sometime 2018 for allegedly stealing $5k from her employer (State Jail Felony), was unemployed, and facing a trial with a jail sentence. Those stressors alone could add the lbs and prompt hair loss.

Come May 2019 - she's got to know the theft case not going away because she has a November 5 trial date. I think MF believed being pregnant with a December delivery date would be beneficial to her before a jury.

MF appeared in court with her attorney under the pregnant ruse and her last bit of good luck in her sorry life was that charges were dismissed without a trial. Had she actually been convicted and gone to jail in November she could always say the baby stillborn while she was incarcerated. But with her unexpected freedom, I think she needed to produce a baby and fast. I think her continuing support and shelter depended on it.

MOO

 

[Trudie]

It was mentioned that formula was delivered to the house, so possibly having her groceries delivered?

plus daddy was probably giving her a stipend to prepare for the baby. It was said Margo was found in a baby swing.
I’m sure part of MF’s plot involved preparing a nursery. moo

 

[PeachyMystery]

Thank you so much! You’re the best. Just contact Tricia and it will be super easy!! Welcome aboard.

It looks like guilty but mentally ill is not an option in TX. So it’s either NGRI or nothing, it appears.

To flesh this out a little more for everyone I looked up those cases (kind of scary how many there are):

• Winifred Ransom (Fetal abduction - NGRI) that was a 1974 case out of PA. They use the Mc’Naughten rule. Based on the facts of that case I don’t think she’d get away with that now: 31 Dec 1969, Page 4 - The Daily Courier at Newspapers.com
• Andrea Curry-Demus (Guilty but mentally ill) Another PA case but from 2008. She was sentenced to life. Guilty by mentally ill in PA means that they didn’t meet the burden of showing they were insane at the time of the murder but we mentally ill and this entitled to treatment. BTW, this was the third time this particular woman either tried to kill a pregnant mom or stole a baby: Andrea Curry-Demus Gets Life for Cutting Baby from 18-Year-Old's Womb
• Darci Pierce (Guilty but mentally ill) 1987 NM case. Man. That case has some similarities to this one possibly.
  The Crime
  On July 23, 1987, brandishing a fake gun, Pierce kidnapped eight-month pregnant Cindy Lyn Ray from the parking lot of a clinic at the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Ray was returning to her car after having had a prenatal exam inside the clinic.
  Pierce drove the two to her home where she was set up to perform the Caesarean operation and steal Ray's baby girl, but as she approached the house, she saw that her husband was home. She then drove to a secluded area up in the Manzano Mountains.
  There she strangled Ray with the cord of a fetal monitor which was in Ray's purse. She then dragged her behind bushes and ripped at her abdomen with a car key until she could reach the near-term baby. She bit through the umbilical cord, severing the baby from her semi-conscious mother, who she then left to bleed to death. Read About the First Documented Case of Fetus Theft and Murder
  (Read more at link about her planning, etc. Insane.)
  She was sentenced to life in prison, which in NM is a minimum of 30 years although recent legislation is trying to make it only 30 years and relatives of her victim are horrified by that: Man whose wife was murdered, unborn baby cut out with car keys, fears her killer will be released
• Effie Goodson (Initially unfit to stand for trial, later was sentenced to life). A 2003 Oklahoma case. She also initially stated her intention to mount an insanity defense and the state had sought the death penalty. But she dropped her defense and state agreed to drop the death penalty in exchange for a plea to two life sentences for two counts of murder. No possibility of parole. The family of the victims agreed. Woman pleads guilty to killing pregnant woman, cutting out fetus
  
• Kathy Coy (pled guilty but mentally ill to avoid the death penalty) 2011 KY case. We’ve seen the guilty but mentally ill verdict in another KY case (or maybe TN?) This was a plea deal to LWOP. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.kentucky.com/news/local/crime/article44158425.html

Mental Illness vs. Insanity in Pennsylvania Criminal Defense - Gambone Law

The Insanity Defense Among the States - FindLaw


So it looks like the only one of the ones we’ve seen above that succeeded in a NGRI was from 1974 in PA.

Finally, Texas looks like one of the strictest states when it comes to insanity:

INSANITY AS AN AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE IN TEXAS
Insanity as an affirmative defense in Texas is not used as widely as the public assumes. In fact, it is used only in rare circumstances. But when it is used, it can be an effective defense for the defendant, but may also come at a price to the defendant.

WHAT IS THE INSANITY DEFENSE?
According to Tex. Code Crim. P. Art. 46C, insanity is a defense. In Texas, at the time of the offense, the defendant must have had a mental disease or mental defect that caused the defendant not to know that his or her conduct was wrong.

The standard for this defense is very strict. In fact, a medical doctor can deem you clinically insane, but legally you can be deemed sane. Further, if a defendant were successful and found not guilty by reason of insanity, the defendant is not free but will be sent to a State mental hospital, the time of which is not to exceed the maximum amount of incarceration a guilty verdict for the offense would have rendered. To determine insanity, the State of Texas employs the M'Naghten Rule but had at one time also employed the Irresistible Impulse Test.
Houston Texas Insanity Defense | Doug Murphy Law Firm, P.C.
(That’s a really good page explaining much more about the insanity defense and how it works and how it doesn’t. Much more at link).

I note that every single one of those above is a womb raider case. So strange. But one of them kidnapped a baby from the hospital earlier before later killing a pregnant mom.

This case is more unique. I don’t think it makes a difference in terms of whether this weirdo can get off via an insanity defense.

But it’s astounding how many wackos are out there wanting to kill for a baby. I guess more now that hospitals have made or harder to steal a baby?

This is so informative! Thank you for this! On another note, while all of the above are disturbing, the Pierce/Ray case is absolutely terrifying. Sawing through flesh with car keys?! MY. GOD.
JMO