How Many Steps to Innocence??

[cynic]

Wasn't ML's excuse (for bringing him back to the US) that he KNEW stuff about the murder that was never made public?Still confused about that.After his DNA didn't match and after they couldn't place him in Boulder....what happened with all the stuff he "knew"??Wasn't this the reason they brought him back?Cause anyone can claim he/she killed JB,why was HE so special?You gotta have something on him in order to put him on a plane in cuffs,right?Or was this another silly mistake?

Not saying he did it,I just want an explanation for what ML did.One that makes sense.

It's either he knew nothing new...but then why bring him back,on what grounds....

Or he knew something......and if so,what and from whom?And why didn't we hear about it.

She had nothing Maddy, if you are ever bored and haven't already gone through this, take a look:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/newworld/johnkarr.pdf

Karr had no "inside" information, whatsoever, and got a number of things totally wrong.

 

[SunnieRN]

Thank you Cynic!! The truth, is the truth, is the truth and it NEVER changes, despite the spin some individuals like to place on it!!!:woohoo:

 

[cynic]

Thank you Cynic!! The truth, is the truth, is the truth and it NEVER changes, despite the spin some individuals like to place on it!!!:woohoo:

Thanks, Sunnie. It’s too bad that this much time has to be spent on a worthless waste of space like JMK, or should I say, Alexis Valoran Reich.

 

[Agatha_C]

Cynic, I want to be you when I grow up.. You amaze me with the time and effort you put into your posts.

 

[cynic]

Cynic, I want to be you when I grow up.. You amaze me with the time and effort you put into your posts.

That's not your way of telling me to get a life, is it?

 

[Agatha_C]

No way!!!!!!!!!! You have a life right here with this dysfunctional family...LOL

 

[cynic]

No way!!!!!!!!!! You have a life right here with this dysfunctional family...LOL

Thanks??? LOL

 

[MurriFlower]

This is not what RDI wants everyone to believe. The truth is that there was no legitimate reason, whatsoever, for JMK to be brought back to the USA.

FOUR YEARS of correspondence saying that he dun it. http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682486/John-Mark-Karr
Look under Incriminating Evidence.

If you read his confession, the arrest affidavit and the transcript of ML's news conference relating to the arrest you will see that it was a baseless arrest.
What he described with JBR was a pack of lies.
What he was doing in Thailand had nothing at all to do with JBR.No, there were outstanding misdemeanor charges (insufficient for extradition,) but the US arrest warrant charged him with murder, kidnapping and sexual assault of a child (JBR.)

He was teaching little children in a school where he really had no place to be for goodness sake! Grooming another little girl and telling Tracey about it!! Nothing to do with JBR I suppose but everything to do with possessing kiddi *advertiser censored* (the charge he fled the US for) and an admitted pedophile, lining up his next victim. Apparently the school was awake up to his behaviour and was about to terminate his employment, meaning that he could disappear again and this time maybe for good. So rather than seeking attention, he was actually trying to avoid detection. A bit unusual for a false confessor doncha think?

Pretty much everyone did, she was eviscerated in the press, and rightly so.
The little girl's memory and the loved ones who survive her deserve knowing and peace, not this.
That the first time John Mark Karr ever steps foot in Boulder County will be the day Mary Lacy flies him in, well, that is simply sad and embarrassing. Not funny at all.
Rocky Mountain News 8/19/06, Bill Johnson
Facing a whirlwind of criticism since dropping the case after DNA testing eliminated Karr as a suspect…
Bringing Karr from Thailand to Los Angeles and then to Boulder has been widely criticized - even by the governor…
She said she has personally taken angry phone calls from Boulder County citizens and returned the call of a Longmont man who said she should resign and be "tarred and feathered and run out of town."
http://www.denverpost.com/jonbenet/ci_4258075
Gov. Bill Owens has already called for her resignation for having "wasted thousands of taxpayer dollars" on "the most extravagant and expensive DNA test in Colorado history."
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4257909
There is nothing brave or heroic about Lacy steadfastly working toward her longstanding goal of exonerating the Ramseys at all cost.

The following are excerpts from Lacy’s news conference:

Mary Lacy: “I want to make it absolutely clear up front that the decisions were mine, the responsibility is mine and I should be held accountable for all decisions in this case.”
…
Mary Lacy: We took surreptitious DNA on multiple occasions. Immediately upon locating this person - who went to mailboxes to pick up a package that we sent to him., two different officers took DNA off of the bicycle that he rode back. On a separate occasion, they obtained a cup that he used to drink from and a tissue or wipe that he used to wipe his hands. The bottom line is that after we did that, our expert - and we put a great deal of respect in our expert from the Denver lab - said that the sample in the underwear of the victim was a mixed sample and that we do not want to compare a mixed sample with a mixed sample. We need a pristine sample.
…
Reporter: So bottom line, you had no evidence when he stepped off the plane in Boulder? You had absolutely no evidence other than his bizarre e-mails which you agree that… a person could have concocted. That’s the only thing you had that would place him in this crime scene.. In other words, you had nothing… essentially - other than his statements?
Mary Lacy: We had probable cause to arrest him based on our having tested other statements within the e-mails and the telephone calls. Which is typically how we test credibility in someone - are they prone to lying about other things in their lives? Because if they’re lying about other things, they’re probably lying about this too.
Carol McKinley: So what was different about this guy - as opposed to some of the other guys whom we know you seriously looked at in the past nine and a half years. What was so different about this guy and why was the arrest made on him and not the others?
…
Mary Lacy: Well the difficulty with this person is that.. Uh.. Most of the time when you look at what a person tells you they committed the crime and here’s how they did it, you can discount it almost immediately. Uhm… it’s not just that it’s bizarre but there are factors in it where you can say “this person is just dead wrong”. And most of the time that happens - I’d say 95% of the time. Occasionally someone contacts us who appears to be a little more serious. In this case, because he believed it himself and continues to believe, he had all of the emotional .. Uhm… import that you would have when… Did anyone have an opportunity to listen to the telephone calls of the 15th July and the 22nd of July? The man is sobbing as he’s telling his story. He can’t talk, he goes away from the phone, he comes back. He has the psychopathy, the background that you would expect or look for in a person who’s committed a crime of this nature. This was an extremely violent crime. So when you combine the psychopathy and his statements and his emotional import and his knowledge of the crime and his knowledge of the family. We spent time with John and Patsy Ramsey and something that John Ramsey said to me was that… and he read the e-mails - had read them previously, He said “This person has personal knowledge of these family members. His description of the Paugh women is right on”. He said “I don’t know how you would know that, you wouldn’t see it from the outside.”. he said “His description of JonBenet and Burke and how they related to each other …“. he said “It’s dead on. He knows….”. So John’s take on it was “you need to pay attention to this” and this was back in May of this year.
…
Man: Would you do it all again?
Mary Lacy: You know, I think that we felt that we could not ignore this, we had to follow it, we also had an issue that we haven’t talked about is that there was a real public safety concern here directed at a particular child and a person who was expressing feelings toward that child the same as the feelings he felt towards the dead child and I have to tell you that was a huge factor in what…how this occurred in this particular case.
Mary Lacy Press Conference Re: John Mark Karr, 08/29/06

To recap, ML’s reasons for bringing JMK back to the USA:

• They needed a “pristine” sample of his DNA. FALSE

DR. LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC EXAMINER: Well, like many other people I'm somewhat shocked but I'm not shocked that he was let off the hook. I'm shocked that apparently the D.A. Mary Lacy did not have anything of any substance that connected him to the victim or the crime scene.
She was gambling and I hate to use the word bungling but the case was bungled from the beginning, as we all know. The crime scene wasn't handled properly and, again here, you know, I think they really should have waited until they had some kind of physical evidence before they arrested this individual.
And I don't buy it. I don't buy that they couldn't take surreptitious DNA. It's done many times here in the states. People get convicted on that basis. I don't buy it.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/28/lkl.01.html

• Could not find evidence of untruthfulness in his correspondence with Tracey. FALSE

How could ML say this nonsense with a straight face? Oh wait a minute, I forgot, because she’s ML.
Seriously, if she cannot see “there are factors in it where you can say “this person is just dead wrong” then she is quite simply blind.
Just two examples of errors which I noted previously:
“Karr said he waited until he believed all occupants of the home were asleep then entered into JonBenets bedroom obtained her from her bed as she was sleeping and carried the sleeping child down a stairwell into a basement level room. Within the room JonBenet was placed on his lap and he spoke with her and stroked her hair.”
“Karr added he placed underwear or "knickers" onto JonBenet that he brought with him. The underwear brought by Karr was several sizes too large for JonBenet.”
http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/newworld/johnkarr.pdf

Well for what it's worth (and I'm thinking to RDI that would be less than very little) I think she did the right thing and only thing she could in the circumstances.

• John Ramsey said, “You need to pay attention to this”

Taking advice from a primary suspect in a murder case is ridiculous.

• He was “grooming” a girl in Thailand.

Karr in Thailand was Thailand’s problem. Authorities could have been tipped off and I’m certain that a Thai prison would have done wonders for Karr.

Well, you can't be arrested even in Thailand for something you haven't yet done I don't suppose. BUT if the US authorities had their attention drawn to a US citizen (already wanted in the USA on kiddie *advertiser censored* charges) who had confessed to a murder of one child in the USA and was telling somone he was grooming another child in Thailand, and did nothing about it, then that would be criminal.

To conclude, they flew JMK back to the USA, first class, when there was no physical evidence connecting him to the crime and with no evidence that he was ever in Boulder, much less in the Ramsey home. This is in addition to a "confession" that was riddled with inaccuracies.

It really sticks in your craw that he was flown back first class doesn't it??

He apparently told an investigator "If you don't let me plead guilty, how will you feel? How will you live with yourself when I kill a little girl?" Inaccuracies apparently crept into the confession, but in his correspondence with Tracey, everything he said about himself that was checkable was correct. This is one reason they believed he was telling the truth initially.

 

[cynic]

Look for your self

We were called upon to examine the ransom note that was left at the crime scene. The other handwriting expert was in Maryland. Both of us were kept separate so our opinions would be independent. In my opinion, I found that it was highly probable that Patsy was the person who wrote the note. I found over 243 similarities between her handwriting and
the ransom note. The other handwriting expert said that he was 100 positive that Patsy wrote the note.
http://www.cinawongforgeryexpert.com/mediaroom_insidebusiness.asp

Cina Wong speaks about her analysis of the handwriting in the Ramsey case:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg85wR8Uy5Q[/ame]

 

[cynic]

FOUR YEARS of correspondence saying that he dun it. http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682486/John-Mark-Karr
Look under Incriminating Evidence.



He was teaching little children in a school where he really had no place to be for goodness sake! Grooming another little girl and telling Tracey about it!! Nothing to do with JBR I suppose but everything to do with possessing kiddi *advertiser censored* (the charge he fled the US for) and an admitted pedophile, lining up his next victim. Apparently the school was awake up to his behaviour and was about to terminate his employment, meaning that he could disappear again and this time maybe for good. So rather than seeking attention, he was actually trying to avoid detection. A bit unusual for a false confessor doncha think?



Well for what it's worth (and I'm thinking to RDI that would be less than very little) I think she did the right thing and only thing she could in the circumstances.


Well, you can't be arrested even in Thailand for something you haven't yet done I don't suppose. BUT if the US authorities had their attention drawn to a US citizen (already wanted in the USA on kiddie *advertiser censored* charges) who had confessed to a murder of one child in the USA and was telling somone he was grooming another child in Thailand, and did nothing about it, then that would be criminal.



It really sticks in your craw that he was flown back first class doesn't it??

He apparently told an investigator "If you don't let me plead guilty, how will you feel? How will you live with yourself when I kill a little girl?" Inaccuracies apparently crept into the confession, but in his correspondence with Tracey, everything he said about himself that was checkable was correct. This is one reason they believed he was telling the truth initially.

As I said, if you read his confession, the arrest warrant and the transcript of ML's news conference relating to Karr, you will see that it was a baseless arrest.

 

[MurriFlower]

As I said, if you read his confession, the arrest warrant and the transcript of ML's news conference relating to Karr, you will see that it was a baseless arrest.

As I said, damned if she did, damned if she didn't. I like it that she chose the road that kept a child safe, even if it meant she was vilified for it. That showed guts.

 

[DeeDee249]

Right, and his wife at the time (or girlfriend...or whatever she was) had pictures of him with HER on Christmas 96. Unless he figured out a way to be in two places at once....which I highly doubt, because I have never heard of anyone being able to do that before.

Interesting that JR's ex-wife (JAR's mother) was unwilling/unable to provide any Christmas Day photos proving JAR was with HER that day.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Interesting that JR's ex-wife (JAR's mother) was unwilling/unable to provide any Christmas Day photos proving JAR was with HER that day.

Wasn't a movie ticket stub and a questionable photo from an atm used to verify JAR's whereabouts that night? Well, we all know you can't fight that kind of evidence. Hey, DeeDee, maybe her camera's batteries were dead.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I've always been a bit suspicious of JAR for a number of reasons. The R's neighbor, Joe Barnhill said that he said JAR walking up to the house on Christmas. He later recanted his statement. We just have an ATM photo (that was probably really grainy) and a movie stub that JAR was able to provide months later to show that JAR wasn't in Boulder. Also, didn't John say that they wouldn't be interviewed until JAR and Melinda were cleared? And weren't JAR and Melinda lawyered up while other people in the family weren't? Also, the suitcase near JBR had a JAR's book and blanket with his semen on it. I sometimes wonder if the reason there is no Christmas video and only two Christmas photos is because JAR was there.

Maybe JAR was there during the morning and he left when the R's went to Whites for Christmas. But instead of going to the airport, he went back into the house which would be when Joe Barnhill saw him enter the house.

 

[Ames]

Wasn't a movie ticket stub and a questionable photo from an atm used to verify JAR's whereabouts that night? Well, we all know you can't fight that kind of evidence. Hey, DeeDee, maybe her camera's batteries were dead.

Yeah, a ticket stub. Heck, I could have given JAR that ticket stub...geez. It's not like they have a photo of the person on it that actually bought the ticket. He could have FOUND it, or one of his friends could have given it to him. Just because HE had a ticket stub from that night, doesn't mean that HE is the one that saw the movie. That proves absolutely nothing. (They need to check into JAR a little bit more).

 

[Becky319]

I don't see Patsy covering up for JAR. However I often wonder if her stalled and don't remember answers during interviews was out of fear because she had been well warned what would happen if she let the truth slip out.

 

[feddup]

I don't see Patsy covering up for JAR. However I often wonder if her stalled and don't remember answers during interviews was out of fear because she had been well warned what would happen if she let the truth slip out.

Wht wouldve happened if she told the truth? That she had an evil stepson that killed her daughter? That doesnt make sense. What family would allow that? And Ive never heard that JAR handwriting looked like the ransom note handwriting.
Werent he and the other daughter supposed to fly in the day after Christmas? It would make sense that they would spend Christmas day with their Mother. Im from a divorced family believe me, Im used to doing 2 different holidays every yr:innocent: Has it ever been said JAR had a grudge against the 2 youngest kids?

 

[Becky319]

Wht wouldve happened if she told the truth? That she had an evil stepson that killed her daughter? That doesnt make sense. What family would allow that?

snipped by me

I meant that I think they were well rehearsed on how to answer and what to say and I think she had been warned to stick with what they had practiced and that made her a nervous when answering questions. I don't go along with JAR doing it at all, I thought he was cleared early on in the case, especially since he, his sister and her boyfriend were all on the commercial flight to meet up with the folks in Michigan.

 

[madeleine]

Absolutely AND Pete Peterson thought McSanta's was a match. It's not a very precise science is it?

No,it's not.to me at least.it's very......"spinable"....

On the other hand, DNA analysis doesn't leave as much margin for error.

not so sure about that

 

[joeskidbeck]

My comments in blue:

Wht wouldve happened if she told the truth? That she had an evil stepson that killed her daughter That doesnt make sense. What family would allow that?
If and I mean IF he were there and doing bad things to JonBenet, that doesn't make him her killer. With what was found in his suitcase in the cellar, LE should have went beyond what they did in order to clear him.
And Ive never heard that JAR handwriting looked like the ransom note handwriting.
Nope, the handwriting looks like Patsy's.
Werent he and the other daughter supposed to fly in the day after Christmas? If he was in Boulder that night, no problem flying back to Atlanta that night or very early next morning.

It would make sense that they would spend Christmas day with their Mother. Im from a divorced family believe me, Im used to doing 2 different holidays every yr:innocent: Has it ever been said JAR had a grudge against the 2 youngest kids?

Like I said earlier, if he was there, none of this family is going to admit it. If he and his sister were both in Atlanta, what would be the need for lawyering them up? No need, whatsoever. There would also be no need for a "grudge" against his sister. I believe this was an accident, not a murder with motive.

Patsy would not cover for JAR unless she had a hand in what happened. As in maybe she caught him molesting JB and tried to hit him and missed. Many things COULD have happened that night. I've always thought it strange that Mr. Barnhill said he saw JAR there that day. He knew JAR and what reason would he have for lying? Who knows, it may have been her big brother that promised her a "secret" visit from Santa that night. There was a Santa suit taken into evidence. Just spitballing here, I happen to believe there are numerous scenarios that could have played out that night and I am not committed to any one theory except: RDI.

Of course, all this could be due to my vivid imagination. It takes no imagination at all to put an intruder in the house that night (LOL).