How Many Steps to Innocence??

[BBB167893]

Look for your self

If you want to get into a battle of side-by-sides, you know I'm game!

Just goes to show doesn't it, even someone WE ALL KNOW DIDN'T DO IT, because hummm, because umm, oh well, because he admitted it and we all know anyone who really did do it wouldn't admit it eh? Why are we so sure?? Well the DNA didn't match. And his wife said he was with her.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Even BEFORE his DNA came back as a non-match and his wife (who didn't even like him) said he couldn't have been there, his story had holes you could drive a semi through.

Right. BUT:

The DNA doesn't match the R's but you ARE ALL STILL POSITIVE that means nothing.

I don't know about all of us, but I am. In fact, your using JMK as an example merely illustrates the fundamental problem IDI has: you guys put so much emphasis on the DNA, that on the off-chance an intruder suspect DOES come along who has no alibi, was known to be in the area, and matches the handwriting as well as it can be matched, if his DNA comes back negative, that's that, man. He's free and clear. IDI has left themselves absolutely NO chance that the DNA could be irrelevant. You've bricked yourselves into a corner. ML must have realized that, because when JMK's test came back a zero, she tried to backstep by saying what we're saying: that not all DNA found at a crime scene is relevant. And it didn't work. Even if there had been a chance of pursuing JMK from then on, her earlier emphasis made that a hollow argument.

I hope you're getting all of this!

They were all asleep and husband/wife/son are happy to vouch for each other, BUT YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

No, I don't!

So, here is a nutcase pedophile who admitted to it, and, surprise, surprise, his handrwiting looks VERY much like the RN!!

Well, even if we disagree that his handwriting looks very much like the RN (and even if I did agree with it, he had years to practice so he could get it that way), that's precisely my point: here you had the perfect fall guy, the best possible candidate for the DA to hang for this, and they weren't smart enough to frame the guy who said I did it.

But of course, we all know he didn't do it don't we??

Yes, we do.

Nah, you know it's problematic so you all try to discount it,

It's only problematic because of the willful ignorance of people who have staked the farm on it.

reckon it got there by tertiary transfer from some innocent person (I lurve the parcel theory LOL)

I'm afraid you'll have to remind me what the "parcel theory" is.

You really haven't faced up to the fact that this evidence is evidence.

I can't face up to a fact unless it's a fact. I swear, it's like you didn't read a word I said!

What you have is what? Some dodgy 'experts', paid by tabloids to say so, or merely seeking publicity for themselves, reckon PR wrote the note.

Ugh! PLEASE do not waste my time with that BS! I had a feeling that's what you were going to say, but I was so hoping I was wrong. Hope dies so fast around here. The worst part is how ironic it is. You've described the JMK-wrote-it experts, Murri. The PR-wrote-it people, by contrast, were and are the top in their field. Just to name one: Gideon Epstein is not only one of THE great document examiners, but he has a reputation as a maverick. He doesn't go along with what's popular. And he was not "hired" to say she wrote it. He came to that conclusion totally on his own, and he didn't take a dime for it. And even though he didn't have to, he even double-checked with his employers at the Justice Department to make sure there was no conflict of interest before he took his analysis to the Boulder DA, who was not interested.

There were some who said she 'could not be excluded'.

Which you don't seem to give a tinker's damn about.

(Nor could 50% of the general population, including JMK.)

That's nonsense. That's the same propaganda the Rs and their hired guns have fed us, and I'm. Not. Buying. It.

And that is about it.

oh, don't you wish.

Oh I forgot, they looked and acted suspicious in your opinion. That's a biggy.

It's part of it. Not a "biggy" so much.

No, my friend, you don't have any evidence against them except what exists in your own mind.

Wow, isn't that a coincidence? I was going to say the same thing about the intruder!

You want to believe her parents killed her, accidentally or on purpose, wrote an irrational ransom note, covered for each other

You're wrong, Murri. You couldn't be more wrong. That's the LAST thing I want to believe. I'd give my own arm NOT to believe it.

and if you get the chance you will include all the family as accessories.

You don't want to KNOW who I would include as accessories.

Hmmmmm. Don't think so!!

Would you like a medal?

 

[BBB167893]

Hang on a bit. Let's look at this logically. You think they wrote it because you think she was previously molested by her father/brother, which you think was the cause of her being murdered!! Here we go again, one piece on top of another with no basis of fact in the beginning. The previous molestation (which is simply a misinterpretation of the autopsy wording) was at the root cause of all this?? So, what caused the molestation? PR's own molestation by her father, I'm guessing?? Well, it's all sewn up then! Oh boy you really are building a 'body of evidence' there. All on a premise of familial serial sexual molestation of which there is absolutely no basis in fact.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[BBB167893]

Murri,

Answer me this one question please, as IDI is good at avoiding

They get a lot of practice. Comes with the territory, I'm afraid. And frankly, I've had my fill of it.

Please, this is your chance to show me you have real ideas and have given real intelligent thought to at least one small thing. PLEEEEEEASSSSSE, I am begging you.

CMoA, Agatha.

 

[DeeDee249]

Look for your self

Just goes to show doesn't it, even someone WE ALL KNOW DIDN'T DO IT, because hummm, because umm, oh well, because he admitted it and we all know anyone who really did do it wouldn't admit it eh? Why are we so sure?? Well the DNA didn't match. And his wife said he was with her.

Right. BUT:

The DNA doesn't match the R's but you ARE ALL STILL POSITIVE that means nothing.

They were all asleep and husband/wife/son are happy to vouch for each other, BUT YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

So, here is a nutcase pedophile who admitted to it, and, surprise, surprise, his handrwiting looks VERY much like the RN!!

But of course, we all know he didn't do it don't we??

Would you really expect them to point a finger at each other? Of course they will say they are all asleep.
NO one matched the RN handwriting to ANYONE (except Patsy). I don't care whose handwriting "looked like" it. If JMK had written it, there was plenty of opportunity to have as many experts as they wanted to try to match him to the RN.
And NOTHING at the crime scene or anywhere else in the house matched JMK. His DNA was NOWHERE at the crime scene.
The only link between JB and JMK is in his sick perverted mind (and the minds of those who insist on his guilt despite a complete lack of physical evidence).
Just as claiming you are innocent does not mean that you are- (everyone in prison is "innocent" according to them)- publicly claiming you are guilty especially of a high-profile crime like this, doesn't mean you are guilty.

 

[MurriFlower]

Would you really expect them to point a finger at each other? Of course they will say they are all asleep.

Likewise JMK's wife said he was with her. Look I don't know anything about JMK except he's obviously a troubled man/woman who (rightly or wrongly) had a four year conversation with someone about his involvement in the murder. Yep, he's a wacko, pedophile, cunning, intelligent, dangerous. That's no reason to excuse him from any involvement, cause this is just the type of person who COULD have done it, (taking off your RDI blinkers for a while).

NO one matched the RN handwriting to ANYONE (except Patsy). I don't care whose handwriting "looked like" it. If JMK had written it, there was plenty of opportunity to have as many experts as they wanted to try to match him to the RN.

I think there were quite a few people who noticed the similarity of his writing, you don't need to be an expert to see it, but a bit like the IDI on here, they were ridiculed and just went away.

And NOTHING at the crime scene or anywhere else in the house matched JMK. His DNA was NOWHERE at the crime scene.

Not so sure that's true. I'd say the BPD didn't find anything to link him, but then again, they weren't really looking were they?? Certainly apparently the DNA didn't match, but he did say he was one of three people involved (this is before he was extradited). Obviously the murderer left next to no evidence that has been able to be matched (RDI and IDI) sufficiently to indicate the killer, so RDI's continual assertion there is no IDI evidence is not true (as we still have the unmatched DNA).

The only link between JB and JMK is in his sick perverted mind (and the minds of those who insist on his guilt despite a complete lack of physical evidence).

It's very funny to read you think because he's sick and perverted therefore so are the people who think he is guilty. I refer you to my previous comments about the RN handwriting.

Just as claiming you are innocent does not mean that you are- (everyone in prison is "innocent" according to them)- publicly claiming you are guilty especially of a high-profile crime like this, doesn't mean you are guilty.

No all true, but simplistic. JMK spent a long time telling someone how he was involved, he didn't call the cops, or the papers, but spoke to a person who he contacted via email. He did not give away his location, that was discovered by investigators. So therefore, he wasn't seeking publicity from his initial confessions. He wasn't 'giving himself up' at all. From what I understand, he was trying to contact the parents, whether it was genuine remorse or just to taunt them further, I haven't yet decided. It was apparently a media circus (as was everything attached to this crime) when he was returned to USA. So, rather then deny his confession, he just played it up, changed his story frequently and IMO cleverly ended up getting written off as a nutcase instead of being scrutinised very closely.

 

[BBB167893]

Would you really expect them to point a finger at each other? Of course they will say they are all asleep.
NO one matched the RN handwriting to ANYONE (except Patsy). I don't care whose handwriting "looked like" it. If JMK had written it, there was plenty of opportunity to have as many experts as they wanted to try to match him to the RN.

Exactly. No official analysis of his writing was performed. The DA would have been within her rights to order one. (I get the feeling, though, that ML didn't put much stock in document examination. Lucky for PR that she didn't!)

 

[BBB167893]

Likewise JMK's wife said he was with her.

That's a bit different. She doesn't even like him. AND she wasn't a potential suspect herself.

Yep, he's a wacko, pedophile, cunning, intelligent, dangerous. That's no reason to excuse him from any involvement, cause this is just the type of person who COULD have done it, (taking off your RDI blinkers for a while).

Here we go. And by that logic, I'm assuming the Rs are not the "type" of people who could have done this? I tell you, I've had it up to HERE (taps eyebrows) with that. Murri, you just nailed why the ex-DA was so hot to pursue this guy: he fits the preconceived notions about child victimizers that a lot of people have, including the ex-DA, by her own admission. THAT is precisely WHY this case is in the damn lousy shape it's in, because of BS like that!

So you'll have to excuse me, but I find it highly ironic for someone in the IDI camp to accuse ANYONE else of wearing blinders! "People in glass houses," you know.

I think there were quite a few people who noticed the similarity of his writing, you don't need to be an expert to see it,

And yet, somehow, that doesn't apply to PR? You'll have to explain that one.

Not so sure that's true. I'd say the BPD didn't find anything to link him, but then again, they weren't really looking were they??

You can't blame this one on the BPD, Murri. The pro-Ramsey ex-DA had cut them out of the action LONG before anyone had ever heard of Mr.--or is is Ms.?--Karr. This albatross is going to hang around her neck for life.

(as we still have the unmatched DNA).

Lucky for the Rs, too!

 

[cynic]

JMK spent a long time telling someone how he was involved, he didn't call the cops, or the papers, but spoke to a person who he contacted via email. He did not give away his location, that was discovered by investigators. So therefore, he wasn't seeking publicity from his initial confessions. He wasn't 'giving himself up' at all. From what I understand, he was trying to contact the parents, whether it was genuine remorse or just to taunt them further, I haven't yet decided. It was apparently a media circus (as was everything attached to this crime) when he was returned to USA. So, rather then deny his confession, he just played it up, changed his story frequently and IMO cleverly ended up getting written off as a nutcase instead of being scrutinised very closely.

We went over this on another thread, read his “confession.”
No need to get into DNA analysis. His version of events doesn’t pass the sniff test.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/newworld/johnkarr.pdf
Some “highlights:”
“Karr said he waited until he believed all occupants of the home were asleep then entered into JonBenets bedroom obtained her from her bed as she was sleeping and carried the sleeping child down a stairwell into a basement level room. Within the room JonBenet was placed on his lap and he spoke with her and stroked her hair.”
“Karr added he placed underwear or "knickers" onto JonBenet that he brought with him. The underwear brought by Karr was several sizes too large for JonBenet.”
Lacy & company read this cr@p and still had the audacity to bring this sick freak back to the USA, first class, no less. How desperate do you have to be to exonerate the Ramseys? Apparently that desperate.
And people complain about the incompetence of the BPD’s investigation, Lacy’s investigative debacle made the BPD look like superstars by comparison.

 

[DeeDee249]

We went over this on another thread, read his “confession.”
No need to get into DNA analysis. His version of events doesn’t pass the sniff test.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/newworld/johnkarr.pdf
Some “highlights:”
“Karr said he waited until he believed all occupants of the home were asleep then entered into JonBenets bedroom obtained her from her bed as she was sleeping and carried the sleeping child down a stairwell into a basement level room. Within the room JonBenet was placed on his lap and he spoke with her and stroked her hair.”
“Karr added he placed underwear or "knickers" onto JonBenet that he brought with him. The underwear brought by Karr was several sizes too large for JonBenet.”
Lacy & company read this cr@p and still had the audacity to bring this sick freak back to the USA, first class, no less. How desperate do you have to be to exonerate the Ramseys? Apparently that desperate.
And people complain about the incompetence of the BPD’s investigation, Lacy’s investigative debacle made the BPD look like superstars by comparison.

This is all, ALL, stuff that he read from the same sources we have. This sick #@%^& was just running it through his mind the way he WISHED it had happened.
Patsy ADMITTED buying those panties. They sent the rest of them (allegedly) to LE years later. NO ONE suggested that Patsy did not say those were the same panties she bought on her trip to Bloomingdale's (Bloomies) just weeks before.

 

[cynic]

This is all, ALL, stuff that he read from the same sources we have. This sick #@%^& was just running it through his mind the way he WISHED it had happened.
Patsy ADMITTED buying those panties. The sent the rest of them (allegedly) to LE years later. NO ONE suggested that Patsy did not say those were the same panties she bought on her trip to Bloomingdale's (Bloomies) just weeks before.

Exactly, it underscores ML’s desperation to pin this on someone, anyone but a Ramsey.

 

[MurriFlower]

Exactly. No official analysis of his writing was performed. The DA would have been within her rights to order one. (I get the feeling, though, that ML didn't put much stock in document examination. Lucky for PR that she didn't!)

Yes, that was the point I tried to make, "not being able to be excluded" is hardly a "match". There would be hundreds of thousands of people who would fit in that category. I don't put much stock in handwriting analysis either, but you can see similarities between the RN and JMK without needing to be an "expert document examiner". Certainly, I think from what I have seen on line, I'd place him closer to being the likely writer than PR.

 

[MurriFlower]

That's a bit different. She doesn't even like him. AND she wasn't a potential suspect herself.

Well, I don't think whether she "liked" him or not is really the point. Perhaps she had other reasons not to want him to be guilty.

Here we go. And by that logic, I'm assuming the Rs are not the "type" of people who could have done this? I tell you, I've had it up to HERE (taps eyebrows) with that.

Tapping forehead is what I've been doing recently also. I'm up to further up now with you guys.

Murri, you just nailed why the ex-DA was so hot to pursue this guy: he fits the preconceived notions about child victimizers that a lot of people have, including the ex-DA, by her own admission. THAT is precisely WHY this case is in the damn lousy shape it's in, because of BS like that!

You are so fond of Occams Razor, until it looks like shaving too close to RDI. Some nutcase is found who reckons he did it and you can't wait to see him walk, cause it'd interfere with your linching of the Rs. This case is in such lousy shape because of lousy policework, caused by an incorrect assumption that the parents were the murderers.

So you'll have to excuse me, but I find it highly ironic for someone in the IDI camp to accuse ANYONE else of wearing blinders! "People in glass houses," you know.

Everyone here is blind to anything they don't believe, but I think it's unfair to accuse me of being unwilling to consider other possibilities -- I've looked at every angle I can think of so far trying to find a solution to this crime.

And yet, somehow, that doesn't apply to PR? You'll have to explain that one.

Not able to exclude is not the same thing as matched.

You can't blame this one on the BPD, Murri. The pro-Ramsey ex-DA had cut them out of the action LONG before anyone had ever heard of Mr.--or is is Ms.?--Karr. This albatross is going to hang around her neck for life.

Too late, I already did.

Lucky for the Rs, too!

Not luck, EVIDENCE!!

 

[MurriFlower]

We went over this on another thread, read his “confession.”
No need to get into DNA analysis. His version of events doesn’t pass the sniff test.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/thesmokinggun.com/newworld/johnkarr.pdf
Some “highlights:”
“Karr said he waited until he believed all occupants of the home were asleep then entered into JonBenets bedroom obtained her from her bed as she was sleeping and carried the sleeping child down a stairwell into a basement level room. Within the room JonBenet was placed on his lap and he spoke with her and stroked her hair.”
“Karr added he placed underwear or "knickers" onto JonBenet that he brought with him. The underwear brought by Karr was several sizes too large for JonBenet.”
Lacy & company read this cr@p and still had the audacity to bring this sick freak back to the USA, first class, no less. How desperate do you have to be to exonerate the Ramseys? Apparently that desperate.
And people complain about the incompetence of the BPD’s investigation, Lacy’s investigative debacle made the BPD look like superstars by comparison.

I think there was a lot more discussed over four years than this. Yep, he's a nutcase alright, but a clever one.

 

[MurriFlower]

This is all, ALL, stuff that he read from the same sources we have. This sick #@%^& was just running it through his mind the way he WISHED it had happened.
Patsy ADMITTED buying those panties. They sent the rest of them (allegedly) to LE years later. NO ONE suggested that Patsy did not say those were the same panties she bought on her trip to Bloomingdale's (Bloomies) just weeks before.

Don't be too surprised when you find out things YOU KNOW, you don't really know at all.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Snipped from Murri:

"You are so fond of Occams Razor, until it looks like shaving too close to RDI. Some nutcase is found who reckons he did it and you can't wait to see him walk, cause it'd interfere with your linching of the Rs. This case is in such lousy shape because of lousy policework, caused by an incorrect assumption that the parents were the murderers." (BBM)
Personally I would have been thrilled if he were guilty: case solved, parents incapable of doing these things to their daughter, one less megaperv on the streets.

"Everyone here is blind to anything they don't believe..."
Making all-encompassing, generalized assumptions about people is a dangerous game. I personally am not blind. I've sat here and read and considered even the most far-out notions presented (although the notion of the feds and alter beauty queens did have me looking around for the Candid Camera).

Perhaps if some IDI threw less stones and more facts that bolstered up their take on things, their theories would get more credence.

 

[feddup]

Yes, that was the point I tried to make, "not being able to be excluded" is hardly a "match". There would be hundreds of thousands of people who would fit in that category. I don't put much stock in handwriting analysis either, but you can see similarities between the RN and JMK without needing to be an "expert document examiner". Certainly, I think from what I have seen on line, I'd place him closer to being the likely writer than PR.

He definately is a nutcase and when the news first came out i thought they had finally caught the killer but even JR didnt seem too excited.
I think he falls under the category of crazy who likes to confess to famous murders? The prob was no one could place him in Boulder on that night.

 

[madeleine]

Wasn't ML's excuse (for bringing him back to the US) that he KNEW stuff about the murder that was never made public?Still confused about that.After his DNA didn't match and after they couldn't place him in Boulder....what happened with all the stuff he "knew"??Wasn't this the reason they brought him back?Cause anyone can claim he/she killed JB,why was HE so special?You gotta have something on him in order to put him on a plane in cuffs,right?Or was this another silly mistake?

Not saying he did it,I just want an explanation for what ML did.One that makes sense.

It's either he knew nothing new...but then why bring him back,on what grounds....

Or he knew something......and if so,what and from whom?And why didn't we hear about it.

 

[madeleine]

So if I'm going to a 3d world country and end up with no money for the flight ticket I need to come back,I just call the Boulder DA,claim I killed JB and voila,I get a first class flight and free champaign? :waitasec:

yes,silly,silly

still.............isn't this what happened here?

 

[madeleine]

Re JMK's handwriting

yes it does look similar to the one in the RN

so does Chris W's

so does PR's

so does JR's


IMO (((shrug)))

that's my problem with handwriting analysis and handwriting "experts"

 

[otg]

Look for your self

So, here is a nutcase pedophile who admitted to it, and, surprise, surprise, his handrwiting looks VERY much like the RN!!

But of course, we all know he didn't do it don't we??

Murri Flower,

.... Listen carefully! Some groups of individuals think that I might have written another famous note. I respect their opinion but not the purpose it serves.

.... Don’ t try to grow a brain, Murri. You are not the only smart cat around. Use that good, southern [FONT=&quot]([/FONT]waaayyyyy southern [FONT=&quot]--[/FONT] like southern hemisphere[FONT=&quot])[/FONT] common sense of yours. It is up to you now, Flower!

..................................... Victory!

........................... o.t.g.
.