IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #14

[Sunlight]

Okay..while searching around for cold cases in the area, I came upon this older thread from WS:

IA IA - Eugene Martin, 14, Des Moines, 12 Aug 1984 - Missing Paperboy - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Very interesting thread. In post 15, there is a reference to stuff that happened in the Waterloo area, Black Hawk County...by an anonymous source in an article that I cannot retrieve...just interesting that there may have been a pedo ring specifically in the area way back when...powerful people paying big bucks for kids. Maybe someone "influential" in the community still partakes. MOO

 

[Sailorsgirl]

It's been confusing whether the dogs tracked on the shore or on the trail, but here we see the dog along the shore, followed by an officer carrying gloves ... presumably to pick up anything located by the tracking dog.

"Authorities drained the lake Tuesday after FBI dogs detected the girls' scent near where their bicycles were found four days earlier.

FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault said the reaction from the dogs Monday night indicated a "strong possibility" the girls had been at the lake, less than a mile from their grandmother's house where they were last reported seen Friday. However, Breault said because there were no confirmed sightings at the lake, authorities couldn't be certain."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/17/fbi-dogs-join-search-for-missing-iowa-girls/#ixzz23CsSB7Yu

Hmmm ... that doesn't seem to answer what side of the fence they were on ... grrr. Wish they could have told us at least that much!

 

[Mimiof8]

Anyone wanna come downstairs to transcribe?

 

[Jules71]

I can post a screen shot if anyone is interested ...

I already did. Post #287:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #14

Thanks though! :rocker:

 

[otto]

Hmmm ... that doesn't seem to answer what side of the fence they were on ... grrr. Wish they could have told us at least that much!

If that is the tracking dog that tracked the girls to the lake ... such that police decided to then drain the lake ... then there is plenty of shore on which to walk. Additionally, if the dogs tracked to the lake and that led police to drain the lake, the I think it's safe to assume that the dogs were at the water, not just the trail.

 

[superbee]

SBM

Keep in mind that while the area in back of the stores looked deserted in that video, there is actually a row of houses facing the back of the stores. Elizabeth's house was just barely out of view, in fact.

The deserted looking area behind the stores isn't actually an alley. It's more like a loading dock zone.

I'm not saying that it would have been impossible to grab the girls from there but it would have been right in front of a row of houses with full views of the area, including Elizabeth's house.

I agree with tossing the sightings by TG and the Carpenters. Or, at least, not taking them into account at this time.

Makes me wonder what eye witness statements LE collected from people who chose (wisely) not to come forward to the media.

Just wondering, are they the front yards, or back yards, of the homes that face that street-alley-loading zone? I wonder if there is an area along that street that security cameras do not cover? Could the girls have been grabbed along that street and not been on camera?

 

[nursebeeme]

If that is the tracking dog that tracked the girls to the lake ... such that police decided to then drain the lake ... then there is plenty of shore on which to walk. Additionally, if the dogs tracked to the lake and that led police to drain the lake, the I think it's safe to assume that the dogs were at the water, not just the trail.

fbi would not discuss the dogs or what they found.. all we know is what the family allegedly thought the dogs did.. which I take with a grain of salt if LE says they are keeping it close to the vest

 

[Sailorsgirl]

The only problem is that we don't know if that's what made them drain the lake and we don't know if the dogs, even if they were on that side of the fence, tracked anything there. I saw on one of the maps a poster did that the dogs appeared to track on the trail to a wooded area, which is why I had asked, back then, if there was a driveway or parking area at the pump house (I didn't even know it was a pump house. I thought it was a business). The wooded area is not too far from the back of the pump house or Maiden Lane or even the fields to the east of the woods.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

fbi would not discuss the dogs or what they found.. all we know is what the family allegedly thought the dogs did.. which I take with a grain of salt if LE says they are keeping it close to the vest

I wonder if that is a sign that they found/tracked something. I mean, if they didn't catch a scent then wouldn't the FBI just say that? This is the first case I've followed here that isn't something that happened more than a decade ago (read a few old cases and one from my area). I really don't know if there is a norm when it comes to releasing info.

 

[otto]

I wonder if that is a sign that they found/tracked something. I mean, if they didn't catch a scent then wouldn't the FBI just say that? This is the first case I've followed here that isn't something that happened more than a decade ago (read a few old cases and one from my area). I really don't know if there is a norm when it comes to releasing info.

It's my impression that the rules regarding the release of investigative information differ from one state to the next. Maybe someone local knows the laws in Iowa ... but if I were speculating, I'd say that it seems like investigative information is released if it is believed that it will lead to new information, but is otherwise withheld in order to protect the integrity of the investigation ... meaning that it's impossible to speculate or draw conclusions based on the fact that some information is withheld.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

It's my impression that the rules regarding the release of investigative information differ from one state to the next. Maybe someone local knows the laws in Iowa ... but if I were speculating, I'd say that it seems like investigative information is released if it is believed that it will lead to new information, but is otherwise withheld in order to protect the integrity of the investigation.

Thank you. I assume that in a lot of cases, physical evidence is withheld to protect the investigation. I just didn't think dogs tracking would be considered physical evidence.

 

[GrainneDhu]

amen to that.. and actually that is usually my mantra here... it is not rational to put your mind into that of a perp.. they do not think the way that "normal" people" do.

"...and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

--Friedrich Nietsche, 1844-1900

 

[otto]

Thank you. I assume that in a lot of cases, physical evidence is withheld to protect the investigation. I just didn't think dogs tracking would be considered physical evidence.

I agree that the dog tracking info shouldn't be protected information, but it may be more along the lines of a "need to know" situation when it comes to informing the public. We know that the dogs tracked at the bikes and the lake, and we heard from various family members that the dogs went to the Maiden Lane area. I'm guessing that because the dog is tracking along the shore prior to the lake draining, and the officer is carrying gloves, that this may be a photo related to the tracking of the dog from the bikes to Maiden Lane ... which of course supports the theory that I'm favoring right now ... so I may be jumping to assumptions that support what I want to believe.

 

[Copper]

How big are the biggest pedo rings? Are small are the smallest? LE having a booth in DM (Des Moines for non Iowa folk) and asking for anyone who might be even the least bit involved has me thinking... is it possible LE is looking to break the pedo ring and is looking for someone who has come into contact with the girls after the abduction?

 

[Sailorsgirl]

I agree that the dog tracking info shouldn't be protected information, but it may be more along the lines of a "need to know" situation when it comes to informing the public. We know that the dogs tracked at the bikes and the lake, and we heard from various family members that the dogs went to the Maiden Lane area. I'm guessing that because the dog is tracking along the shore prior to the lake draining, and the officer is carrying gloves, that this may be a photo related to the tracking of the dog from the bikes to Maiden Lane ... which of course supports the theory that I'm favoring right now ... so I may be jumping to assumptions that support what I want to believe.

LOL ... that's exactly what I was doing when I assumed the dogs tracked on the trail to the wooded area near Maiden Lane. Either way, our assumptions are almost the same ... just a different side of the fence. Do you think it was a stranger or someone the girls may have had contact with?

 

[nursebeeme]

"...and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

--Friedrich Nietsche, 1844-1900

or more like to gaze into the abyss you have to think *like* the abyss.. not necessarily that you become it.

Nietsche sure had a way with words but not sure that thinking like a perp makes you one

:moo:

 

[otto]

LOL ... that's exactly what I was doing when I assumed the dogs tracked on the trail to the wooded area near Maiden Lane. Either way, our assumptions are almost the same ... just a different side of the fence. Do you think it was a stranger or someone the girls may have had contact with?

I think that this is a stranger abduction ... someone familiar with the area that happened to be there, happened to be looking for trouble, happened to notice the two girls on their bikes and decided that they were vulnerable and could be easily victimized. Since the bikes were at the unlocked gate, and the girls were (according to the family) tracked to Maiden Lane on the lakeside of the fence, I think it makes a lot more sense for the perp to take the girls through the gate than to walk them 200 feet down the trail to where the fence ends.

If there were two perps, with one a few feet down the trail as the girls passed, then the girls could have been trapped by one perp in front at the open gate, one perp in back preventing their escape. That would have been it ... no way out.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I would think that anyone on their lunch hour, who did not return to work, would stand out big time. If not at once, by the following week or so, when people were thinking about this case all the time locally.

Still, I wish LE would harp on those things that people should be thinking about; people who acted oddly that weekend, were not where they were supposed to be, were cleaning a vehicle, etc...by now, memories are stale. We know how bad witnesses can be, even at the time. As with the case in England, someone swore they saw the little girl, Tia, leave the house on the Friday morning, when now it seems apparent that she never did, as apparently her body was there all the time. But the passage of time makes it even worse.

I agree with you, clu.

However, I also remember one of the first things I noticed the first time I read The Stranger Beside Me by Ann Rule. After the Lake Sammamish abductions, where Bundy approached at least seven different women and successfully grabbed two of them, there was a lot of evidence for his friends to tie him to the suspect.

And yet, no one was comfortable turning Bundy's name in to the tip line. Even Ann Rule, former police officer and long time crime writer, felt really terrible about voicing her suspicions. Bundy's GF at the time went back and forth, sometimes suspecting, sometimes feeling like she was having some sort of mental breakdown to suspect an innocent man like her BF.

It was a difficult emotional struggle for each person who turned Bundy's name in.

And I don't think that is something that was unique to Bundy. I think that for most people, suspecting someone you'd call a friend of doing something horrific is really difficult to deal with. I think for many people, it would be a struggle between their intellect telling them "hey, this is suspicious, turn it in" and their heart telling them "this is your friend, who would never do something like this."

It might make it easier for someone who is emotionally conflicted about a suspicion to hear "if your tip doesn't turn out to be relevant, no one will suffer for it. We do our best to handle tips in a discreet, professional manner."

 

[Copper]

I think that this is a stranger abduction ... someone familiar with the area that happened to be there, happened to be looking for trouble, happened to notice the two girls on their bikes and decided that they were vulnerable and could be easily victimized. Since the bikes were at the unlocked gate, and the girls were (according to the family) tracked to Maiden Lane on the lakeside of the fence, I think it makes a lot more sense for the perp to take the girls through the gate than to walk them 200 feet down the trail to where the fence ends.

If there were two perps, with one a few feet down the trail as the girls passed, then the girls could have been trapped by one perp in front at the open gate, one perp in back preventing their escape. That would have been it ... no way out.

I've never been a little girl, so I don't know. And it seems like a thousand centuries since I was 10 years old. Anyone have a guess, if the girls were trapped, would the leech infested water been an option for escape? From the before and after pictures, it doesn't look the bottom of the lake drops off drastically. Would wading into the water be an option?

I'm not suggesting that's what happened. But since it probably didn't happen, that might eliminate some scenarios, if the girls were willing to go into the water.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

I agree with you, clu.

However, I also remember one of the first things I noticed the first time I read The Stranger Beside Me by Ann Rule. After the Lake Sammamish abductions, where Bundy approached at least seven different women and successfully grabbed two of them, there was a lot of evidence for his friends to tie him to the suspect.

And yet, no one was comfortable turning Bundy's name in to the tip line. Even Ann Rule, former police officer and long time crime writer, felt really terrible about voicing her suspicions. Bundy's GF at the time went back and forth, sometimes suspecting, sometimes feeling like she was having some sort of mental breakdown to suspect an innocent man like her BF.

It was a difficult emotional struggle for each person who turned Bundy's name in.

And I don't think that is something that was unique to Bundy. I think that for most people, suspecting someone you'd call a friend of doing something horrific is really difficult to deal with. I think for many people, it would be a struggle between their intellect telling them "hey, this is suspicious, turn it in" and their heart telling them "this is your friend, who would never do something like this."

It might make it easier for someone who is emotionally conflicted about a suspicion to hear "if your tip doesn't turn out to be relevant, no one will suffer for it. We do our best to handle tips in a discreet, professional manner."

Thanks for this post. It puts a lot into perspective.