IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #14

[hambirg]

Between my two scenarios, it is hard to choose. And because the different profiles would lead to very different statistics as to what happened to the girls and where they are, I wish I knew which it was.

A random sexual predator is statistically more likely to kill the girls rather quickly and dump them close to the murder scene, wherever that might be. They usually don't put much effort into trying to hide the victims. The perp would fit the profile. . .possibly loner, drifter, etc. They might be sloppy. . .show up on Craigslist personals, have questionable FB pages. . .show signs of desperation, etc

BUT if this was an abduction by human traffickers, the statistics and profile will be vastly different. They will be pros in abduction. . .it will appear like a job. . .professional. They will know the ins and outs of using tools like Google Maps. They will pay attention to details like where they make purchases, fill up for gas. They will be keenly aware of being captured on camera. They might be well connected and able to talk themselves out of situations with calm ease. . like traffic stops or road block checks.

I am still open to both scenarios. . .BUT (big but) the FBI statement that they have evidence that the girls are still alive and that they don't think the time that has passed will matter makes me think that they have reason to believe that this is a trafficker situation. A sexual predator often kills the victim(s) within the first few hours. Even if they don't, like in the Groene case, there is no knowing when they will kill the children. A human trafficker, on the other hand, is vested in keeping the children alive, because they are a commodity to them. They don't want to kill the children, they want to sell them.

The fact that LE isn't actively searching the area anymore also leads me to believe the trafficker situation. If it was a sexual predator it would be likely that the girls may be in dumped in the surrounding area. But if it is a trafficker situation, the girls are likely in a completely different area of the country. . .maybe even out of the country, but I hope not. Moved, moved, and moved some more.

So the question is how do we find them? It has to be undercover operations. .things like that Anonymous pedo monitoring group. I can only hope that the girls show up on the radar. lease:

 

[hambirg]

I am hoping that a new thread for Lyric and Elizabeth will be the thread that brings these girls home.

My DD is Lyric's age and she has been whining all summer about my refusal to allow her a Facebook page.

My reply is that it's not allowed by FB, and more importantly, not allowed by ME, the meanest mom in the whole wide world.

I am not saying these girls went missing because of their FB pages. But I saying that being a WSer makes me VEHEMENT about not allowing my 10 yo access to social networking.

Maybe she will hate me less when she is 35 and has a grade school daughter of her own.

The sick evil monsters that took these sweet girls are responsible for what they did, but I just want to feather my nest in any way I can, and if that means being a lame parent, I am Team Lame! Happily!

BBM

Welcome to to the meanest Mom club!!!! :woohoo:

I really think that those of us that frequent this forum have an understanding about the evil in this world that others don't. I walk a tight rope between preparing and educating my kids, because they will at some time have to function independently in this world, and just locking them in their rooms forever.

 

[Marilynilpa]

This is a clear photo gallery,probably a repost, but was wondering what business/building was being looked at in pic. 13?
http://www.katu.com/news/national/F...a-girls-162733916.html?tab=gallery&c=y&img=12

I don't think I've seen this particular series of photos, but I don't always click on the photo links.

Maybe Ollipop, our man on the scene, can look at this tomorrow and identify it. It looks like it has some type of overhang or awning that is an unusual color, so hopefully he'll identify it.

 

[asd<3]

just wondering .... does anyone know if they searched the mitchell sandpitts area or the hidden lake behind aspros?

 

[Jules71]

I don't have anything new to contribute... but I am still here waiting for these girls to come home.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[cckeepsakes]

Was away for a few days. Was really hoping I'd come back and we would have heard something. Amazing how quickly this goes to silence.

**Bring Lyric & Lizzy Home**

 

[Squeeze]

Going west on I-380 past Evansdale, you're heading towards Waterloo and Cedar Falls. So there are gas stations not far heading west.

Going east on I-380 past Evansdale, I don't think so. At least, not before where you can turn south to follow the intereste to Cedar Rapids and eventually I-80 (which is what I do). If you keep going east on US 20, I have no idea how far the next gas station is.

EDIT: Let me add that Eastern Iowa is relatively well populated. I would imagine it would be hard go more than... twenty miles in a straight line between gas stations.

Just to the east of meyers lake is an exit with a couple of truckstop-like gas stations. Must people would probably stop here. The river forest road exit, eastbound, was closed because of the construction. I believe the westbound as well. But, you could get on the interstate from river forest road, westbound. So getting in and out of this area would not have been quick and easy.

 

[SouthernMom]

uote:
Originally Posted by SouthernMom
And then there is Joseph Duncan, III, who kidnapped the Groene children and may have had a preference, but it didn't seem to be apparent when he was choosing a child to abduct and murder. It is possible that the sexual motivation and an opportunity to act on it is what matters most in these crimes.

Originally posted by Confusion
That's really a different thing. Weren't those kids taken from their home after the rest of the family was murdered? Just grabbing 2 kids off the street in broad daylight is something else. MOO
_________________

He had victims prior to the Groene children.

 

[SouthernMom]

Hoping and praying still that these two sweet girls, Elizabeth and Lyric, will find their way home soon. Good nite all.

 

[hollyblue]

Between my two scenarios, it is hard to choose. And because the different profiles would lead to very different statistics as to what happened to the girls and where they are, I wish I knew which it was.

A random sexual predator is statistically more likely to kill the girls rather quickly and dump them close to the murder scene, wherever that might be. They usually don't put much effort into trying to hide the victims. The perp would fit the profile. . .possibly loner, drifter, etc. They might be sloppy. . .show up on Craigslist personals, have questionable FB pages. . .show signs of desperation, etc

BUT if this was an abduction by human traffickers, the statistics and profile will be vastly different. They will be pros in abduction. . .it will appear like a job. . .professional. They will know the ins and outs of using tools like Google Maps. They will pay attention to details like where they make purchases, fill up for gas. They will be keenly aware of being captured on camera. They might be well connected and able to talk themselves out of situations with calm ease. . like traffic stops or road block checks.

I am still open to both scenarios. . .BUT (big but) the FBI statement that they have evidence that the girls are still alive and that they don't think the time that has passed will matter makes me think that they have reason to believe that this is a trafficker situation. A sexual predator often kills the victim(s) within the first few hours. Even if they don't, like in the Groene case, there is no knowing when they will kill the children. A human trafficker, on the other hand, is vested in keeping the children alive, because they are a commodity to them. They don't want to kill the children, they want to sell them.

The fact that LE isn't actively searching the area anymore also leads me to believe the trafficker situation. If it was a sexual predator it would be likely that the girls may be in dumped in the surrounding area. But if it is a trafficker situation, the girls are likely in a completely different area of the country. . .maybe even out of the country, but I hope not. Moved, moved, and moved some more.

So the question is how do we find them? It has to be undercover operations. .things like that Anonymous pedo monitoring group. I can only hope that the girls show up on the radar. lease:

Search warrants, search warrants, search warrants. LE is very busy,.IMO.

IMO, trafficking or child *advertiser censored*....and it may include people involved in drugs also.

I pray every night not only for the girls safety, but for LE in cracking this case. LE in Mickey's case had the video of the DWT which produced leads from several good sources of just the general public being aware. I'm hoping so bad the same thing happened here and LE has rec'd some good leads and are just digging their heels in. lease:

 

[Confusion]

uote:
Originally Posted by SouthernMom
And then there is Joseph Duncan, III, who kidnapped the Groene children and may have had a preference, but it didn't seem to be apparent when he was choosing a child to abduct and murder. It is possible that the sexual motivation and an opportunity to act on it is what matters most in these crimes.

Originally posted by Confusion
That's really a different thing. Weren't those kids taken from their home after the rest of the family was murdered? Just grabbing 2 kids off the street in broad daylight is something else. MOO
_________________

He had victims prior to the Groene children.

Sorry, I was living up to my name there (a bit confused about what you were saying.) You're right about him not seeming to only choose one age or sex for his victims.

 

[GrainneDhu]

uote:
Originally Posted by SouthernMom
And then there is Joseph Duncan, III, who kidnapped the Groene children and may have had a preference, but it didn't seem to be apparent when he was choosing a child to abduct and murder. It is possible that the sexual motivation and an opportunity to act on it is what matters most in these crimes.

Originally posted by Confusion
That's really a different thing. Weren't those kids taken from their home after the rest of the family was murdered? Just grabbing 2 kids off the street in broad daylight is something else. MOO
_________________

He had victims prior to the Groene children.

Not only that, he did grab two little girls in broad daylight. He confessed to abducting and killing SammieJo White, 11, and her friend Carmen Cubias, 9.

He wasn't taken to trial because he was tried in the Groene case first, then the Anthony Martinez case and already had a couple death sentences.

For anyone who thinks that grabbing two girls from a relatively isolated spot would be too risky, consider Anthony Martinez. He was 10 years old, playing in his own front yard with a group of friends when Duncan approached asking for help looking for a lost cat. When the group refused to help, Duncan grabbed Anthony Martinez and forced him into his truck at knifepoint.

You'd think that with all those eyewitnesses and a partial fingerprint, Duncan would have been caught. But it was actually not until 2005, when bloggers made the connection between the composite sketch and the truck description with Duncan and his vehicle.

My point is, there's no such thing as "too risky" to a psychopath. There's only "can I do it?"

 

[northxnorthwest]

I hope LE and the FBI are monitoring Internet "dark nets" and on the lookout for the girls on inappropriate web sites. Some "dark nets" illegal guns, any drug imaginable, child *advertiser censored*, etc can be purchased and traded. This does seem more and more like something organized and the girls being alive = $$$ to the perps.

 

[Confusion]

Not only that, he did grab two little girls in broad daylight. He confessed to abducting and killing SammieJo White, 11, and her friend Carmen Cubias, 9. Actually, he never did come right out and say he killed them (unless that happened very recently), and they disappeared at 8:30 pm or later. He was said to have talked about their deaths without coming out and confessing, and that there wasn't any real evidence that he had done it - although I'm sure everybody (including me) believes he did.
He wasn't taken to trial because he was tried in the Groene case first, then the Anthony Martinez case and already had a couple death sentences.

For anyone who thinks that grabbing two girls from a relatively isolated spot would be too risky, consider Anthony Martinez. He was 10 years old, playing in his own front yard with a group of friends when Duncan approached asking for help looking for a lost cat. When the group refused to help, Duncan grabbed Anthony Martinez and forced him into his truck at knifepoint.

You'd think that with all those eyewitnesses and a partial fingerprint, Duncan would have been caught. But it was actually not until 2005, when bloggers made the connection between the composite sketch and the truck description with Duncan and his vehicle.

My point is, there's no such thing as "too risky" to a psychopath. There's only "can I do it?" I'm not arguing that point either

I'm really not sure what any of the responses have to do with what I had actually posted. What I said was that most sexual predators have a preference for a certain type, and that it would be a bigger hassle to abduct 2 girls than it would one.

 

[MissouriGirl]

I hope LE and the FBI are monitoring Internet "dark nets" and on the lookout for the girls on inappropriate web sites. Some "dark nets" illegal guns, any drug imaginable, child *advertiser censored*, etc can be purchased and traded. This does seem more and more like something organized and the girls being alive = $$$ to the perps.

I was thinking that if it is some kind of trafficking or pedo ring, that maybe that's the "evidence" they have that they are alive, a video or image found on the scarier parts of the web?

 

[GrainneDhu]

I'm really not sure what any of the responses have to do with what I had actually posted. What I said was that most sexual predators have a preference for a certain type, and that it would be a bigger hassle to abduct 2 girls than it would one.

I hate to write this but...

To a few predators, two are a bonus rather than a hassle.

I am haunted by the thought that the perp may have been like Ted Bundy or Joseph Duncan. Someone whose preference in victims is for completely unconnected strangers because that makes for the most difficult type of case to solve.

I can't speak for the families, of course, but I know that for myself, I would rather know than go on in limbo.

Well, the harvest will be starting relatively soon. Corn will be early this year because of heat stress and drought. Soybeans may be more towards the usual time because there is still a chance that with some more rain, the beans will fill out the pods.

I dunno, though. My neighbour's beans (which surround my house) are puny, only about half the size they should be by this time of year. They are pathetic looking plants. I wish I could take my watering can out there and give each of them a good drink.

So, farmers will harvest when they harvest and that may reveal something.

Most of all, I hope that before long, there will be an answer, one way or the other.

 

[nikb]

I hope LE and the FBI are monitoring Internet "dark nets" and on the lookout for the girls on inappropriate web sites. Some "dark nets" illegal guns, any drug imaginable, child *advertiser censored*, etc can be purchased and traded. This does seem more and more like something organized and the girls being alive = $$$ to the perps.

I cannot imagine a more horrifying job than monitoring those sites. I'm sure or at least strongly hope LE IS monitoring those but wow.

Sorry if I missed a bunch of posts. I was super sick today and didn't have time to catch up so I just read the latest. So sad there's no "new" news yet. Although glad about the publicity at the fair. I hope it yields something new.

 

[TobyWong*]

Praying today is the day these girls are found.
So sad to wake up to the new thread still sitting on pg.1

 

[Marilynilpa]

Last night I was searching for info about child predators, and came across the website for Perverted-Justice. This is a group that tries to catch pedophiles by using highly trained volunteers who go into chat rooms and communicate with these perverts. You may have seen "To Catch a Predator" on Dateline - this is an offshoot of Perverted-Justice.

The whole point of this post is that on their website, there are transcripts of chat room conversations between adult volunteers who pose online as children, and the pedophiles who troll these chat rooms looking for victims. I am not faint-hearted in the least, but I have to say that what I read has disturbed me so much that I haven't been able to sleep. It is just terrible, and I could see from the transcripts how an adult male can "groom" a young girl (or boy). After my third transcript, I just couldn't continue.

I am so worried that someone like that may have "groomed" Lyric.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Last night I was searching for info about child predators, and came across the website for Perverted-Justice. This is a group that tries to catch pedophiles by using highly trained volunteers who go into chat rooms and communicate with these perverts. You may have seen "To Catch a Predator" on Dateline - this is an offshoot of Perverted-Justice.

The whole point of this post is that on their website, there are transcripts of chat room conversations between adult volunteers who pose online as children, and the pedophiles who troll these chat rooms looking for victims. I am not faint-hearted in the least, but I have to say that what I read has disturbed me so much that I haven't been able to sleep. It is just terrible, and I could see from the transcripts how an adult male can "groom" a young girl (or boy). After my third transcript, I just couldn't continue.

I am so worried that someone like that may have "groomed" Lyric.

One of the first things LE did was take the family computers.

I also worried about a pedophile grooming Lyric especially until I read this....LE would have been through those computers like a dose of salts and already traced anyone she was talking to.

We all need to be vigilant with our kids, ask questions, pry, set boundaries, be unpopular, join Team Suck.

My own kids thought the "pedo" thing was a hell of a joke. Kids are quite smart now and my kids especially are cynical as can be (wonder where they got that from) but even so I am not smug enough to think it couldn't happen.

My son was only 10 or so and had an online gaming friend. Of course I'm asking all the questions "how do you know he's a kid" and got told "relax mum hes *****ing about his mother".

Kids are smart, but adults are still smarter, even though they find this hard to believe...I only hope I've given my kids the tools to stay safe. All you can do is educate and hope for the best. BTW, it sounds like this family has done this - I'm thinking Aunt Tammy and her lessons on self defence.

Abductions are like being hit by lightening...you can do everything right yet still be a victim.

Tonight ws the first time I had to search for this thread. It is getting cool, if not cold. LE need to speak, even if they say nothing new. So frustrating.

lease: