IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #14

[LaylaD]

I knew someone would question that!

I haven't seen it indicated that these people have any drug or criminal issues, RSO affiliations, dysfunctional family or financial dynamics, no known connection to the girls or their family, thus no obvious reason to lie about what they saw. They appear to be law-abiding citizens just doing the right thing and reporting what they saw, no matter how relevant or irrelevant.

Don't read more into my statement than what I stated...and I wouldn't agree with your "no one" above.

TOS doesn't allow us to sleuth them.....

 

[hollyblue]

Are you using directions for a bike? I was able to map from the middle of Brovan to the area of the gate to the jetty area doing it this way. I got 1.3 miles, 8 minutes. HTH

I'm going to try it. I keep forgetting about the bike option on Google. Thanks!

 

[CoeTrawk]

So looks like we're good on the fact that it was the waterside gate instead of the woods gate. On the south side of the trail, this gate represents the quickest link between trail and water. Elsewhere one would have to deal with a fence, woods, or some open distance between water and pavement. We've already run with the idea that the girls were taken at the gate with a paddleboat. How about a backwards theory? The girls have been taken already and the perp uses a paddleboat to stage the bikes at that location? Unless those bikes were meant to be found, why not just huck 'em in the lake, or take them away as well, like the Cedar Rapids van people (apparently) tried to do?

Suppose the goal is to get the bikes beside the trail in order to suggest that the girls were there (if there is no bikes/purse, LE probably don't drain the lake and waste that week, etc.) Could the perp have put the bikes in his (stolen?) Paddle Boat, and used the gate to stage the bikes a s quickly as possible? Crossing the water seems less likely than walking or riding them on the trail, and from the water the perp could see down the trail in both directions to make sure no one is coming. If a jogger showed up in the distance, the boatman could just circle out and come back. That would get the girls' scent to the water's edge via the bikes, and the perp could chuck the purse on the lake side to further suggest the girls went thru the gate and into the lake.

Just a thought, given that apparently somebody's bikes were also seen on a curve, of which there are none by this ggate.

 

[hollyblue]

Thanks for that, I had been looking for the time of the white van.

One thing intrigued me, when they first put out the request for the driver to contact them...IIRC they said that the driver

"has information"

not that he may have, or they would like to eliminate him, but that he definitely knew something. It was strong, decisive language and made me believe that they were definitely hunting a white van.

Of course I can't find those original articles...

:banghead:

If anyone has a link, I would appreciate it.

I don't remember "driver" specifically, because they showed the video of Knief in the store and they said they wanted to talk to him. ?

 

[hambirg]

These are just my thoughts. It is a very tight timeline if we are assuming the girls were seen on cctv, then by Mr. C and then the bikes by TG. It doesn't mean that that isn't what happened, but it's just so darn tight.

Officially, the girls were last seen when they were caught on cctv at 12:15pm (12:11??? 12:19??? :banghead: ). What is confusing to me is that the girls are not seen by anyone else (besides Mr C) or caught on any other surveillance after that, even though they apparently road across town to the lake. I don't know Evansdale well enough to know if that is plausible.

 

[otto]

Which makes me think maybe they were left there (staged or not) to hint the girls were in the water, hoping to slow down wider searches. Maybe? IDK

It could have been someone familiar with Maiden Lane and surrounding area that was looking to abduct someone that day, Friday the 13th at noon, maybe thinking more people jog at noon. The location of the bikes and purse certainly suggests that this was designed to delay an abduction investigation, but it may also have been one of the easiest places to abduct someone if that person was familiar with Maiden Lane.

 

[hambirg]

So looks like we're good on the fact that it was the waterside gate instead of the woods gate. On the south side of the trail, this gate represents the quickest link between trail and water. Elsewhere one would have to deal with a fence, woods, or some open distance between water and pavement. We've already run with the idea that the girls were taken at the gate with a paddleboat. How about a backwards theory? The girls have been taken already and the perp uses a paddleboat to stage the bikes at that location? Unless those bikes were meant to be found, why not just huck 'em in the lake, or take them away as well, like the Cedar Rapids van people (apparently) tried to do?

Suppose the goal is to get the bikes beside the trail in order to suggest that the girls were there (if there is no bikes/purse, LE probably don't drain the lake and waste that week, etc.) Could the perp have put the bikes in his (stolen?) Paddle Boat, and used the gate to stage the bikes a s quickly as possible? Crossing the water seems less likely than walking or riding them on the trail, and from the water the perp could see down the trail in both directions to make sure no one is coming. If a jogger showed up in the distance, the boatman could just circle out and come back. That would get the girls' scent to the water's edge via the bikes, and the perp could chuck the purse on the lake side to further suggest the girls went thru the gate and into the lake.

Just a thought, given that apparently somebody's bikes were also seen on a curve, of which there are none by this ggate.

I don't think there was enough time. . .if we think TG's sighting is accurate. . .heck even semi-accurate.

This is kind of a theory. . I'm not sure what I think about it. . but I'll throw it out there. What if we have it backwards? What if the girls were at the lake, went through the gate to feed the ducks, skip rocks in the water. . whatever. They leave the lake close to 12, are seen by Mr C, are caught by the cctv AT 12:15ish banghead and then are seen speeding past the house. . .because they forgot the purse! They were watched and followed from the lake and abducted sometime shortly after they were seen on cctv and the bikes were dropped near the purse in the hopes that no one would realize the girls left the lake.

Eh. . that doesn't really work either, does it? :banghead:

 

[nikb]

Does anyone remember offhand what day it was that TG heard about the girls and contacted LE? If not, I can dig around and find it myself. It seems like it was a day or two later, and that's not really something that I'd make a mental not to keep track of when it happened. If he had also ridden there on Thursday and saw 2 bikes laying on the trail then, and heard about it on Sunday, it seems totally possible that he'd "remember" it being Friday just because it would seem so likely.

Whether he actually saw bikes there or not, it does seem likely that whatever happened it was before 1:00 or the girls would probably have been home or WC would be likely to have seen them when she drove around looking.

I've wondered the same thing. I've read that he reported it 1-2 days after, when he heard about the girls. I think there was some confusion that seeing the bikes is why he called his daughter, but it was totally unrelated as far as I can tell. I would think LE probably gave him a description or even pictures of the girls' bikes to confirm if that's what he saw, but it hasn't been reported.

Edited to add: saw this was already answered, so it was about 3 days later on that following Monday.

 

[Confusion]

These are just my thoughts. It is a very tight timeline if we are assuming the girls were seen on cctv, then by Mr. C and then the bikes by TG. It doesn't mean that that isn't what happened, but it's just so darn tight.

Officially, the girls were last seen when they were caught on cctv at 12:15pm (12:11??? 12:19??? :banghead: ). What is confusing to me is that the girls are not seen by anyone else (besides Mr C) or caught on any other surveillance after that, even though they apparently road across town to the lake. I don't know Evansdale well enough to know if that is plausible.

I'd also be interested in hearing if they have any evidence of what they were doing before the cctv video. Since the bike riders on the video seemed to be moving rather quickly, they may have been making an appearance and returning to wherever they were before.

 

[Sunlight]

I've wondered the same thing. I've read that he reported it 1-2 days after, when he heard about the girls. I think there was some confusion that seeing the bikes is why he called his daughter, but it was totally unrelated as far as I can tell. I would think LE probably gave him a description or even pictures of the girls' bikes to confirm if that's what he saw, but it hasn't been reported.

JMHO..I don't think LE would give a witness a description..more likely they would ask the witness to describe what was seen. If they can back up the info they get, they use it or keep it to themselves if they decide that is the best way to use it.

 

[Confusion]

I don't think there was enough time. . .if we think TG's sighting is accurate. . .heck even semi-accurate.

This is kind of a theory. . I'm not sure what I think about it. . but I'll throw it out there. What if we have it backwards? What if the girls were at the lake, went through the gate to feed the ducks, skip rocks in the water. . whatever. They leave the lake close to 12, are seen by Mr C, are caught by the cctv AT 12:15ish banghead and then are seen speeding past the house. . .because they forgot the purse! They were watched and followed from the lake and abducted sometime shortly after they were seen on cctv and the bikes were dropped near the purse in the hopes that no one would realize the girls left the lake.

Eh. . that doesn't really work either, does it? :banghead:

I had thought of something similar, but in my version, they got back to the lake to get the purse, but someone grabbed them before they got to it. Nobody would have to stage the bikes if they stopped right there because it was only ~10 feet from the purse.

 

[MNDad]

Do we know the address of the gas station? That would tell us that police were looking at both sides of the park ... meaning, I think, they're not sure what happened so they are excluding possibilities.

Use Bing'a birds eye view. The Casey's is just north of Gilbert on River Forest on the west side of the street.

 

[nikb]

JMHO..I don't think LE would give a witness a description..more likely they would ask the witness to describe what was seen. If they can back up the info they get, they use it or keep it to themselves if they decide that is the best way to use it.

Great point. Can't believe I didn't think of that.

 

[hambirg]

I had thought of something similar, but in my version, they got back to the lake to get the purse, but someone grabbed them before they got to it. Nobody would have to stage the bikes if they stopped right there because it was only ~10 feet from the purse.

That's a thought!

I'm also now curious as to why LE was looking at surveillance tape at Casey's as late as 2pm. I feel like we are missing a big, important piece to this puzzle. Maybe that 2:30pm sighting is accurate. Maybe the girls just lost track of time and were on the go when Grandma went looking for them and that's why she didn't see them. Ever try to find somebody in a grocery store when you are both walking around looking for each other? :waitasec:

 

[CoeTrawk]

I don't think there was enough time. . .if we think TG's sighting is accurate. . .heck even semi-accurate.

This is kind of a theory. . I'm not sure what I think about it. . but I'll throw it out there. What if we have it backwards? What if the girls were at the lake, went through the gate to feed the ducks, skip rocks in the water. . whatever. They leave the lake close to 12, are seen by Mr C, are caught by the cctv AT 12:15ish banghead and then are seen speeding past the house. . .because they forgot the purse! They were watched and followed from the lake and abducted sometime shortly after they were seen on cctv and the bikes were dropped near the purse in the hopes that no one would realize the girls left the lake.

Eh. . that doesn't really work either, does it? :banghead:

I don't mean to suggest that the perp staged the bikes immediately, rather that he grabbed the girls in the woods just before TG came thru (or maybe just after), perhaps stuffed them in a van parked on Maiden Lane, then grabbed the bikes. He had until 3:58 to take the girls to his basement, or pass them off, or what the heck ever, then come back and paddle them to the gate.

Actually, you know what's bothering me? It seems impossible that the bikes sat in one place for several hours without several people noticing. Not necessarily think anything of it, but coming forward after they hear that those two bikes they saw are related to a crime.

I think this because the trail is used more by casual users, like families on outings, kids, fitness walkers, etc., rather than hardcore cyclists and so on. For someone who doesn't plan on going on for miles and miles, they would very likely see the bikes TWICE! From Exchange Park, the trail does not make a full loop of the lake. It circles to the west, then south, then east, but then the trail keeps going away from the lake. To make a loop, one would have to use roads, and go around a little... river? Creek? Canal? To the east of the parking lot (see the maps.) So IMO, any group of kids, families, walkers etc., would most likely go around the lake, then turn around and go back to the parking lot the same way. Even a cyclist on a long looping ride like TG would spot them once. I can't believe that no one other than TG was on that trail in three-plus hours. Those bikes couldn't have just sat on the trailside of the fence unseen for that long... could they?

 

[GrainneDhu]

I have a question. If someone says he watered his lawn between 12pm and 3pm, does he mean that he spent 3 hours watering his lawn, or that the event of watering the lawn (however long it took) happened sometime between the hours of 12pm and 3pm?

Sorry, if this has been clarified already. I just kind of took that statement to mean the latter.

I would tend to think it took about 3 hours to water the front, sides and back lawn of a house. Keeping in mind that built in sprinkler systems are not common in Iowa for residential housing (we don't get enough drought for that).

I believe that Mr C meant that he believes he saw the girls at one point between 12 and 3 pm. Not that he saw them continuously or repeatedly between those times.

 

[superbee]

It is hard to see a little one in need of help and not help.

Years ago we were at Mall of America in the amusement park area. I noticed a little girl (looked to be about 2 or 3), wandering around and there didn't seem to be anyone with her. I got a bad feeling about it..I can't explain what made me think she was alone, I just felt that she was. So I watched and got more worried as I did. I started to follow her from a distance, looking around like crazy for some adult who might belong to her and not seeing any.
Finally, I realized a couple who seemed to be watching her too and the woman noticed me. She said "is she with you?" and I said "no! I was hoping she was with you!" she shook her head and walked away. Just like that...walked away.

So I approched the child and asked her if she was lost. She said, "No I'm not lost, but my daddy is!" (My heart sank)

I asked her if I could help look and we only traveled a short distance before I located a police officer. I explained the situation to him and he asked her for her dad's name. she said "his name is Daddy!" (oy!)

So he assured me he would take her to the lost children desk (I didnt know they had one!).

When I returned to my husband he pointed out that her parent might have freaked out if they saw me wandering around with the little girl looking for them. It hadn't occurred to me..I just wanted to make sure she was ok!

Bless your heart! I wish each of us had one of you watching over us. Always walk in sunshine.

 

[hambirg]

I don't mean to suggest that the perp staged the bikes immediately, rather that he grabbed the girls in the woods just before TG came thru (or maybe just after), perhaps stuffed them in a van parked on Maiden Lane, then grabbed the bikes. He had until 3:58 to take the girls to his basement, or pass them off, or what the heck ever, then come back and paddle them to the gate.

Actually, you know what's bothering me? It seems impossible that the bikes sat in one place for several hours without several people noticing. Not necessarily think anything of it, but coming forward after they hear that those two bikes they saw are related to a crime.

I think this because the trail is used more by casual users, like families on outings, kids, fitness walkers, etc., rather than hardcore cyclists and so on. For someone who doesn't plan on going on for miles and miles, they would very likely see the bikes TWICE! From Exchange Park, the trail does not make a full loop of the lake. It circles to the west, then south, then east, but then the trail keeps going away from the lake. To make a loop, one would have to use roads, and go around a little... river? Creek? Canal? To the east of the parking lot (see the maps.) So IMO, any group of kids, families, walkers etc., would most likely go around the lake, then turn around and go back to the parking lot the same way. Even a cyclist on a long looping ride like TG would spot them once. I can't believe that no one other than TG was on that trail in three-plus hours. Those bikes couldn't have just sat on the trailside of the fence unseen for that long... could they?

This is true. Which makes me wonder if the girls hadn't been abducted yet, when TG saw the bikes. Or like you suggest, they had and the perp moved them.. . and then put them back. I'm not sure how I feel about that. What's their motive to risk being seen twice?

ETA-I'm starting to think the abduction did happen later.

 

[CoeTrawk]

This is true. Which makes me wonder if the girls hadn't been abducted yet, when TG saw the bikes. Or like you suggest, they had and the perp moved them.. . and then put them back. I'm not sure how I feel about that. What's their motive to risk being seen twice?

ETA-I'm starting to think the abduction did happen later.

Well, to me risking being seen twice for a short time each vs one longer time (kidnapping and staging all at once) isn't a big difference.

But a later abduction solves the standing bikes problem in simpler terms. So do you lean to the idea that they were snatched at a later time from the exact site the bikes were found?

I can see them going to the lake twice. Evil dude sets up a meeting for later in the day, to give himself time to set up the trap?

 

[otto]

It is the site of the Casey's where the "white van" was spotted, later identified and ruled out.

So, just East of the park? Does it have anything to do with the WC used by the cyclist?