IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #16

[hambirg]

I don't know how many of you saw it earlier. I proposed a different use for the paddle boat. There has been speculation that it was used to lure these two girls. I believe it was used by the perp to move the two girls to the parking lot, where they were tossed into a vehicle, driven out of town and dumped or buried somewhere. You can get a nice view of those boats from across the lake at the location where the dogs tracked the girls to the shoreline.

This explains why their scents stopped at the water but they weren't found in the water, why a neighbor knew that his boat had been used and how someone got the girls out of that area without being seen.

I'm just not buying it.

Being out on the water would be the most vulnerable spot to be seen. On a small lake like that, any boat on the water is going to be noticed, never mind how easily it could be tracked by someone watching it on shore. IE. . ."look a boat! It's going across the lake. Now it's at the shore. Hey that guy is dragging two girls." You get the picture. . .it's not a car or anything else that could go quickly or quickly change course if it needed to.

MOO

ETA- I don't think there was a paddle boater.

 

[HeinekenMan]

Possible. But do you think the girls were going along for a boat ride and did not know anything was wrong at the time? Or were they already aware they were being kidnapped when they were on the boat? Because I think it is a bulky hard to steer type of boat. If the girls wanted to fight them it would be noticed, imo.

You will not like my answer. I think they were "loaded" and "unloaded". I think you'll know where I'm going with this. Can someone local find out if the boats are still at those homes and whether they are two- or four-seaters?

 

[HeinekenMan]

I'm just not buying it.

Being out on the water would be the most vulnerable spot to be seen. On a small lake like that, any boat on the water is going to be noticed, never mind how easily it could be tracked by someone watching it on shore. IE. . ."look a boat! It's going across the lake. Now it's at the shore. Hey that guy is dragging two girls." You get the picture. . .it's not a car or anything else that could go quickly or quickly change course if it needed to.

MOO

ETA- I don't think there was a paddle boater.

On the water, the person would be seen from a distance. It would be indiscernible that two girls in the boat are not alive. On the trail, anyone happening to pass by would clearly see a guy carrying two bodies. If he wanted to remove two bodies from that lake, the paddle boat seems like an idea that is nearly as good as any other. As for him removing the girls from the paddle boat, that would take no more than 45 seconds.

If you don't think there was a paddle boat, why do you think a neighbor reported that someone used his paddle boat? Or was that information not accurate?

 

[otto]

I don't know how many of you saw it earlier. I proposed a different use for the paddle boat. There has been speculation that it was used to lure these two girls. I believe it was used by the perp to move the two girls to the parking lot, where they were tossed into a vehicle, driven out of town and dumped or buried somewhere. You can get a nice view of those boats from across the lake at the location where the dogs tracked the girls to the shoreline.

This explains why their scents stopped at the water but they weren't found in the water, why a neighbor knew that his boat had been used and how someone got the girls out of that area without being seen.

Into the parking lot? ... that requires .25 miles paddling and then the paddleboat still has to be returned ... was it white or yellow? That requires two perps ... one at the shore and one returning the paddleboat to it's rightful owners. Why wouldn't Elizabeth bring her purse? I can picturie Elizabeth sitting by the shore with her purse in hand, setting it down beside her, watching her cousin do exactly that - get into a paddleboat ... then getting onto a paddle boat. She would follow. I can see the paddleboat taking them to Maiden Lane, but not to the parking lot ... but maybe the fishing boy saw a paddleboat. It seems there's enough confirmation about a paddleboat for police to be looking for the pilot.

 

[HeinekenMan]

Was the paddle boat returned? Has that been confirmed? If so, how did the homeowner know it had been moved?

 

[otto]

I'm just not buying it.

Being out on the water would be the most vulnerable spot to be seen. On a small lake like that, any boat on the water is going to be noticed, never mind how easily it could be tracked by someone watching it on shore. IE. . ."look a boat! It's going across the lake. Now it's at the shore. Hey that guy is dragging two girls." You get the picture. . .it's not a car or anything else that could go quickly or quickly change course if it needed to.

MOO

ETA- I don't think there was a paddle boater.

It would be much easier to take the girls the 100 feet along the shore to Maiden Lane. If the girls went there for a pre-planned event, what was it? Did they think that they were going for a paddleboat ride? The last I heard was that the paddleboater had not come forward and that a family reported that a paddleboat may have been borrowed without permission. Was it the yellow one?

Alternatively, the girls may have had a wild idea to cycle to the park that afternoon and as soon as they came to the double fenced area on the trail, perhaps someone stepped through the double gate, blocking their path.

 

[nikb]

<respectfully SBM> Deer hunting starts 15 September, which is good for hunters finding things in shelterbelts, forests and windbreaks. Pheasant season starts 20 October, good for hunters finding things in open fields.

I've never heard the term "shelterbelts" before. I was just wondering what is that? Is it an underground kind of thing where you might say hide yourself, or hide someone? Is it somewhere girls might 'hide' for fun if they were playing hide-and-go-seek? Or is it more like an emergency ditch you could duck into if a tornado with a bunch of wind was coming? I know around here I've heard for wildfires, worst case scenario get in the deepest ditch you can with something flame-retardent over you... this might be a really bad idea for tornadoes that include rain, we just don't get those much. Something entirely different that I haven't even thought about?

(Sorry if you've already answered this, I'm catching up).

 

[Confusion]

Perhaps both parents and police were slower to act. Didn't Elizabeth's mom contact police at 2 PM and police were at the park at 3 PM, the bikes were found at 3:40 and the official time of "looking" started at 3:58 PM. Perhaps knowing that Lyric was late 4 days earlier gave more urgency to "being late", or perhaps it meant that police waited an hour to get to Meyers Lake and the Evansdale Nature Trail.

HC went to the PD and filed a report which they received at 2:47, they went to the house (possibly to see if they may have been located yet) and were at the lake at right around 3:00. I would guess that they talked to WC for a few minutes to get more background since she was with them, possibly talked to a few potential witnesses and began searching. The bikes were found at somewhere between 3:30 and 3:58, I read both times. It is possible that the FD found them at ~3:30 and the LE spokesman (my mind just when completely blank when I was going to write his name) may have gotten there at 3:58... he wasn't always real clear about what he was saying.

 

[otto]

Was the paddle boat returned? Has that been confirmed? If so, how did the homeowner know it had been moved?

I'm assuming that if a paddleboat had been stolen and found in a different place, police would report a stolen paddleboat. Instead, they had said that one was moved ... I assume that means it wasn't tied up the right way.

 

[nikb]

The previous incident was in Waterloo so it would have been a different LE agency, plus I am not even sure the call actually was made or was about to be made when she showed up.

Great points. Probably a different agency.

 

[hambirg]

On the water, the person would be seen from a distance. It would be indiscernible that two girls in the boat are not alive. On the trail, anyone happening to pass by would clearly see a guy carrying two bodies. If he wanted to remove two bodies from that lake, the paddle boat seems like an idea that is nearly as good as any other. As for him removing the girls from the paddle boat, that would take no more than 45 seconds.

If you don't think there was a paddle boat, why do you think a neighbor reported that someone used his paddle boat? Or was that information not accurate?

Even from a distance the boat is going to be obvious. This is what I mean. . .

And once the boater is on their route across the water. . .there is no escape. If someone saw anything that happened on the path. . .the police could be waiting on the shore by the time the boater got there.

One more thing, there is no murder scene at the lake. If the girls were ever in a paddle boat. . .they were still alive.

 

[otto]

HC went to the PD and filed a report which they received at 2:47, they went to the house (possibly to see if they may have been located yet) and were at the lake at right around 3:00. I would guess that they talked to WC for a few minutes to get more background since she was with them, possibly talked to a few potential witnesses and began searching. The bikes were found at somewhere between 3:30 and 3:58, I read both times. It is possible that the FD found them at ~3:30 and the LE spokesman (my mind just when completely blank when I was going to write his name) may have gotten there at 3:58... he wasn't always real clear about what he was saying.

Abben ... vague ... providing media updates, but not compromising the investigation.

Thanks ... so the report was recorded at 2:47, but Elizabeth's mom may have gone there at 2. That suggests to me that no report was taken 4 days earlier ... still, family felt obligated to disclose that information right away.

 

[nikb]

I don't know how many of you saw it earlier. I proposed a different use for the paddle boat. There has been speculation that it was used to lure these two girls. I believe it was used by the perp to move the two girls to the parking lot, where they were tossed into a vehicle, driven out of town and dumped or buried somewhere. You can get a nice view of those boats from across the lake at the location where the dogs tracked the girls to the shoreline.

This explains why their scents stopped at the water but they weren't found in the water, why a neighbor knew that his boat had been used and how someone got the girls out of that area without being seen.

I saw your post but just couldn't make it work in my head. Paddle-or-pedal-or-whatever boats are tough to move on their own nevermind with an extra what 200+ lbs in them, and no one helping to pedal? Although... seeing how much of that route would've been behind the island... argh. Maybe.

ETA, after seeing the recent pics (thanks Hambirg!) it just doesn't seem probable. Possible yes but it seems so unlikely. It's much more out in the open than I thought, I thought the 'island' would block a possible route more. I agree it answers some of the questions though. Hmm.

 

[Confusion]

Abben ... vague ... providing media updates, but not compromising the investigation.

Thanks ... so the report was recorded at 2:47, but Elizabeth's mom may have gone there at 2. That suggests to me that no report was taken 4 days earlier ... still, family felt obligated to disclose that information right away.

Thanks, I knew it started with an A, but I haven't had more than a couple hours of sleep a night for over a week so I couldn't remember that B follows A! :blushing:

I believe that Heather was driving around looking for them at 2:00 and said she was going to the PD at 2:30, but it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

 

[otto]

Even from a distance the boat is going to be obvious. This is what I mean. . .

And once the boater is on their route across the water. . .there is no escape. If someone saw anything that happened on the path. . .the police could be waiting on the shore by the time the boater got there.

One more thing, there is no murder scene at the lake. If the girls were ever in a paddle boat. . .they were still alive.

<BBM>

Exactly ... there's no murder scene at the lake. If these two 8 and 10 year old girls were randomly snatched off the double fenced trail as they stopped by the unlocked double gate even as late as 1 PM, then their bodies might have been found near their bikes. Emergency people weren't there until 3:40. Whether it was one or two perps, there was a 2-3 hour head start and whomever took them had a place in mind ... I think.

 

[Confusion]

I've never heard the term "shelterbelts" before. I was just wondering what is that?

SBM
Shelterbelts are rows of trees or sometimes shrubs that are used as windbreaks around fields, houses, etc. to help protect them from snow, wind and whatever else mother nature may want to throw at them...

 

[GrainneDhu]

I agree with the cornfield project, besides, that area someone would have been curious and then known what was being built. I also agree with deer and pheasant season starting the girls could be found by a hunter, sorry to say, if they are no longer alive and disposed of in a field.

Do you know what areas were searched for sure? Seems like LE stopped the searches because they know the girls are not in a field. ?? Sorry I know this was discussed a thousand times before, I just cannot remember...

All I know is that LE said that the 12 square miles around Evansdale had been searched, mostly via volunteer searchers.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I really appreciate your descriptions of the area. Have you seen The Lovely Bones? I first heard about th film because it was the phrase Morgan Harrington's mother used when she viewed her daughter's bones in a farmer's field, still wearing jewelry.

I haven't seen the movie but I have read the book.

I've also read Alice Sebold's memoire Lucky. That's what some policeman told her after she was raped; in context, he meant she was lucky the perp hadn't killed her.

 

[nikb]

SBM
Shelterbelts are rows of trees or sometimes shrubs that are used as windbreaks around fields, houses, etc. to help protect them from snow, wind and whatever else mother nature may want to throw at them...

Thanks! Makes sense. I think my Aunt in another state used to attempt to grow those (she still does attempt it but Mother Nature won quite a few years ago). Would it be a good hiding place? For a child or an abductor? It doesn't sound like it but wanted to ask.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Not to mention LE staff and availability. When I first heard about this case and the quick police response I was super surprised. This is nothing against my local LE but around here unless it was on the news or an immediate 911 type emergency (which the report of the girls might've been?), where I am you're more likely to get "here's the website to fill out the report and we'll get back to you" than LE "swarming the lake."

This is a stretch but I would think that after a false report a few days earlier they might be a little slower to respond when they got a second report of the same child being later than expected getting home. I keep thinking there had to be more information that made LE worried or suspicious for them to act so quickly. I'm having a hard time separating likely LE responses from small towns to larger towns/cities/counties in my mind, though.

The first incident was in Waterloo, a different jurisdiction. Apparently the girls came home soon enough that no official report was made (although it probably was in the 911 log).

The Evansdale PD wouldn't have any particular reason to know about the first report. Unless Heather mentioned it when she made her report and I don't see any reason why she would. Not that she'd deliberately hide information but it's not the first thing I'd think of under the circumstances. And for that matter, she may not have known about it at the time.

I don't live in town but the nearest towns are both smaller than Evansdale. My husband and I have had to call 911 a few times in the last 7 years (several health emergencies, one fire across the road). We've gotten really fast responses, less than 10 minutes even though we live way out in the country and you have to take a gravel road to get to the gravel road we live on.

I would expect an equally fast response to two missing children.

Out here in the country, I think everyone understands that life is tough and we all need help sometimes.