IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #16

[nikb]

Gosh. I didn't mean to scare anyone. I hate scary things. I won't even watch the Wizard of Oz because of the wicked witch (and the flying monkeys are a kind of creepy, too).

Please don't apologize! I think we have to think of all possibilities, and for some reason your idea about the girls helping some poor innocent person that hurt him- or her- self didn't really come to mind or at least didn't register before. I mentioned it several threads ago but even as a young adult I'm certain I was nearly grabbed by someone who was asking for directions and help reading a map. The map was way farther inside the car than it needed to be from the window and I was even a little hesitant. When the guy grabbed my arm I yanked it away and some unrelated people pulled into the parking lot so the guy took off. Even at the time my heart was pounding but I thought I was being over-cautious. (Oddly for my directionally challenged self something similar happened when I was a kid).

If someone was hurt and needed help? I'd have helped without giving it a second thought, even as a young girl.

 

[Jan]

In thinking of what might have happened to the missing cousins, I was reminded of what happend to a friend and me when we were about 10 years old. We walked about a dozen blocks from home together to a big, public park in the city. It was winter with cold and snow. A man in the park exposed himself to us and tried to get us to come over to him. We started running the other way, as no one else was in the park and its a big park. The man was gaining on us and we were scared. There was a creek in the park with a thin layer of ice on it. We ran across it and our feet sunk through the ice but we were going so fast that we made it across. The man was far too heavy for the ice to hold him and he had to go around the creek, which gave us time to run out of the park. We ran across a busy road and onto the porch of a friend's house to ask for help, but no one was home! So, we just stood on the porch of the house. When we were pretty sure the man was gone, we ran home as fast as we could! I was afraid to tell my parents for fear they wouldn't let me go to the park anymore. But my friend told my parents. My parents never called the police or anything, which they probably should have done. I was wondering if anything like that could have happened to the cousins and the person or persons caught them and put them into a car.

 

[TeenyTaurus]

As this case involves two girls missing, leaving some "quick opportunistic grab" scenario less likely than someone the girls knew and lured, I have wondered just what lures might be used. While Elizabeth has been portrayed as a very friendly, even 'chatty' little girl, Lyric may be the more cautious type by comparison. What types of scenarios might entice both girls? I do think that "help the injured person" one would work. Anyone have any more possibilities? And, say, much closer to home?

 

[MNDad]

Normally sociopaths that would harm a child has no empathy, so I really dought they care. He is probally a narcissistic person and only cares about his needs. This type of person doesn't feel others pain, it's all about them.

I know you are probably right, but I am hoping that they haven't always been this way and maybe they can reflect back at a time in their life where they felt pain and empathize with these parents. May be wishful thinking, but aren't we all just wishing at this point.

 

[LaylaD]

If it is too late, this wordly person will realize that losing a child is the worst pain ever and no amount of time, even after, let's say arbitrarily 8 years, that pain is still there. But the pain of not knowing what happened is a far greater pain. Perhaps they have a daughter of their own, or two, and when they look at them, the shame will guide them to do the right thing.

Well stated. I would go further to add that the same pain exists with losing a pair of grandchildren, say w/in that same 8 year timeframe. Or, the pain of losing a couple of brother-in-laws.

 

[Sunlight]

I know you are probably right, but I am hoping that they haven't always been this way and maybe they can reflect back at a time in their life where they felt pain and empathize with these parents. May be wishful thinking, but aren't we all just wishing at this point.

I actually think you may have hit on something there...perhaps the perp can relate on some level.

 

[ColetteS]

Looking for hope. School is starting almost everywhere. Will someone notice Lyric and Elizabeth if/when they don't start school wherever they are? Will someone notice them if they show up as the new kids somewhere?

I live in a small town in Iowa, too, and every day that passes makes me sadder, and more worried, for Lyric and Elizabeth.

We don't lock our doors; I hear about some people who can't be bothered to lock their cars or carry their car keys and just leave them in the ignition. My 13 year old daughter and her friends ride their bikes everywhere, play in the creeks and the parks, climb trees, stroll and shop on Main street, sled down hills in the winter. I've urged them to be more careful but this is also the childhood my husband and I had and the childhood I want for my daughter and her friends. And for Lyric and Elizabeth.

Could the start of school bring them back? I don't want it to be harvest or hunting season.

 

[nursebeeme]

I keep thinking back to Sommer Thompson and I think the girls were lured in the same similar fashion: re: come see the cute puppy, come see my fishing pole, etc..

It does not take much to lure children.

As for the perp feeling what the parents are currently going thru that is a far stretch imhoo: we can hope but unless he or she is caught they basically got away with this. I don't see them doing this.

Imhoo (this is just my opinion here) but the only way this person or persons will be caught is if they are somehow "caught".. literally..

I truly hope that LE has a lot more than what we are hearing in the news reports.

And I also want to add that I come from a similar sleepy town in Ohio where my classmate was abducted and murdered in the 80s. She was lured as well. He was serial killer Robert Buell and was not caught until he was caught in relation to another crime.

The fact that these two girls are still missing keeps me up at nights sometimes. I have this gut feeling that they were lured away. And not necessarily by someone they knew. And that makes me sick.

Just throwing out my two cents into the conversation.

 

[Jules71]

MNDad and LaylaD - what is the significance of an 8 year time frame? Can you give me a hint? Someone lost someone 8 years ago? Or were you just speaking in general?

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[hambirg]

Many of the cases here on WS I have followed, the perp disposed of the body in a trash bin, dump site, or canal. They didn't hide the bodies too well and they were found quickly. Just don't know. I find it hard to believe it was only one person. Also, is there access by a vehicle to the trail area where the bikes were found? tia

Sorry, I'm still catching up. . our monitor died today.

But them being found quickly in a dumpster, landfill or canal isn't what happened here. I'm not arguing that that doesn't happen. . .I'm just saying that when it doesn't. . it's likely that the perp took them some where secluded to spend time with them. . .because that happens too, unfortunately.

Just as an aside. . .it also makes me think that the perp has more to hide. . .is more fearful of blowing their cover and being caught.

MOO

 

[Pensfan]

It could be.

How do you think she managed to keep the reason for her visit from her 11 year old cousin KB?

I don't think she hid it. I believe Lyric and her cousin were talking to men online and they both hid their online activities......at least for a while.

Many of these social sites allow you to see the zip code of the participants. The 24-year-old perv arrested in Waterloo for having sex with a 12-year-old he met on the internet was active on meetme.com. This site allows people of any age to participate and it shows their zip code. Very dangerous.

 

[JaimeInLA]

Nurse - I grew up in a town in Ohio where a girl in my class was kidnapped and murdered too! But I guess it can't be the same town/girl since mine is unsolved to this day (Amy Mihaljevic).

 

[hambirg]

It's interesting that some criminals do insert themselves into an investigation. I don't know but I imagine they think of themselves as sly. MNDad, your ideas are interesting. I believe they were mentioned in earlier threads. I know that some people believe that there had to be at least two perps involved but I don't think there had to be. I think one person could have done it. A menacing man, for example, would have been very frightening to me as a child. I don't believe having a friend along would have caused me to feel less terrified at the age of 9 or 10, either. It's possible that whoever abducted the girls used a gun (as was mentioned earlier in the thread) but I don't think that would be necessary. I think telling two scared little girls that you have a gun in your pocket would be enough to have them do as they're told. That being said, I can think of a scenerio in which a perp would not need a gun or to say that he had one in order to abduct two girls. I'll use THE white van, since it's so...popular. Let's say that a perp is walking around the block or to his mailbox. We can also have him jogging, or riding a bike or a skateboard for that matter. He sees the girls. He pretends to fall at a time and place he knows the girls cannot help but notice. They stop to help him or maybe he asks them to help him up. They drop their bikes to assist the "nice" man to his feet. When the "nice" man stands up, he can't walk -- he must have broken/sprained his ankle. If the girls will just help him get to his van that's parked right there at the edge of the woods, he will drive himself to the hospital. Maybe he needs one or both to hold his hand so he doesn't fall. Maybe he needs someone to carry his skateboard/push his bike back to his van. Of course, they're going to help this nice man. They can't leave him hurt and alone. It wouldn't be the right thing to do. It wouldn't be "kind." He's so appreciative of the help they are giving him. If they'll just open the sliding door/back door on the van, he thinks he can get in easier (or he needs them to put his skateboard/bike in the van for him). The girls open the door. Maybe they get inside to help pull him up. Maybe he pushes them inside. Regardless, he gets the girls inside. It's quiet. It's quick. It works. They're gone.

This gave me the heebie jeebies, because it reminds me so much of "poor Ted" up at Lake Sammamish, that just needed some help getting his boat on his car. :shudder:

Btw. . one of my Mom's co-workers was approached by him coming out of the library one night. He had his arm in a sling and dropped his books. . .could she please help him carry his books to his car. Once they started walking towards the parking lot she got a bad feeling and made some excuse as to why she couldn't go to his car. That was the night Susan Rancourt disappeared.

 

[MotherOcean]

Okey-dokey, I think it is quite likely that the girls traveled the route on this map:

http://goo.gl/maps/XmXNe


I think they traveled to the west end of Brovan where they then headed north on River Road. They could have taken a right onto Lafayette at the corner or they could have cut through the parking lots of the businesses there on the south side of Lafayette. I think it's most likely that they cut through the parking lots from somewhere right around the corner of River Road/Lafayette and traveled to S. Evans right near the west side of First Security State Bank where they then headed south. I think one reason that they may have then turned south on S. Evans right there rather than going further down on Lafayette is because the parking lots from the bank on towards the east are broken up with patches of grass, so they may have been harder to ride the bikes on. Before that point, it looks like they would have been able to stay in parking lots and wouldn't have had to get right on the road. I think they were headed towards Evansdale Nature Trail and so, once on S. Evans, they went one block to Morrell Ave. where they began to travel east until they hit the trail. If Mr. C's statement about seeing them is accurate, and if it was Lake Ave. that he was referring to when he said that he saw them ride past his house, then that would mean that they took a right at the skateboard park that is at the corner of Gilbert and the nature trail. I believe they did that, rode to Lake Ave. where they turned and began to travel south until they got to S. Evans. (However, it is possible that they continued on Gilbert past the front of Mr. C's house and then turned south on S. Evans.) At that point, they may have turned (or run into, if they were on S. Evans already due to turning there from Gilbert, rather than on Lake Ave.) onto Arbutus and gone to just right there where the grassy area is located. I believe it was Ollipop who said that they could have cut through that patch of grass in less than 30 seconds and been on the trail again. I think they headed west on the trail past the wooded area there and into the area that is fenced on both sides where they stopped for some reason. This map would give them a travel time of around ten minutes from the CCTV to the gate at the jetty.

This is just one of many maps that I've made as I've tried to determine what route I think they took to the lake. There are, of course, many possible routes. When I first heard of Lyric & Elizabeth's case, I found Hollye's map, and I assumed that they took the nature trail but then I began to read here and saw that there are many ways that they could have gone. But, now I've gone back to my original thoughts and this is the way that I think they most likely traveled.

I think that even if the girls were taped at 12:11, and not at 12:19, that they still would not have been at the gate area of the trail in time for Mr. TG to see them. If the clock was actually a little fast and they were there at the camera a few minutes before 12:11 they may have possibly made it there in time for an "around 12:20" sighting but I personally do not think that is feasible. It's just too close for me to comprehend.

:moo:

MOO, of course.

 

[Jules71]

I don't think she hid it. I believe Lyric and her cousin were talking to men online and they both hid their online activities......at least for a while.

Many of these social sites allow you to see the zip code of the participants. The 24-year-old perv arrested in Waterloo for having sex with a 12-year-old he met on the internet was active on meetme.com. This site allows people of any age to participate and it shows their zip code. Very dangerous.

Maybe we need to look at this creeper more. Older guy into much younger girl. Did the article say how he came to be discovered? Did the 12 year old rat him out? Or did the FBI find him after digging into what may have happened to the girls? Wait a minute... Lyric was missing with her 12 yr old cousin in Waterloo.... nah there are lots of 12 yr old in Waterloo. Point is Lyric could very well have been talking online with someone. She did have zoosk on her fb wall.

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[Confusion]

I think one thing we can all agree on is that whoever took them is either extremely well organized and detail oriented or one of the luckiest people alive. Things have just fallen into place too neatly with almost no evidence or witnesses.

I've come to the conclusion that the person/people is/are either trusted by at least one of the girls (and probably both) so they could get them to leave there willingly without making any kind of a scene or they live on the lake and put the bikes there in case someone had seen them at/near the lake. I can't really see any reason to stage the bikes in such an odd place with the possibility of any number of people passing by and seeing them before they were done if they were taken somewhere else. If taken close to home, especially considering the direction they were last seen riding, it seems like the river would have been a better place.

I definitely believe it was well-planned, and it seems like the only evidence that has been found may have been left there purposely to be found. The few things that are known just tend to make everything seem more confusing. Assuming that all known 'players' are what they appear to be, I could see someone giving them directions to follow that would take them past Mr. C , who sounds like he waters his lawn pretty regularly, and then to the area where the bikes were found. If TG is fairly regular about his riding (same days, approximately the same time), they could have either made sure the girls were there before he came by, or planted other bikes there for him to see and replaced them with the girls' bikes when they got there. The CCTV tape may be the one thing that wasn't expected, and did put a bit of a kink in an otherwise perfect setup.

I have no idea who it would be or why it was done, so I'd have to guess it was for the one reason we'd all prefer it not be. The type of person I could see it being would be an accountant, an architect, a computer programmer or graphics designer, sports coach, librarian, or others who have to pay attention to details in their work, or someone who suffers from extreme OCD and feels the need to be meticulous about everything in their lives - meals at a certain time, bed at the same time, car washed and maintained on a regular schedule, walk the dog at the same time every day, etc.

This is already getting too long. If people think I might be on the right track, or at least close to it, I can continue later.

 

[Sunlight]

Okey-dokey, I think it is quite likely that the girls traveled the route on this map:

http://goo.gl/maps/XmXNe


I think they traveled to the west end of Brovan where they then headed north on River Road. They could have taken a right onto Lafayette at the corner or they could have cut through the parking lots of the businesses there on the south side of Lafayette. I think it's most likely that they cut through the parking lots from somewhere right around the corner of River Road/Lafayette and traveled to S. Evans right near the west side of First Security State Bank where they then headed south. I think one reason that they may have then turned south on S. Evans right there rather than going further down on Lafayette is because the parking lots from the bank on towards the east are broken up with patches of grass, so they may have been harder to ride the bikes on. Before that point, it looks like they would have been able to stay in parking lots and wouldn't have had to get right on the road. I think they were headed towards Evansdale Nature Trail and so, once on S. Evans, they went one block to Morrell Ave. where they began to travel east until they hit the trail. If Mr. C's statement about seeing them is accurate, and if it was Lake Ave. that he was referring to when he said that he saw them ride past his house, then that would mean that they took a right at the skateboard park that is at the corner of Gilbert and the nature trail. I believe they did that, rode to Lake Ave. where they turned and began to travel south until they got to S. Evans. (However, it is possible that they continued on Gilbert past the front of Mr. C's house and then turned south on S. Evans.) At that point, they may have turned (or run into, if they were on S. Evans already due to turning there from Gilbert, rather than on Lake Ave.) onto Arbutus and gone to just right there where the grassy area is located. I believe it was Ollipop who said that they could have cut through that patch of grass in less than 30 seconds and been on the trail again. I think they headed west on the trail past the wooded area there and into the area that is fenced on both sides where they stopped for some reason. This map would give them a travel time of around ten minutes from the CCTV to the gate at the jetty.

This is just one of many maps that I've made as I've tried to determine what route I think they took to the lake. There are, of course, many possible routes. When I first heard of Lyric & Elizabeth's case, I found Hollye's map, and I assumed that they took the nature trail but then I began to read here and saw that there are many ways that they could have gone. But, now I've gone back to my original thoughts and this is the way that I think they most likely traveled.

I think that even if the girls were taped at 12:11, and not at 12:19, that they still would not have been at the gate area of the trail in time for Mr. TG to see them. If the clock was actually a little fast and they were there at the camera a few minutes before 12:11 they may have possibly made it there in time for an "around 12:20" sighting but I personally do not think that is feasible. It's just too close for me to comprehend.

:moo:

MOO, of course.

Yup. That is what I was thinking. Well done.

 

[hambirg]

This is good. I can see it. They could have turned too soon on Evans before getting to the bike trail. It would have put them in front of Fareway so they decided to ask for directions. The thing is this cannot be true if TG's sighting is right. In fact we have to take his sighting out to make anything work - which is what I am going to do. So I think this route is very likely. They should be able to get video from Fareway which they may have. Could someone inside the store have overheard them asking for directions? So that person headed down near Maiden Lane and waited for them?

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See, this is why I don't think the girls got far after being caught on cctv. LE would have long since asked for any surveillance tape in the area. If LE says the last time the girls were seen is on tape on Brovan, then that is the last time they were caught on tape. Doesn't the bank and grocery store have surveillance cameras? Don't any of the other businesses on Lafayette have them? Is there any way to get from Brovan to the Evansdale Trail without going by some cameras?

It's just a hunch. .. but I believe there is something else on that tape. In fact my first reaction when I saw it was that the girls had possibly already been approached and were trying to get away. Mind you, not in a way that they really understood the danger, but in a "OMG, what a creepy guy . . .hahaha. " kinda way.

 

[nikb]

In thinking of what might have happened to the missing cousins, I was reminded of what happend to a friend and me when we were about 10 years old. <snipped for space>

Wow thank you for sharing that. I'm so glad you ran, and got away!

 

[Jules71]

Just thinking.... why did LE stop at Mr. C's house to ask if they knew anything but not stop at Ollipop's house which is even closer to the lake? Is there a cctv at the PD/Fire Station on Gilbert & Evans? Maybe there were seen on video there.

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