IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #18

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nikb said:
Yes it looked close to me, too. And I didn't think much of it until I read the article closer. I seriously think it's a stretch that it's related, but not as much as when I originally saw the article. Even just the way they advertise it is SO scary I don't think I'd even consider going, but obvisously it's a popular attraction so that's just me. That does mean there would be volunteers, possibly regulars or possibly not, maybe in from slightly out of town, of course unpredictable hours and half of them may not even know each other's names or faces if they're only there a few hours a day and not at the same time. They wouldn't have a "shift" most likely (or if they did and didn't show back up what're you going to do, fire them?). It might not even be noticed for days that they hadn't showed back up to voluntter. It's an interesting thought! All IMO.

I should add that I have helped set up a few haunted houses, once at our house and several at friends' houses, so I'm not trying to say or imply that everyone who does is creepy. :) Most aren't, I'm sure. It was a lot of fun and a lot of creativity but I could never get into some of the more macabre stuff and it freaked me out the things people thought of. I know it's all from horror movies and stuff (which I also avoid), but it's still creepy what people can think up.
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I volunteered at a haunted house for two years. It was at an orchard in the barn. Very creepy. But the people who volunteered, honestly, were pretty normal business people ... we were members of the local jaycees and the haunted house was one of our best fundraisers!

I like that people are considering all of these non-local people who might have been in the area that weekend. People at reunions, seminars or volunteering at a haunted house would likely include people who knew or are acquainted with the area, but no longer live there.
 
Sailorsgirl said:
I volunteered at a haunted house for two years. It was at an orchard in the barn. Very creepy. But the people who volunteered, honestly, were pretty normal business people ... we were members of the local jaycees and the haunted house was one of our best fundraisers!

I like that people are considering all of these non-local people who might have been in the area that weekend. People at reunions, seminars or volunteering at a haunted house would likely include people who knew or are acquainted with the area, but no longer live there.
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Thanks Sailorsgirl. That's what I was trying to get across and didn't do a very good job of it. I bet 99.99% of the people are great and normal - as normal as people get anyway ;). It's a huge stretch but if it happened to be related to the decorating of the haunted house, I could possibly envision the one sicko setting up a scene and thinking "hmmm what if I did this for real?" I strongly doubt it but the thought crossed my mind. I tend to think if it's haunted house related it's more along the lines of non-locals or former-locals as you said, though.
 
Seeing the pictures that some locals have taken and shared with us here have pretty much convinced me that the bikes were not staged because it is quite a walk from where the bikes were found to the end of the double fenced area. I also don't think the bikes were dropped down over the fence because the fence is too high. We've heard both 6 feet high and 8 feet high. All of the earlier reports that I read consistently said 8 feet high. That just seems too high to drop the bikes over. The walk from the bikes to the end of the fence is too long. I think if someone was going to ditch the bikes they would have dropped them off closer to the end of the double fence.

I think the girls were abducted near or right where the bikes were found. I think the abduction had some level of planning, atleast to the extent that a trap was set and, unfortunately, the girls were snared. I believe there was more than one perp. I think they were approached from both sides/ends by a perp. One was coming towards them and one was behind them. I think the perps. were hiding and waiting for them to ride by. One could have been in the edge of the wooded area where the double fencing ends and one could have been in the area where the gate opened to. I think the perp. who was hiding in the area inside the gate by the lake grabbed Elizabeth's purse and tossed it to where it was found. I think atleast one of the perps. knows the girls, not necessarily well, and that the girls may have known him, not necessarily well, but with some familiarity.

I think they were carried or lead to a vehicle that was parked on Maiden Lane, or the grassy area OR to a vehicle that drove up on Arbutus right on time for a quick get-away.

I think the perps. are youngish - 20's or early 30's. I think they live in the local area and the motive was sexual or revenge related. I think there is a good chance that the girls are still alive and being held for either of those purposes.

I think that IF this is what happened that the perps. will be caught.

I know that anything could have happened and this may be far from reality, but it's what makes the most sense to me right now.
 
PS sorry for all my rapid-fire posts. When I get behind I've been saving my posts in Notepad as I go, then posting only the ones that still seem relevant once I catch up.
 
nikb said:
Thanks Sailorsgirl. That's what I was trying to get across and didn't do a very good job of it. I bet 99.99% of the people are great and normal - as normal as people get anyway ;). It's a huge stretch but if it happened to be related to the decorating of the haunted house, I could possibly envision the one sicko setting up a scene and thinking "hmmm what if I did this for real?" I strongly doubt it but the thought crossed my mind. I tend to think if it's haunted house related it's more along the lines of non-locals or former-locals as you said, though.
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The truth about any group of people is that there is always a chance that someone is not a good individual even if the entire group as a whole is doing good things. It's a sad fact, but just think about serial killers or serial molesters ... their neighbors and co-workers are almost always shocked at their secret life. It just makes the world that much scarier.
 
I just had a thought that could help narrow down the suspect pool drastically, especially if it's someone fairly local. I believe the person is someone who does not abuse alcohol or drugs. That's based mainly on the fact that people who are drunk or high tend to talk about things they shouldn't and it doesn't appear to have happened yet. I also think it would probably take someone with a fairly clear head to do this without leaving behind evidence or witnesses. Again, MOO.
 
MotherOcean said:
Seeing the pictures that some locals have taken and shared with us here have pretty much convinced me that the bikes were not staged because it is quite a walk from where the bikes were found to the end of the double gated area. I also don't think the bikes were dropped down over the fence because the fence is too high. We've heard both 6 feet high and 8 feet high. All of the earlier reports that I read consistently said 8 feet high. That just seems too high to drop the bikes over. The walk from the bikes to the end of the fence is too long. I think if someone was going to ditch the bikes they would have dropped them off closer to the end of the double fence.

I think the girls were abducted near or right where the bikes were found. I think the abduction had some level of planning, atleast to the extent that a trap was set and, unfortunately, the girls were snared. I believe there was more than one perp. I think they were approached from both sides/ends by a perp. One was coming towards them and one was behind them. I think the perps. were hiding and waiting for them to ride by. One could have been in the edge of the wooded area where the double fencing ends and one could have been in the area where the gate opened to. I think the perp. who was hiding in the area inside the gate by the lake grabbed Elizabeth's purse and tossed it to where it was found. I think atleast one of the perps. knows the girls, not necessarily well, and that the girls may have known him, not necessarily well, but with some familiarity.

I think they were carried or lead to a vehicle that was parked on Maiden Lane, or the grassy area OR to a vehicle that drove up on Arbutus right on time for a quick get-away.

I think the perps. are youngish - 20's or early 30's. I think they live in the local area and the motive was sexual or revenge related. I think there is a good chance that the girls are still alive and being held for either of those purposes.

I think that IF this is what happened that the perps. will be caught.

I know that anything could have happened and this may be far from reality, but it's what makes the most sense to me right now.
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I think this whole time, we have been in agreement about the circumstances under which the bikes were found ... the staging has always seemed too difficult or risky imo. I still think the girls either knew their abductor (or their abductor knew them by sight or name) or a woman was involved so the girls would feel safe leaving with her.

We are reading more and more about these young girls who are abducted and held for months or years as, basically, sex slaves. It's possible Lyric and Elizabeth were taken and are still alive.
 
MotherOcean said:
Seeing the pictures that some locals have taken and shared with us here have pretty much convinced me that the bikes were not staged because it is quite a walk from where the bikes were found to the end of the double gated area. I also don't think the bikes were dropped down over the fence because the fence is too high. We've heard both 6 feet high and 8 feet high. All of the earlier reports that I read consistently said 8 feet high. That just seems too high to drop the bikes over. The walk from the bikes to the end of the fence is too long. I think if someone was going to ditch the bikes they would have dropped them off closer to the end of the double fence.

I think the girls were abducted near or right where the bikes were found. I think the abduction had some level of planning, atleast to the extent that a trap was set and, unfortunately, the girls were snared. I believe there was more than one perp. I think they were approached from both sides/ends by a perp. One was coming towards them and one was behind them. I think the perps. were hiding and waiting for them to ride by. One could have been in the edge of the wooded area where the double fencing ends and one could have been in the area where the gate opened to. I think the perp. who was hiding in the area inside the gate by the lake grabbed Elizabeth's purse and tossed it to where it was found. I think atleast one of the perps. knows the girls, not necessarily well, and that the girls may have known him, not necessarily well, but with some familiarity.

I think they were carried or lead to a vehicle that was parked on Maiden Lane, or the grassy area OR to a vehicle that drove up on Arbutus right on time for a quick get-away.

I think the perps. are youngish - 20's or early 30's. I think they live in the local area and the motive was sexual or revenge related. I think there is a good chance that the girls are still alive and being held for either of those purposes.

I think that IF this is what happened that the perps. will be caught.

I know that anything could have happened and this may be far from reality, but it's what makes the most sense to me right now.
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There is a hole in that fence where a car went through and it was never repaired.
 
I want to say one more thing related to a motive...

when I was abducted, the perps. didn't even seem to have a motive! I don't think that is what has happened w/ the girls because they have been gone too long. But, the men who took me didn't do anything to me. They didn't hurt me and there seemed to be no sexual motive or anything. They seemed to think it was one big joke, that it was just a fun thing to do... to snatch a little girl off the street (I was at my bus stop waiting for the school bus in a good sized neighborhood, right in front of many houses, on a major corner, and no one saw it happen) and just have her around for awhile. They released me the same day. Clearly, not the case with Elizabeth and Lyric, but just sharing to say that the motive may not be as clear as we would think it to be.
 
MotherOcean said:
I want to say one more thing related to a motive...

when I was abducted, the perps. didn't even seem to have a motive! I don't think that is what has happened w/ the girls because they have been gone too long. But, the men who took me didn't do anything to me. They didn't hurt me and there seemed to be no sexual motive or anything. They seemed to think it was one big joke, that it was just a fun thing to do... to snatch a little girl off the street (I was at my bus stop waiting for the school bus in a good sized neighborhood, right in front of many houses, on a major corner, and no one saw it happen) and just have her around for awhile. They released me the same day. Clearly, not the case with Elizabeth and Lyric, but just sharing to say that the motive may not be as clear as we would think it to be.
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What you and your family had to go through is unimaginable for most of us. That they didn't do anything to harm you and released you that same day is a blessing! Where your abductors caught and prosecuted? Had they done anything like that in the past?

PS .... the fact that you were kidnapped in broad daylight on a busy street just goes to show that sometimes people don't notice what's going on even when they see it right in front of them.
 
I think the kids were lured to the secluded section of the lake under false pretenses. I think it has everything to do with Lyric's dad and the drug world of meth. I do believe that the kids or at least one of the kids knew the perp or perps. I think the underground was sending Lyric's dad a message.
 
hambirg said:
Just an fyi. . .LE does not generally name witnesses. . . they out themselves. :what:
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Thanks...that's reassuring!

I'm sure my brother will not be going to the media...he is really having a hard time dealing with the horrors of what he witnessed.

And in the case of the missing girls, it does appear that the "witnesses" we know about are the ones that WENT to the media.
 
nikb said:
Personally I don't think you're on that list. :) I think you've shared great ideas and you're also open to other ideas, even when you have your "100%" theory. I haven't really settled on a theory (other than desparately wanting to believe my 'fantasy world' unrealistic one), but I have a feeling that absolutely none of us will be 100% right. We might get close, but 100% right with such limited information seems doubtful. On the throwing out theories or ideas, I agree, not just here but in business even, sometimes throwing out the "might be crazy" out of the box idea and letting people poke holes in it helps lead to the better idea that no one thought of before. "This won't work because of ____ BUT what about ___"? kinda thing.
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My business is a creative business where brainstorming is a way of life. It is hard for everyone to grasp the concept, but I force my staff to follow the rules. During the first round, no one is allowed to say anything is a bad idea or anything is a good idea. No nay sayers and no cheerleaders - everything goes on the board no matter how stupid it might be. I force this practice because it eliminates inhabition with sharing. The idea is that no one second guesses their own idea without sharing it. When we take second and third passes on all the ideas on the wall, that is when we apply logic and reality. This is when the ideas begin to merge together and morph into executable plans. I don't know if that would work here or not, so I am just sharing how we do it in business and it works pretty well.
 
SapphireSteel said:
There is a hole in that fence where a car went through and it was never repaired.
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I wonder if LE found track marks there.

I also wonder how high the bank is at that spot as you come off of the interstate. It looks really high further down to the east but hard to tell about that particular spot. From the few pix I've seen it appears to be much flatter than further east.

I could see someone coming through that spot if the bank is level, but I can't figure out how they could drive east, grab the girls, and keep on going... I guess they could have cut across the grassy area and got on Arbutus. Is that what you think?

Locals have said that the traffic there was very slow due to a construction project.
 
I think that the perp(s) abducted the girls where the bikes were found and led them out through Maiden Lane. I think it was most likely one perp who acted much like Joseph Duncan did in the Sammie Jo White and Carmen Cubias abduction. (These two girls remains were found almost 300 miles from the abduction site.)
I'm about equal on whether the girls were targeted and this was planned well or it was more random and two girls was just a bonus. I think the the perp just appeared in the pathway with a gun and the girls had no alternative but to stop in their tracks and go with him or her. I lean a little more towards random and one male perp but won't rule out the possibility of another Melissa Huckaby type.

This is all just my opinion and as always I hope I am wrong and they will be home soon and are well. Praying for the safe return of both Lizzie and Lyric. :please:
 
MNDad said:
My business is a creative business where brainstorming is a way of life. It is hard for everyone to grasp the concept, but I force my staff to follow the rules. During the first round, no one is allowed to say anything is a bad idea or anything is a good idea. No nay sayers and no cheerleaders - everything goes on the board no matter how stupid it might be. I force this practice because it eliminates inhabition with sharing. The idea is that no one second guesses their own idea without sharing it. When we take second and third passes on all the ideas on the wall, that is when we apply logic and reality. This is when the ideas begin to merge together and morph into executable plans. I don't know if that would work here or not, so I am just sharing how we do it in business and it works pretty well.
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I don't know if that would work here ... mostly because we can never have an executable plan. I love reading everyone's theories or experiences. I've said this before ... any insight into this case can be useful even if it seems completely off the wall. The problem we all have is that we think like logical, rational people ... unfortunately, the person/people who took those girls isn't/aren't logical or rational. We can't possibly step into their shoes because this isn't something any of us would do. I welcome everything other posters have to say even if I don't agree with them ... I think it's safe to say, we just need to respect each other and if we disagree we should do so without bashing a person's theory or making them feel like an idiot. No one here is an idiot ... we are all here for the same reason. We want Lyric and Elizabeth brought home.
 
Sailorsgirl said:
What you and your family had to go through is unimaginable for most of us. That they didn't do anything to harm you and released you that same day is a blessing! Where your abductors caught and prosecuted? Had they done anything like that in the past?

PS .... the fact that you were kidnapped in broad daylight on a busy street just goes to show that sometimes people don't notice what's going on even when they see it right in front of them.
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My parents didn't even know I was gone! They thought I had gotten on the bus. The school didn't notify them that I was absent. The men released me in my neighborhood near the time when the bus would have been dropping me off. I ran to a friend's house who lived near there and one of her parents took me to the school. The school called my parents and the FBI. To my knowledge, the men were never caught. I think no one saw it happen because most of the adults in the neighborhood had already left for work that morning. There were usually other children at the bus stop but I was alone that day.
 
MotherOcean said:
I wonder if LE found track marks there.

I also wonder how high the bank is at that spot as you come off of the interstate. It looks really high further down to the east but hard to tell about that particular spot. From the few pix I've seen it appears to be much flatter than further east.

I could see someone coming through that spot if the bank is level, but I can't figure out how they could drive east, grab the girls, and keep on going... I guess they could have cut across the grassy area and got on Arbutus. Is that what you think?

Locals have said that the traffic there was very slow due to a construction project.
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I think what Granma, Misty and Dan said is most likely.

ETA my post #154
 
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