IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #20

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SapphireSteel said:
Whoever took the girls was not only familiar with the area but also planned the abduction to the last detail.

The helicopter/recanvass suggests a local, as does the crime itself.

Jessica's murder implies a local too...local to Colorado though.

Jessica was murdered and displayed (IMO), whereas the girls have just vanished.

Two completely different crimes in my opinion only, and unlikely to be connected.

If we had found Lizzie and Lyric in a similar condition, I would take the opposite view.

:cow:
Click to expand...

I don't think they are connected either. Are you referring to the article I posted? If so, I posted it because the information was interesting re: "awareness space"
 
Marilynilpa said:
From the link above:

“We continue to dig for more information,” Black Hawk County Sheriff Tony Thompson said. “We continue to search for details that might have been overlooked.”


I'm glad to see that this investigation is still ongoing. Let's hope something, anything, turns up that will help find Lyric and Elizabeth.
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So glad to see new energy here...really hoping something 'cracks'...
 
Gracelin said:
Abben explained there are some people who live in the area who were not home during the initial door-to-door search

http://www.kwwl.com/story/19849548/missing-girls-investigators-recanvassing-evansdale-neighborhoods

This statement sounds so lame! 3 months later..I wonder if they have a new investigator on the case. It certainly would have sounded better than a 3 month double check..
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No kidding about the lame part- geez you'd think they might have been a bit quicker than 3 months later for people who "weren't home"- I don't expect LE to show their all their cards, but if they don't keep the girls in the public eye, :(
LE didn't come out publicly with the new search info until after they were called by the media, after people in E'dale called KWWL and asked if they knew anything, so I don't expect we'll be hearing much else anytime soon from LE, although I'm always hopeful.

I hate to sound snarky (but I'm going to), but I'm surprised Abben didn't say something like- search? I don't know anything about that. It just seems like there's so much more they could be doing, even if it was just a short press release saying the case isn't cold, hunters please call if you find anything, all tips are needed, ect...very frustrating.
 
:please:
Snufamonbobball said:
Perhaps the swabs are being taken to see if there's any link in the Jessica Ridgeway case as well.

I can't imagine they aren't investigating that possibility, both on Friday, both near parks, same age groups, white vans reported, near major roadways leading out of town,during daytime hours with many people around- there are major differences, two taken vs one taken, body located quickly vs unrecovered, but the similarities I think would be worth checking out. No one really knows if the girls were at the lake or if their bikes were staged like Jessica's backpack.:waitasec:

Just thinkin' of possibilities. With the sudden recanvassing of the area, use of a helicopter, and asking for DNA, it would appear something is going on behind the scenes (thank goodness). One thing I wish LE would do is put out a press release asking that if hunters find anything, to please give them a call.
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Why? Wouldn't hunters know to do that anyway, without having to be prompted?? Many bodies have been found by hunters, or someone just out walking. I think they've even found graves where bodies have been buried. I would think if anything significant was found, anyone would be smart enough to call LE and report it.
JMO
 
TxLady2 said:
:please:

Why? Wouldn't hunters know to do that anyway, without having to be prompted?? Many bodies have been found by hunters, or someone just out walking. I think they've even found graves where bodies have been buried. I would think if anything significant was found, anyone would be smart enough to call LE and report it.
JMO
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I would hope they would know, but it sure wouldn't hurt anyone to ask them to keep their eyes open, and if they find clothing or something out of place to call it in- would it?

JMO
 
We cant forget the 1981 abduction and murder of John Walshs son Adam. He was decapitated by Ottis Toole.
 
this article has nothing to do with the girls, but i found it interesting the technique used in the search which had an extremely good success rate according to the article.

Wonder why they dont do this in all missing persons cases when they search land or wooded property in missing persons cases. I wish they would!

http://www.kcci.com/news/national/M...ol/-/9357144/16976644/-/12oa2alz/-/index.html

Using ground-penetrating radar, Kimmerle's team has located what she says appear to be 18 more remains than previously thought to have been buried there. After clearing the area, her team has determined that a total of 49 graves exist.

Read more: http://www.kcci.com/news/national/M...6976644/-/12oa2alz/-/index.html#ixzz29if9rSE6

MOO
ArtzyPantz
 
I read that article a few days ago Artzypants. What the heck went on there? My heart sinks to what they had to endure there.

The ground penetrating device would require a place or places to search for one. I'm not sure there is one here or not that's specific to search?

Jimmy Hoffa wasn't found even though they used this technique recently, I believe on that driveway. May be different equipment?
 
Something to keep in mind is that serial killers evolve with experience.

For instance, Gary Ridgway started off staging his first victims in such a way that he could go back and look at their remains to re-live the crime. Then he realised that looking at the remains of past victims didn't satisfy him the way he thought it would, so he quit doing it. He started utilising remote dump sites for pragmatic reasons (no need to re-visit remains and less likely to be caught).

Ted Bundy also varied quite a bit. He started out bludgeoning his first proven victims in their beds and then moved on to attacking/abduction his victims so he could indulge his necrophiliac desires. He was the opposite of Ridgway in a sense (Ridgway lost interest in the bodies of his victims whereas the dead body was the point of the whole exercise for Bundy).

While I agree it is unlikely that Jessica Ridgeway is related to Elizabeth and Lyric's case, there are certain similarities that make me think it's at the outer edge of possible. Maybe he discovered that what he really enjoyed was watching the community freak out and so he upped the ante with Jessica so he could enjoy even more community freakout.

It's not likely but it's possible. And it's dangerous to rule victims in or out via MO since that can morph with experience.
 
artzypantz said:
this article has nothing to do with the girls, but i found it interesting the technique used in the search which had an extremely good success rate according to the article.

Wonder why they dont do this in all missing persons cases when they search land or wooded property in missing persons cases. I wish they would!

http://www.kcci.com/news/national/M...ol/-/9357144/16976644/-/12oa2alz/-/index.html

Using ground-penetrating radar, Kimmerle's team has located what she says appear to be 18 more remains than previously thought to have been buried there. After clearing the area, her team has determined that a total of 49 graves exist.

Read more: http://www.kcci.com/news/national/M...6976644/-/12oa2alz/-/index.html#ixzz29if9rSE6

MOO
ArtzyPantz
Click to expand...

I am so glad that someone kept following up on that case. My heart broke for those poor victims back in 2008 when the first stories broke. The surviving victims told horrific stories of abuse at that so-called school and were met largely with yawns and "so what? that was years ago and you have no proof."

Classic re-victimization.

I wonder how long it will be before someone in the Florida legal system or state government finally says "you know, you were right and we were wrong. We are so sorry you went through that and we are doubly sorry we doubted you."

Just frickin' apologise!
 
Dr. Know? said:
I read that article a few days ago Artzypants. What the heck went on there? My heart sinks to what they had to endure there.

The ground penetrating device would require a place or places to search for one. I'm not sure there is one here or not that's specific to search?

Jimmy Hoffa wasn't found even though they used this technique recently, I believe on that driveway. May be different equipment?
Click to expand...

In the recent Jimmy Hoffa search, LE drilled into the driveway slab (and perhaps the basement slab) of a Detroit home where a witness from the 70s claims he saw suspicious activity. They used ground penetrating radar and found an unexplained void under the slab. They drilled and extracted a core sample to test for products of decomposition but didn't find any, so they declined to further rip up the slab.

In my opinion, after 40 years, I think it is possible the witness saw something at some house under construction... but did he accurately remember which house? and was it really from 1977, could it have been something a little earlier that he has accidentally confabulated?

Lots of reasons to doubt the testimony, in my opinion.

My bet is that Jimmy Hoffa's body probably met the same end as Helen Brach's body. In both cases, the victims are clearly deceased but the bodies were never found.

It was widely rumoured in the horse world that Helen Brach's body went into the steel smelting furnace at one of the steel plants in Gary Indiana (borders on eastern Chicago). There have been some rumours for years that Jimmy Hoffa went into a steel smelter as well.
 
artzypantz said:
this article has nothing to do with the girls, but i found it interesting the technique used in the search which had an extremely good success rate according to the article.

Wonder why they dont do this in all missing persons cases when they search land or wooded property in missing persons cases. I wish they would!

http://www.kcci.com/news/national/M...ol/-/9357144/16976644/-/12oa2alz/-/index.html

Using ground-penetrating radar, Kimmerle's team has located what she says appear to be 18 more remains than previously thought to have been buried there. After clearing the area, her team has determined that a total of 49 graves exist.

Read more: http://www.kcci.com/news/national/M...6976644/-/12oa2alz/-/index.html#ixzz29if9rSE6

MOO
ArtzyPantz
Click to expand...

As to why they don't use ground penetrating radar in every case, I've learned from the Keith Bennett search forum (not on WS; run by his brother Alan). Over the years, they've used all sorts of cutting edge (at the time) technology to find Keith's body to no avail.

From that forum, I learned that ground penetrating radar equipment is rather heavy, unwieldy and delicate. Kinda looks like a super souped up lawnmower. They tried it on Saddleworth Moor and found it totally useless since the Moor is basically a huge sponge of semi-decayed vegetative matter up to 300 feet in places.

GPR works better the harder the surface it is tried on. Solid ice works great and so does pavement (used in finding the possible tomb of Richard III which was under a parking lot). Heavy clay soils and ground that is mostly rock (desert) is really good.

Where it does not do well is over ground that is moist. On the moors, they figured out that it was only penetrating about 3 inches into the ground, which was not useful (if Keith's body was 3 inches down, the ground probes would find it, no need for GPR).

GPR is also slow. When they tried it in Keith's case, they would mark out an area of about 30 feet long x 10 feet wide to check in one day.

So GPR is most useful when you have a general idea of where the body may be located and the area is as close to solid as possible.

Neither of those things apply in Elizabeth and Lyric's cases. Nor, sadly, in Keith's case (and his family has been looking for him for over 48 years now and they have not given up).
 
Dr. Know? said:
I read that article a few days ago Artzypants. What the heck went on there? My heart sinks to what they had to endure there.

The ground penetrating device would require a place or places to search for one. I'm not sure there is one here or not that's specific to search?

Jimmy Hoffa wasn't found even though they used this technique recently, I believe on that driveway. May be different equipment?
Click to expand...

OT

GrainneDhu & Dr Know.....

I couldnt believe what i read about that place either! I sure hope all those people / children went to heaven! So disgusting! Then i was reading about the boy scouts and my Lord these things sure make you wonder about every person you meet or know any more!

MOO
ArtzyPantz
 
GrainneDhu said:
As to why they don't use ground penetrating radar in every case, I've learned from the Keith Bennett search forum (not on WS; run by his brother Alan). Over the years, they've used all sorts of cutting edge (at the time) technology to find Keith's body to no avail.

From that forum, I learned that ground penetrating radar equipment is rather heavy, unwieldy and delicate. Kinda looks like a super souped up lawnmower. They tried it on Saddleworth Moor and found it totally useless since the Moor is basically a huge sponge of semi-decayed vegetative matter up to 300 feet in places.

GPR works better the harder the surface it is tried on. Solid ice works great and so does pavement (used in finding the possible tomb of Richard III which was under a parking lot). Heavy clay soils and ground that is mostly rock (desert) is really good.

Where it does not do well is over ground that is moist. On the moors, they figured out that it was only penetrating about 3 inches into the ground, which was not useful (if Keith's body was 3 inches down, the ground probes would find it, no need for GPR).

GPR is also slow. When they tried it in Keith's case, they would mark out an area of about 30 feet long x 10 feet wide to check in one day.

So GPR is most useful when you have a general idea of where the body may be located and the area is as close to solid as possible.

Neither of those things apply in Elizabeth and Lyric's cases. Nor, sadly, in Keith's case (and his family has been looking for him for over 48 years now and they have not given up).
Click to expand...

Wowee! What an awesome explaination!! thanks so much for taking the time to post this!
I hope you dont mind but i shared your post with the folks on the Michelle Parker Missing Thread at WS.
ArtzyPantz
 
artzypantz said:
Wowee! What an awesome explaination!! thanks so much for taking the time to post this!
I hope you dont mind but i shared your post with the folks on the Michelle Parker Missing Thread at WS.
ArtzyPantz
Click to expand...

How could I mind the sincerest form of flattery? Thank you! <blush>
 
Am glad to read that neighborhoods are being revisited.
I pray for Lyric and Lizzy everyday.
Where are they? :(
Praying their parents are doing ok......
 
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