IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #22

[tlcya]

A sportsman who has a ATV knows they can go anyplace with a ATV. I think the guy put them across a ATV wrapped & tied a tarp to them then disposed of the bodies. A ATV doesn't have license plates. That could even be the way he lured them to go with him. By offering them a ride.

He may of seen them headed toward the lake jumped on his wheeler & followed them or came in a different direction. Totally possible. A ATV has excessive speed. We own 4.

I think it was someone who knew the area & by using a ATV nobody would pay attention to his coming or going. A chest freezer would work to put the bodies in until nobody was looking.

ATV's have headlights & he probably disposed of the bodies at night, when he knew he'd be safe.He probably didn't care where he disposed of the bodies or care when they were found as long as he was long gone,

I think the idea of an ATV being used to get the bodies to the location is really quiet probable and could explain why the bodies are that distance from one another. If perp has bodies of both girls secured across the back he simply needs to unsecure, shove the body off the ATV and let it roll down the incline. And the same with the second. Picture the apparent sandy silty rise just above where girls were found, maybe the first body took an odd roll due to the overgrowth doesn't roll as far down as perp hopes. Perp pulls up just a bit, shoves the other off back of ATV and it rolls/slides down to end slightly further away from the first. Perp could accomplish this in literally minutes.

For those of you that believe the girls were killed immediately after or close to the time of abduction and the dumped right away, what are the theories about their bodies being so well preserved? I have no idea what to believe but I just can't figure out how they could be so well-preserved and intact after 5 months in the wilderness. Is there some environmental or biological reason that this could have occurred without any additional "refrigeration"?

I have not seen confirmation that they were so well-preserved as yet; if there something to this effect? I have seen various statements about being "instantly recognizable" but that can mean a number of things, IMO.

You could be right. That quote about making an "eyeball ID" and then LE saying they didn't look like they had been out in the elements for 4 or 5 months and that they didn't need the parents to make an ID is what I'm thinking of. I guess we just don't have enough info yet.

Much will depend on the Time of Death(s) - as yet no details released to the public ... not even to HLN Talking Heads ! And means of death if that can be determined.

LE/CBI has released NO FACTS yet. No estimates of time at location have
been released. Nothing. Nada. If and when these facts are released then
the public may be able to help - until then its pure speculation...

It could be nothing more than "two distinct bodies/remains ... small not
adult corpses" and the probability of that being x,y, or z in that low
population area at this time is >>> 90%+. We still dont have any solid
facts from LE! NOTHING! Dont know iof remains or whole bodies, time of
death, etc etc etc ....

If they want help from the public they have to give the public something
to work with ... and the longer this goes the further away a solution gets!
The murderer could be in Argentina by then.

There is one single reporter for a network known better for it's drama than for serious investigative reporting who claimed that he had a source that said, blah blah blah.

I think the reason the bodies were ID'd so quickly is exactly what Abben said: the bodies were the right general size and there are no other local children missing who fit the description. Ollipop, a verified local who is related by marriage to the families, posted that he was told that the girls' clothing was found with the bodies.

I think putting all those conditions together, the bodies could have been down to skeletal remains and still been tentatively identified immediately.

Someone, I cannot remember who, pointed out that this very same reporter made sensational claims in another case from an alleged LE source. The claims turned out to be wrong and the source turned out to be a reserve officer who was directing traffic and never got close to the crime scene.

I believe the bodies have been there all along. We have nothing to indicate otherwise except a lack of clarity from LE about there confidence so quickly it was the girls and one iinvestigative reporter's unnamed source.

I am staying open to the possibility of the girls being preserved and dumped more recently or kept alive til more recently and am willing to speculate on it in he absense of disputing facts but will not simply take it as truth either.

With so little known right now all we really have is speculation.

Good moning friends amost caught up and on my second cup of joe.

 

[B4igo2it]

I believe the reward has been for the arrest and conviction of whoever took the girls.

Cedar Valley Crime Stoppers
Thursday, 06 December 2012 10:56

The Cedar Valley Crime Stoppers, with the blessings of Elizabeth and Lyric's families, would like to announce the continuation of the reward drive.

100% of all donations collected between November 19th and December 19th will go towards a reward for information leading to an arrest.

Personally, I feel that locating the remains does lead to an arrest - but doubt "my" opinion matters here jmo

 

[carbuff]

re: the reward fund -- each fund has its own rules and determinations, but in general the money isn't distributed until after the trial and sentencing. Then the fund administrators sit down to figure out who gets what. If it goes a long time with nobody arrested or charged, they might distribute some of the money earlier -- but there was one case here in MA a while back where the money was returned to the donors.

 

[carbuff]

You could be right. That quote about making an "eyeball ID" and then LE saying they didn't look like they had been out in the elements for 4 or 5 months and that they didn't need the parents to make an ID is what I'm thinking of. I guess we just don't have enough info yet.

LE didn't say that. One of the TV reporters said that.

 

[TxLady2]

That's what we do here, we speculate. Right now we don't have a lot of information to go on so we throw out theories, ask questions and do our best. When we get more facts those theories may change, become more likely, or more impossible. I know it can be frustrating to wade through it when there isn't a lot to go on but it's just kind of how it works.

Speculation is fine, as long as it is stated that it is either that or an opinion, and not thrown out as fact. I know that your speculations are usually worded as questions, and that's good, you're on the right track.
You asked if it were possible that the girls were left there while still alive and possibly died from exposure. Sure... but let's think logically for a minute. Do you believe that once the perp left the spot that these two little girls would have just sat there and starved to death? Assuming that they were not bleeding profusely or both legs were broken, of course.
I don't think so. I think they would have run, walked or even crawled away from that spot and tried to get to someplace where they could get help. In shock, scared and traumatized... sure. But I think instinct kicks in eventually.
And also, consider this: what perp is going to leave his victims alive on the chance that someone might come along and rescue them, OR the chance that the victims can manage to get to a safer place and eventually identify him? Well, some have, of course, but it's really rare, and most of the time it's due to the perp thinking they are dead or very close to it.
Is it possible they were alive when left there? Sure. Is it likely? Not so much, because I don't think they would have survived out there for 5 months. If I am not mistaken, you were asking this because you were attempting to justify their bodies not being completely decomposed, right? So because of the time element, no, they didn't just recently die, unless they were kept somewhere else prior to being taken to that location.
I hope this makes sense.

I'm sorry, in reading back I realized you were not the poster who asked the question of the girls being left there alive. It was another poster, so I apologize for my mistake!!! Hope you will forgive me.

 

[janie]

Regarding our speculation of the condition of the girls when they were found, don't forget they were sent to the medical examiner's office a couple of hours away and the next day the ME came directly to the scene. To me, that may mean some body parts may have been unaccounted for so he/she/they came to the scene to look? To me, that would lean towards scattered bones?

 

[cindersoot]

With this area being primitive, would park rangers go into the area from time to time to look around and if so, what type(s) of vehicles do park rangers drive?

Would a person need to park and walk to see the site where the girls were found?

Do the Iowa parks hire summer students?

TIA and IMO

Iowa parks do not hire summer students. The area in my opinion didn't have a park ranger unless there is a camping area that needs to be managed. It seems to be a remote area known by hunters and fisherman and there are a lot of places just like that in Iowa.

 

[not_my_kids]

One of the only statements that I have seen from LE is that the families have not viewed the bodies/remains, and there was no reason for them to.

This leads me to believe that they were not recognizable, because if they had been, I see no reason why the family or representative of the family wouldn't have viewed them to speed up the identification process.

The way I see it, they were identifiable due to the clothes they were wearing, where they were found, and the size of the bodies. It wasn't rocket science, and even less so considering that they were found together, reducing the chances that either body would belong to anyone but Lyric or Elizabeth. MOO.

I don't think they were frozen, I don't think they were alive for more than a few hours post-abduction.

 

[tlcya]

No ... the only source for 'some clothing being found, bodies being identifiable and the area being a dump site' (not murder scene) is a talking head (JVM). There have not been any other statements about this.

Not quite. Verified insider ollipop, who is related to the family and a WS member said clothing was key in assisting in the unofficial quickly made ID. But you are right in that the only MSM point of origin about clothing being found was HLN and not LE.

For what its worth, I am pretty confident in ollipop's veracity. Much less so in HLN's, which is why I am much more prepared to believe the clothing angle than the body preservation, girls alive til recently angle.

 

[cindersoot]

Regarding our speculation of the condition of the girls when they were found, don't forget they were sent to the medical examiner's office a couple of hours away and the next day the ME came directly to the scene. To me, that may mean some body parts may have been unaccounted for so he/she/they came to the scene to look? To me, that would lean towards scattered bones?

If it were scattered bones than how did they know it was the girls? Abben said the bodies were small in size. jmo

 

[Foxfire]

Regarding our speculation of the condition of the girls when they were found, don't forget they were sent to the medical examiner's office a couple of hours away and the next day the ME came directly to the scene. To me, that may mean some body parts may have been unaccounted for so he/she/they came to the scene to look? To me, that would lean towards scattered bones?

Regarding the autopsy report, this is one of the fastest turnarounds of two autopsy reports in my memory.

 

[cindersoot]

One of the only statements that I have seen from LE is that the families have not viewed the bodies/remains, and there was no reason for them to.

This leads me to believe that they were not recognizable, because if they had been, I see no reason why the family or representative of the family wouldn't have viewed them to speed up the identification process.

The way I see it, they were identifiable due to the clothes they were wearing, where they were found, and the size of the bodies. It wasn't rocket science, and even less so considering that they were found together, reducing the chances that either body would belong to anyone but Lyric or Elizabeth. MOO.

I don't think they were frozen, I don't think they were alive for more than a few hours post-abduction.

It leads me to think that they didn't want the families traumatized. And that LE clearly could tell it was the girls.

 

[B4igo2it]

Having a drug addiction is more money than most people can afford. People don't set out to become addicted, it happens largely by accident; part of the problem is that far from everyone who tries a drug becomes addicted to it, so there's always examples of social users around to help people believe that they too will be a social user.

I'm not saying that they did the right thing but I honestly believe that addiction is something that happens to a person without their intentional consent and once it does, it is a horrendous thing. This article says it all a lot better than I can:

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/articles/5605/me--my-monkey

I think that the perpetrator is the one who is completely to blame for killing Elizabeth and Lyric. At this point, I have no idea who that person is. For all I know, it was someone who saw Elizabeth at church and became obsessed with her. If that turns out to be true, it doesn't make it Heather and Drew's fault for taking their child to church.

:rose: Well said & thank you

 

[tlcya]

I meant that the search for scattered bones can take days..sifting and searching. Photographing and recording the location of everything. It appears that little if any recovery on that level was necessary. LE is said to be careful, very thorough..they want to solve this case. Finding something, anything, that is out of place, and will lead to an arrest is their priority now. I think that is what leads to speculation that the bodies were not completely decomposed..and then why.

In no way is anyone implying that response was anything other than immediate, and thorough.

I think the bodies were probably originally in bags or containers. Maybe some container that would look like hunting or fishing gear?

There is a really disturbing phenomenon that could cause a very dead body to be easily recognizable. Warning: it's really, really disturbing!!! Please do not read further if you aren't totally sure you can be clinical about this sort of thing It's called adipocere, or grave wax. I had a sweet dog it happened to, and unfortunately I did see her again very long after death. She looked the same, but made of different materials, if that makes sense. I hope that helps in some case sometime; I really hate to speak of something so disturbing. There are images on Google if you are interested in the clinical aspects of it.

If that statements turns out to be true that means one of two things. 1) They have not been dead since missing. 2) They had been preserved for some time. jmo

Pearl..what I originally referred to was the days and days of sifting, searching, etc. for scattered bones, plant material. Because the girls were recovered very quickly in comparison, it makes me (and others) wonder if they were not scattered, which would imply lack of animal interference, and a shorter time in the elements. Seems to me a wildlife area close to water would be frequented by..wildlife.

That's all. No one said anything about LE being slow. They want to solve this case, and put the right person in prison.

Someone (apologies for not remembering which member) posted the other day about a case where a killer had sprinkled cayane (sp?) Pepper over the body he had disposed of in a shallow grave to inhibit predation and keep critters from digging up and scattering remains. I wonder if some similare inhibiting mechanism could have been used in this case?

I realize we don't know if these girls were directly exposed to elements and predators and if so for what period of time so I am just throwing it out there to see if it sticks to the wall

 

[janie]

If it were scattered bones than how did they know it was the girls? Abben said the bodies were small in size. jmo

Size of the skeletons? Clothing? Hair? Shoes/flip-flops? Aunt Tammy spoke on NG or JVM about the girls probably not being in the lake because they would have kicked off their shoes. If memory serves me correctly, one had purple high tops she was proud of that she wouldn't have wanted to get wet, and the other had some sort of Elmo or cartoon character flip flops? If I saw only the shoes and the flip flops, those girls would have immediately come to my mind.

Plus, as Abben said, they had no other missing persons and what are the chances of 2 corpses in the same area and two girls were the only missing persons?

 

[janie]

Regarding the autopsy report, this is one of the fastest turnarounds of two autopsy reports in my memory.

In your opinion, is there any significance to that news, i.e. maybe not a lot left to examine?

 

[roseofsharon]

I don't think this crime was committed by a RSO, as his DNA would be in CODIS. It is hard to believe a RSO would dispose of the bodies this way, knowing his DNA could show up on the bodies or on the clothing of the girls.

However, the perp could be a sex offender whom has never been caught and not in the database.

The perp may have gone to Meyers Lake to fish on July 13, 2012, due to the Wapsipinicon River having lower levels and possibly live along that river.

Just my own thoughts.

 

[tlcya]

If it were scattered bones than how did they know it was the girls? Abben said the bodies were small in size. jmo

Good morning cinder, the adult body has 206 bones, an infant up to 350. There may have been limited scattering.

GRAPHIC

Predation by smaller animals might have been limited to smaller things like digits (fingers, toes) while still leaving the majority of bones unscattered.

We just don't know. Were the bodies wrapped in tarp or plastic? Were they buried in shallow silt like sandy grave? Were they there months or days?

We just don't know.

Hoping autopsy results are released soon and may clear some of these questions.

 

[Foxfire]

In your opinion, is there any significance to that news, i.e. maybe not a lot left to examine?

janie, from past cases the reports were not back for weeks. In many urban areas, especially during the Holiday seasons it could even be longer.

Example: Karen Swift(TN) was abducted 10/30/2011-Her remains were sent to the ME on 12/10/2011-

http://www.stategazette.com/story/1796485.html
Sheriff's dept., TBI awaiting coroner's report on Swift (12/20/11)
Dyer County Sheriff's Department investigators and the TBI are still awaiting the results from the Shelby County Medical Examiner's Office for the cause of death in the Karen Swift murder case.

 

[B4igo2it]

Thinking out loud here ...

if the girls have been held captive, they could have escaped, walked the river and only made it this far.