IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #22

[Foxfire]

ok, new topic...

Let's assume for a minute that JVM's reporter is correct (I know! Ugh), and that he did hear from an LE source that the bodies were at a dump site, not a murder site.

How would that be determined? Absence of blood? Wouldn't blood be gone anyway after a few weeks? Maybe it was obvious they had been shot, but there were no bullet casings? How else could they be positive it was just a dump site?

After reading the letter to the abductor, I am leaning toward the info Jon Lieberman revealed on JVM being plausible.

Imo, the murder site could have been only a hundred yards away.

Great site, JaimeInLA

Forensic Entomology Overview
http://www.amentsoc.org/insects/insects-and-man/forensic-entomology.html




1. Introduction to forensic entomology

2. What happens after death?

3. Rigor mortis

4. Estimating time of death with Forensic Entomology

5. How to estimate age of blowfly eggs, larvae, pupae and adults

6. Has the body been moved after death?

 

[pearl]

I think the person is definitely a local that was familiar with the park. IMO no one would drive down a desolate dirt road in hopes of finding a place to dump a couple of bodies. This person(s) had a destination.

Would it be easier for a person to get to the place where the girls were found by going to the dead end of the dirt road and through the woods? Looks like a shorter distance to me.

 

[24Roses]

This is only my second post here, but lots of thoughts coming out now. In reference to when & where the girls were found:
1. If I recall, the recanvess of Evansdale took place in late Oct./early Nov. I remember my local news covering this. Maybe the perp was afraid he was going to get caught & feared he had to take their lives to make sure he wasn't caught (or so they think).
2. I have read alot of cases where LE refers to body & remains. In this case, I believe LE knows they were placed there recently & is a body, not bones.
3. I also believe they were placed there recently because of LE searching the ditches & scene extensively. As recently as Thanksiving Day, Northern Iowa & Minnesota had a wind advisory. I remember this because we were traveling that day & were concerned about the wind. If there was any light weight evidence nearby, to me it could possibly blow several times & quite far away. This makes me think LE knows it's not too late to search for evidence that would (or not) be affected by weather.
4. Once Le possibly releases an estimated TOD & that it is a homicide, the public should think back to if they know anyone with unusual cuts or scratched on their body. If the girls fought, (hard for me to write:anguish maybe they would have a difficult time explaining where the injuries came from.
5. I would think they would need to take care of the bodies in daylight. That terrain looks to me like if they did this in the dark, they might get injured or have cuts/scratches from the sticks & weeds.

 

[GrainneDhu]

To further support my theory that they were taken to this location alive and killed at the site they were found. There is a clearing at this location. If they were trying to hide them deep in the woods, they would not be in an area that is more clear of trees than other areas. I believe they were sexually assaulted by one or more people and killed the same day.

It's actually easier to hide something in the edge habitat between a forest and a meadow such as that clearing. Once the canopy gets really thick, there isn't as much ground vegetation.

 

[princessk]

The bodies show if they've been moved after death.

When you die, the blood stops flowing, so it settles at the lowest point. If the body is later moved, it still shows colouration where the blood originally settled, and of course critter activity is increased in these parts of the body as a result.

It's got a name but I just can't think of it...someone else will know...

I don't know the name, I just know we called it settling. I used to be an EMT, and we could usually determine a few things by where the blood was pooled on a body.

 

[passionflower]

Seriously!!! There is a list!! Ill find the link and the real estate list if they are still available.

I hope the mode don't mind. Its all public info.

maybe meth houses have to be disclosed before sale because of the chemicals?????

 

[JaimeInLA]

It is listed as a meth house? What does that mean? Meth house for sale in the realestate ads?:waitasec:

They have to disclose it because there is massive contamination.

 

[Marilynilpa]

That really depends on the physique of the person. When I was about 16, I helped a friend lay a concrete patio. One of my jobs was to go to the shed and grab a new bag of concrete when we got low. I'd pick it up and carry it over my shoulder to where it was mixed, which was about 70 feet and uphill (not a real steep one). People were rather surprised that I could do it since the bags weighed 125 pounds, and I weighed 105. I'm sure that a reasonably fit man could carry 145# that way without too much effort.

BBM

Especially if his adrenaline was flowing. People have lifted cars off of accident victims, which they couldn't have done without that adrenaline boost.

 

[passionflower]

VERY PERSONAL
Men on meth.....sexual or non sexual?
Can they rape?
or impotent?

 

[Marilynilpa]

This is only my second post here, but lots of thoughts coming out now. In reference to when & where the girls were found:
1. If I recall, the recanvess of Evansdale took place in late Oct./early Nov. I remember my local news covering this. Maybe the perp was afraid he was going to get caught & feared he had to take their lives to make sure he wasn't caught (or so they think).
2. I have read alot of cases where LE refers to body & remains. In this case, I believe LE knows they were placed there recently & is a body, not bones.
3. I also believe they were placed there recently because of LE searching the ditches & scene extensively. As recently as Thanksiving Day, Northern Iowa & Minnesota had a wind advisory. I remember this because we were traveling that day & were concerned about the wind. If there was any light weight evidence nearby, to me it could possibly blow several times & quite far away. This makes me think LE knows it's not too late to search for evidence that would (or not) be affected by weather.
4. Once Le possibly releases an estimated TOD & that it is a homicide, the public should think back to if they know anyone with unusual cuts or scratched on their body. If the girls fought, (hard for me to write:anguish maybe they would have a difficult time explaining where the injuries came from.
5. I would think they would need to take care of the bodies in daylight. That terrain looks to me like if they did this in the dark, they might get injured or have cuts/scratches from the sticks & weeds.

:seeya:Welcome to Websleuths, and thanks for your post. You make some very good points.

 

[Progressforward]

maybe meth houses have to be disclosed before sale because of the chemicals?????

Yes, they do.

 

[Marilynilpa]

VERY PERSONAL
Men on meth.....sexual or non sexual?
Can they rape?
or impotent?

In addition to increasing the need for sex and enabling the user to engage in prolonged sexual activity, methamphetamine lowers inhibitions and may cause users to behave recklessly or to become forgetful. Users may even report negative experiences after prolonged use, which contradict reported feelings, thoughts, and attitudes achieved at similar dosages under similar circumstances but at earlier periods of an extended or prolonged cycle.

http://www.drug-rehabs.org/iarticles/34/Meth_And_Sexual_Behavior

I don't believe impotence is a side-effect of meth use, based on what I've found by googling the topic.

 

[passionflower]

Maybe LE has info on suspect(s) all along and just needed the angels bodies for more PROOF!
Hoping for arrest(s) very soon!
Maybe this is why we know NOTHING yet!

 

[JaimeInLA]

This one shows the distance of the dirty path/road to the discovery site. That is a lot of woods to carry bodies through only to dump them in a clearing.

Wow. Great visual. I think you just convinced me that the girls were led into that spot by the perp. This all makes much more sense if they walked in under their own foot power. Now if we only knew when. And by whom!

 

[GrainneDhu]

I don't know if gravel or dirt. I am in MN and only base it off the photo. Either way, I doubt anyone would drive down a gravely dirt road unless they knew where they were going.

Oh, I definitely agree with you.

This case just screams of local knowledge.

My personal theory is that one thing that ties both locations is that they are very close to places teens are known to use for partying.

One reason the type of road matters is because it makes a difference in the maintenance. One theory that has been posted (I can't remember who, my apologies) is that the perp does road maintenance for a living.

Gravel roads have the shoulders mowed 2-3 times a year to keep the vegetation down and to prevent trees from taking over. They're graded once every year or every other year (<grrrrrrh>) and they get gravel dumped on them on about the same schedule.

Dirt roads, such as Maiden Lane, are usually not maintained at all. If someone needs that road to access their property it is up to them to keep it accessible unless something big happens, like the road washes out.

So if the road into 7 Bridges really is classified as a dirt road, that pretty much eliminates road maintenance as the way that area was found.

Looking at the photo, it looks too smooth to be a dirt road. It looks to me like it is definitely classified as gravel. Which opens up the road maintenance theory as a possibility.

For no real reason, though, I prefer the theory that the two places are linked as teen party spots.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

8621051]It is snowing here right now, too[/B].

Y'all up there are much more marginal on water than Iowa is, even in good years. Seems like it's too much or way too little for you most years.

Such a beautiful area but hard, hard country to live in.

sooooooo jealous! lease:

 

[foxbluff]

No they were not necessarily headed to the lake. Only the lawn watering guy supposed saw them go by, and that timeframe is shaky. They were headed west on Brovan and there are no credable sitings after that. Zero. Somebody would have seen them at some point going that distance. My gut is that they never made it there. Too far ,too fast, without being noticed???

I totally agree! I have always believed the bikes were staged at the lake. IMO, Abben believes that, too. One of the statements he made about the video showing what is assumed the girls on their bikes was: (paraphasing) it's important to note that they're riding in the opposite direction of the lake.

 

[GrainneDhu]

VERY PERSONAL
Men on meth.....sexual or non sexual?
Can they rape?
or impotent?

Yes.

In fact, that is one way some men talk themselves into trying out meth. Unlike marijuana (where the greatest desire is for snacks) or alcohol, meth users retain sexual ability and it also gives them more stamina.

 

[trigger]

When I heard they found the girls bodies I thought of Dylan and Shasta Groene. They were kidnapped by monster Joseph Duncan. He had them in a secluded mountain camp site for weeks. Sexually abused them and shot 9yo brother Dylan twice, once in the stomach and again in the head, then he set the boys body on fire in front of Shasta. This monster also video taped their abuse. One video was of Dylan being tortured and hanged until he was unconscious and nearly dead.

IMO I think he brought them their alive weeks or months later and finally killed them there.

I wonder if he had a camp fire where he left traces of can food etc.

Maybe he killed them before hunting season started. (don't know when hunting season starts though).

 

[JaimeInLA]

VERY PERSONAL
Men on meth.....sexual or non sexual?
Can they rape?
or impotent?

Extremely hyper sexual. And yes, they can rape. Meth not only makes users hyper sexual, it also makes them violent.

I HIGHLY recommend that everyone interested in this case watch the first few seasons of Breaking Bad on DVD. Granted, it is fictional, but it is based in reality, and you will learn a LOT about the meth business.