IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[not_my_kids]

Were their clothes found with them too? Does anyone have confirmation?
:rose::rose:

Heather stated today in the interview (yesterday now, I guess) that LE showed them the girls shoes after the bodies were found as part of the ID process. IIRC she also said that they were shown some other things, but that was about the way she put it, no specifics on anything but the girl's shoes.

 

[cluciano63]

I can't imagine the girls going voluntarily with anyone, whether they knew them or not, and leaving behind a purse and phone. To me, this implies force. And that could mean two abductors, not positively of course, but it would make sense that one was ready to drive off, or it took two to get them into the car quickly.

Most little girls I have seen with purses can't be parted from them. Not to mention their bikes.

I am picturing two losers driving around on a Friday with nothing better to do, maybe in a car full of beer cans. If so, let's hope one of them decides to rat on the other.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I'm actually breaking down and watching the interview. I had just skipped through it earlier. Drew is looking to Heather himself, but he is pretty strong himself. To have gotten that call, with no indication of the news, and to function in that moment, that shows incredible strength.

Heather herself is almost too calm and composed. She is a woman of amazing strength and faith, but I don't know how much longer her composure will hold. It seems to be cracking at the edges, and I think it will come when the girls COD is released and details begin to leak out.

I think they are helping their other kids through it in the healthiest way they can, and in fact, much healthier than in some other families where a child has gone missing. I hope the other kids are able to get past it, but I have to say that if any family can grow up healthy in the shadow of something like this, this one can. I just hope they didn't push the kids too fast to go back to school, and carry on like normal in light of the body discovery.

It was nice to have confirmation from Heather that all the RSO's in the immediate area have been checked out thoroughly.

I can guarantee that the celebration of life for Elizabeth will be very closely watched by LE. And I hope that the person that they will be looking there does show up. And I hope that the pictures and videos and favorite toys will cause a guilt that eats a hole straight through them.

Does anyone notice near the end of the interview where Heather references "these three little girls" and then corrects herself to two little girls? Simple slip of the tongue or something else?

BBM

First off, I want to say I know nothing more about Heather's implanted defibrillator problems than have been published in msm. I don't know her personally and I have no personal knowledge of her medical details.

In general, people who have implanted defibrillators have a problem where their heart goes into fibrillation (sort of all over fluttering rather than pumping blood). Part of the treatment is an implanted defibrillator but it's not the only treatment. When those implanted defibrillators go off, it is intensely painful; someone I know who has one says it is like being kicked in the chest by a horse and it can drop him to his knees. Not exactly pleasant.

So, the other part of the treatment is usually drugs to regulate blood pressure and heart rate. The drugs that help regulate heart rate that I know of are also minor tranquilizers. For people with fibrillation problems it is the effect of regulating heart rate that is wanted rather than the tranquilizing effect.

Over time, people tend to habituate to the tranquilizing effect but in times of stress (and defibrillator malfunction), the regular dosage of medication often needs to be changed and the tranquilizing side effect is felt by the patient again.

I have no idea whether this applies to Heather or not. I'm not a doctor let alone her doctor, I don't know her personally.

However I'm inclined to think that maybe there was a hidden blessing in her implanted defibrillator malfunction.

 

[georger]

BBM

First off, I want to say I know nothing more about Heather's implanted defibrillator problems than have been published in msm. I don't know her personally and I have no personal knowledge of her medical details.

In general, people who have implanted defibrillators have a problem where their heart goes into fibrillation (sort of all over fluttering rather than pumping blood). Part of the treatment is an implanted defibrillator but it's not the only treatment. When those implanted defibrillators go off, it is intensely painful; someone I know who has one says it is like being kicked in the chest by a horse and it can drop him to his knees. Not exactly pleasant.

So, the other part of the treatment is usually drugs to regulate blood pressure and heart rate. The drugs that help regulate heart rate that I know of are also minor tranquilizers. For people with fibrillation problems it is the effect of regulating heart rate that is wanted rather than the tranquilizing effect.

Over time, people tend to habituate to the tranquilizing effect but in times of stress (and defibrillator malfunction), the regular dosage of medication often needs to be changed and the tranquilizing side effect is felt by the patient again.

I have no idea whether this applies to Heather or not. I'm not a doctor let alone her doctor, I don't know her personally.

However I'm inclined to think that maybe there was a hidden blessing in her implanted defibrillator malfunction.

I am totally lost!

How does this (above) apply in this case ?

Are you saying one of the girls had a serious medical condition and could have died from that
vs being murdered?

 

[GrainneDhu]

I am totally lost!

How does this (above) apply in this case ?

Are you saying one of the girls had a serious medical condition and could have died from that
vs being murdered?

No.

The comment I was responding to was by not_my_kids: "Heather herself is almost too calm and composed."

I was offering a possible explanation for why Heather remains so incredibly composed.

 

[mnegri1973]

I am totally lost!

How does this (above) apply in this case ?

Are you saying one of the girls had a serious medical condition and could have died from that
vs being murdered?

Heather Collins is the one with the serious heart condition.

HTH

Mel ~


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM

First off, I want to say I know nothing more about Heather's implanted defibrillator problems than have been published in msm. I don't know her personally and I have no personal knowledge of her medical details.

In general, people who have implanted defibrillators have a problem where their heart goes into fibrillation (sort of all over fluttering rather than pumping blood). Part of the treatment is an implanted defibrillator but it's not the only treatment. When those implanted defibrillators go off, it is intensely painful; someone I know who has one says it is like being kicked in the chest by a horse and it can drop him to his knees. Not exactly pleasant.

So, the other part of the treatment is usually drugs to regulate blood pressure and heart rate. The drugs that help regulate heart rate that I know of are also minor tranquilizers. For people with fibrillation problems it is the effect of regulating heart rate that is wanted rather than the tranquilizing effect.

Over time, people tend to habituate to the tranquilizing effect but in times of stress (and defibrillator malfunction), the regular dosage of medication often needs to be changed and the tranquilizing side effect is felt by the patient again.

I have no idea whether this applies to Heather or not. I'm not a doctor let alone her doctor, I don't know her personally.

However I'm inclined to think that maybe there was a hidden blessing in her implanted defibrillator malfunction.

IIRC there was nothing wrong with the gadget itself, but it had moved in her chest which caused all sorts of pain. She needs surgery to reanchor it properly.

 

[not_my_kids]

I am totally lost!

How does this (above) apply in this case ?

Are you saying one of the girls had a serious medical condition and could have died from that
vs being murdered?

No, the poster was responding to my statement about Heather's composure and how it is possible that Heather's composure could be due in part to the medication that she takes for her heart condition, and the possibility of setting off the defibrillator by becoming too overly emotional.

Which I didn't know, even though I'm on blood pressure meds, they do nothing to tranquilize me, so I wouldn't have known of that side effect otherwise.

 

[GrainneDhu]

No, the poster was responding to my statement about Heather's composure and how it is possible that Heather's composure could be due in part to the medication that she takes for her heart condition, and the possibility of setting off the defibrillator by becoming too overly emotional.

Which I didn't know, even though I'm on blood pressure meds, they do nothing to tranquilize me, so I wouldn't have known of that side effect otherwise.

Yeah, blood pressure meds have totally different side effects.

Many, many more people need blood pressure meds than need heart rate regulators.

 

[hollyblue]

I hate to say this, but after listening to Heather and hearing her say that she didn't feel she needed counseling like the rest of the family because she feels she can pray, I feel like she is seriously in denial. My heart goes out to this family, but in all honesty when it finally hits Heather its going to hit her hard I'm afraid.

I've thought this too and pray that I'm wrong. She feels she has to be strong not only for the children and Drew, but in keeping her focus on Lizzie even after she has been found... with getting involved with other parents of abducted children with regards to laws be changed and awareness to the public. That's a good thing and therapeutic, but all the attention and support she is getting at the moment will subside and that's when I think the therapy will come into play for her. I don't think it's denial as much as coping and avoidance at his point. Her faith is strong and she has given it over to God. As she said, it doesn't matter (to her) what the details of her child's demise was, to her, Lizzie is no more of this earthly plain and in the hands of God, no more to suffer. If this goes to trial, I doubt she will be there for the details or if at all in justice for Lizzie....she knows God will be the judge of the perp(s) and it really doesn't matter who he is. He's just a troubled shell to her with no spirit...so to speak. Her faith is very strong and admirable, but I do worry at the times ahead...but also believe she will seek the help if needed. Right now the perp is unknown to her. It may be a bit tougher when he/she/they are held up to be responsible and known to her. Praying she just digs deeper into the word, holds that faith feverishly knowing he will get her through it in the best possible way. All the hell and bitterness she could go through is only destruction upon herself and her family...and breaths life into an otherwise empty, troubled shell of the persons who did this. IMO, JMO, etc.

 

[hollyblue]

"They report studies which conclude in the majority of cases (72%), the radius from body recovery site to murder scene is less than 200 feet. The distribution was different when it came to journey from the initial contact setting to the murder site: 31% travelled 0-199 feet, whereas 43% trekked 1.5-12 miles."

In this case, we have approximately 20 miles. Did you happen to notice what percentage of perps leave the body up to 20 miles away?

That's interesting.

"... the killers are usually at the initial contact site for legitimate reasons. They either lived in the area or were engaging in some routine. The initial contact site is within 1/4 mile of the victim's last known location in 80% of cases."

In this case, it was 1 mile from where they were last seen on video ... roughly one mile from home (video) to Meyers Lake.

The fact that the abduction (bikes) and bodies were 1 to 20 miles away, rather than what is common in up to 75% of cases ... what does "much farther away than the norm" that tell us?

The norm is a statistic taken by known cases in the study, which mean the low or higher numbers do exist also and are in the realm of probability. My guess is that most of those cases with a shorter distance are around cities/towns with a higher population. Although, rural and many places to hide a body, I think the comfort zone is much greater/wider. imo

 

[GrainneDhu]

The norm is a statistic taken by known cases in the study, which mean the low or higher numbers do exist also and are in the realm of probability. My guess is that most of those cases with a shorter distance are around cities/towns with a higher population. Although, rural and many places to hide a body, I think the comfort zone is much greater/wider. imo

I agree.

It would be a most useful addition to the statistics already collected if someone could calculate the average driving time from the abduction point to the murder site to the dumping site.

I know that, to me, southern California distances seem weirdly distorted because depending on the day and the time of day, the same number of miles can take wildly differing amounts of time to drive.

In Iowa, the conversion of mileage to time outside of towns is fairly straightforward: 1 mile per minute.

So driving 30 miles in Iowa between towns is usually half an hour. In southern California, depending on all sorts of factors, it could be anywhere from half an hour to five hours.

 

[hollyblue]

Actually the AAP American Academy of Pediatrics has started charting people of different heritage on different graphs. Asains grow differently from typical Americans as do people form Mexico and Alaska ... Just look at baby pics from different races... We all grow a little differently

I have no links, but have heard that severe trauma can stunt growth also. I tend to believe it since it can also change the body chemistry in many ways. With me, I physically "matured" a few months before my 13th BD, and a little over a year later had to endure a very traumatic experience at 14. I'm the same size today (maybe shrunk an inch and added 10-15 lbs. over time) as then and was known as the runt of family (both sides). Never could wear my mother's shoes, clothes, etc. and she was only 5'4", and well endowed as well. Unless the tops shrunk!!! All the other females were 5'6" or taller.

 

[superbee]

I totally got ripped off, I'm only 5'2" and didn't start until I was 15. Booooo

Same here

 

[superbee]

I think I graduated with dirt's older brother.....

But Holy Moly! 20? I think maybe I'd be worried to be that old and not having periods.

It does wig me out a bit that girls seem to hit puberty so much sooner than they did even in mu generation. I have been keeping the fish eye on my DD since she was 8 and started smelling a little funky in the pit area after ball games.

I was just CONVINCED she was going to start by the time she was ten, also because although she has my height, she has a much stockier, rounder build than I did at her age and I know that a higher BMI can kickstart early puberty.

But so far, just some very tiny signs...mostly still a big "little" girl. And even more importantly, she is emotionally still a little girl. I just LOVE that. . She'd rather ride her scooter and climb trees and play Barbies than check out boys. Yay!

I have a friend who started when she was 18. She was 5'8". She had 2 periods a year!! She has 3 married sons, and several grandchildren. Next week she will be 92!!

She had a hysterectomy several years ago. Because of the 2 periods a year doctors were very interested in what they would find. Normal, except for a couple of small fibroids that were causing pain and bleeding. Up here, back then, having a hysterectomy was done for uterus problems.

 

[superbee]

The same thing happened to my brother. I had never heard of anyone else having this happen. He is 6'3" now. I remember he took some sort of medication to slow the growth. I was a kid and haven't a clue what it was. He also has had lots of joint issues and severe pain in his legs. Long, long torso. We used to tease him about it.

Sorry for the OT, but I was really interested to hear of another person with this problem.

Brother of a dear friend had the same thing, grew like a weed one year in high school, his feet were so sore he could hardly walk. This was 40 years ago and they lived on a farm. His doctor told his parents to buy a cow and for him to drink that raw milk. It worked!!

 

[rachaellouise]

I feel weird knowing when everyone on here started their periods.. hahaha

 

[Elley Mae]

I hate to say this, but after listening to Heather and hearing her say that she didn't feel she needed counseling like the rest of the family because she feels she can pray, I feel like she is seriously in denial. My heart goes out to this family, but in all honesty when it finally hits Heather its going to hit her hard I'm afraid.

It was so sad to watch her sitting there. I have no idea what is going on between the two (Heather & Drew) but she looked so small sitting there in that chair my heart hurt for her. Watching her body language and listening to her was sad for me. idk jmo

 

[Foxfire]

I doubt that there was DNA. The bodies had most likely been there too long. There probably was sexual assault, as Drew said. The assault probably occurred at 7 Bridges County Park on July 13, when the family has reported that Elizabeth passed away.

otto, I agree that the 7 Bridges Park was likely the site of the sexual assault. LE reported that the location was thought to be only the body dump site. I am sure that there must have been obvious indicators for this conclusion. Imo the area where the sexual attacks occurred would not have been too far away.

Although there was a much larger window of time from abduction to location of remains in this case. This is an interesting study on obtaining, and the microbial decomposition of DNA from flip flops as opposed to shoe insoles:
http://www.forensic.sc.mahidol.ac.th/proceeding/52_kittisak.pdf
(snipped - read more)

DNA RETRIEVAL ON FLIP-FLOPS

Every single piece of evidence recovered in a crime scene has evidential value in terms of forensic aspect. The association of victim, scene and perpetrator must be revealed for a reconstruction of the crime and the resultant DNA is often a crucial tool to identify a perpetrator or exclude an innocent suspect.

As expected, the increasing of DNA amount could generally be observed in 90% of samples at 7-day experiment
compared to 1-day experiment. But 40% of samples from 14-day experiment unexpectedly showed sign of declined DNA amount compared to the 7-day.

This indicated that time length was not the only major affect on
DNA quantity. The decline is more likely due to the process of microbial decomposition (11) as dirt could obviously be seen during the swabbing of the 14-day experimental samples.

Actually there is combination of factors
involved. The variability of individuals in cell shedding ability (1.5.7) was the very first factor to be considered. The previous researchers also studied on shoe insoles from 11 shoes collected from two donor wearers and reported that the insole area gave adequate DNA to produce profiles.

 

[threecrazykids]

I know LE is doing their best on this case, but I'm still frustrated that no arrest has been made.

I just can't comprehend how someone can possibly take 2 little girls in broad daylight, kill them, and dump their bodies and NOT have left something behind (DNA, vehicle caught on camera, someone missing from work, all the factors) and possibly still be out there.

I just keep going back to the Evelyn Miller case where it was like 7 years before they finally charged Fredrickson ONLY because he slipped up and had disclosed info to someone in jail that only the killer would know.

They claim they have DNA, testimonies, etc. but never officially charged him. The family said they knew all along that he was who killed her but the police never made that arrest...he was already IN jail when he was charged.

It just frustrates the hell out of me that they waited for that "slip up" to charge him. Does that somehow seal the deal at putting him away? I certainly hope not because if on some stupid technicality that gets thrown out does that mean that the case is down the drain? Certainly not...

I know that LE has to be extremely diligent in every piece of a case, but to what extent? Do we just continue to "build the case" for decades?

I certainly don't know all their is to know about investigations but it just annoys me how long the "case building" takes sometimes before an arrest is made.

I won't feel relief until an arrest is made...and until then the warnings should be out there in big red letters that yes, they admit there is a killer on the loose and they don't have enough evidence to make an arrest.

I certainly hope LE doesn't build this case the same way poor little Evelyn's was built...all it takes would be for THIS double murder to keep his mouth shut and we may never know who did this.


So frustrating...sorry for the mini rant.:banghead: