IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[otto]

I hate to say this, but after listening to Heather and hearing her say that she didn't feel she needed counseling like the rest of the family because she feels she can pray, I feel like she is seriously in denial. My heart goes out to this family, but in all honesty when it finally hits Heather its going to hit her hard I'm afraid.

Joran van der Sloot refused therapy and he murdered again. Amanda Knox refused therapy and she just published a book. Therapy isn't always the best choice ... but in some cases, it's necessary. Having a strong belief in God can quite possibly replace any need for traditional therapy.

 

[otto]

Actually the AAP American Academy of Pediatrics has started charting people of different heritage on different graphs. Asains grow differently from typical Americans as do people form Mexico and Alaska ... Just look at baby pics from different races... We all grow a little differently

http://www.chartsgraphsdiagrams.com/HealthCharts/growth-2-20-boys.html

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

That's exactly the sense I get from the first part of the interview ... that they are shunning him. Heather has it under control ... strong for her daughter and children. Drew seemed to glance to Heather for strength each time the reporter mentioned the "what happened". I think that it tears him apart and that he looks to Heather to give him strength to look past it and remember Elizabeth as a vibrant, lively, full of laughter, sneaking ice cream with mom, child. I think that the reporter should have lightened up on the "what if" angle ... it was below the belt.

Agreed. I thought it was awful when he asked Drew if he felt guilt. FGS why would he! I liked that Drew answered it with a strong voice, confident that the evil enemy did this.

I admire them so much. I am always amazed when parents of murdered children can use inner tools (faith in this case) to fight the monsters.

 

[otto]

Well, IMO, these are first off generalizations, stats gathered from other cases, and therefore not facts in this particular case.

As to the distance of 20+ miles where the bodies were, Iowa there is pretty rural and widespread, which is also much rarer than more urban settings that most of these cases are then drawn from. The location also indicated a familiarity to the perp, it seems, as there was little effort to completely conceal the bodies.

I will respectfully disagree on where the abduction took place that day, as there is no substantial proof that the two girls were ever even near Meyers Lake, where their bicycles and purse were found. As a location of opportunity, then, I would say where they were last positively seen, both by WC and a surveillance film, would fit much better, IMHO. This area also lends itself ideal for the all under "initial contact sight."

Again, however, the portions I clipped were merely what I found interesting in cases where children are murdered. This one, in its entirety:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/child-protection_b_1950749.html

Stats, in any case, are only references for the "norm".

I would say that the bodies were well concealed in a remote location since they could easily have been missed, even by hunters, if they had walked a couple of feet on either side of the remains.

Abben, lead investigator, has said that their last sighting was at about 12:30 near Gilbert and Elmer. This information was released in September, perhaps to flush out new leads. That places the chjildren at the entrance to the parking lot at Meyers Lake on July 13 at 12:30. I don't believe that this is a connection the media report of the lawn watering man (it rained that morning) at Lake and Gilbert between 12:30 and 3 PM.

 

[otto]

Thank you! I did not know that. It seemed there was a discussion yesterday(?) on the thread about this and I recalled folks were defending the Collins' decision not to include Lyric in any memorials. I assumed that was because of something quoted in a MSM article.

You rock!!!!

I've read so much about this in the last few days that I want to comment. I don't see a problem here. Elizabeth and Lyric were completely different children, and they well deserve to have separate funeral services. I would expect that they will be laid to rest beside each other.

Let's not overthink anything. It is the children's right to be remembered as they were in life, cousins that lived different lives; children that lived separate lives and rode bikes together because they were cousins.

 

[Snufamonbobball]

Just bringing Case Management for Missing Children Homicide Investigation up here- it's been posted many times before, but it gets buried in threads and it's always useful- far more thorough than most everything else on the web and it has lots of interesting and good statistics relevant to Elizabeth and Lyric.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

 

[Mjskit]

"They report studies which conclude in the majority of cases (72%), the radius from body recovery site to murder scene is less than 200 feet. The distribution was different when it came to journey from the initial contact setting to the murder site: 31% travelled 0-199 feet, whereas 43% trekked 1.5-12 miles."

In this case, we have approximately 20 miles. Did you happen to notice what percentage of perps leave the body up to 20 miles away?

That's interesting.

"... the killers are usually at the initial contact site for legitimate reasons. They either lived in the area or were engaging in some routine. The initial contact site is within 1/4 mile of the victim's last known location in 80% of cases."

In this case, it was 1 mile from where they were last seen on video ... roughly one mile from home (video) to Meyers Lake.

The fact that the abduction (bikes) and bodies were 1 to 20 miles away, rather than what is common in up to 75% of cases ... what does "much farther away than the norm" that tell us?

The perp read the statistics before hand and wanted to be outside the norm? So strange to use the word norm for this perp. ugh... IDK

 

[SouthernMom]

"They report studies which conclude in the majority of cases (72%), the radius from body recovery site to murder scene is less than 200 feet. The distribution was different when it came to journey from the initial contact setting to the murder site: 31% travelled 0-199 feet, whereas 43% trekked 1.5-12 miles."

In this case, we have approximately 20 miles. Did you happen to notice what percentage of perps leave the body up to 20 miles away?


The fact that the abduction (bikes) and bodies were 1 to 20 miles away, rather than what is common in up to 75% of cases ... what does "much farther away than the norm" that tell us?

My assumption is that the other 26 % [100-(31+24)] dispose of the bodies further than 12 miles away. My other thought is that due to the rural areas and farming communities, this case could fall into the 43% category because to me 8 more miles isn't that great of a distance. I think this was a very typical SO child murderer whose actions, if we ever find out the whole truth, will fall within the statistical evidence for the most part.

Some perps take their victims hundreds of miles away (ex. Joseph Duncan)

 

[TeenyTaurus]

A lot may also depend on whether we have a repeat offender here or not. This crime seems to have been pretty bold, not only abducting two young girls, but in broad daylight. It tends to at least seem this perp had things well planned, and not a first time attempt.

Then again, it was roughly around midday on a Friday, when most people would be indoors or at work, shortly after a morning rain spell, IIRC. By mid July, residents would also be more acclimatized to children out and about, with no school having been in session for at least a month or better.

In other words, there are always particulars in every case that make them unique and not subject to specific statistics. The latter are merely guidelines, which are actually presented more to assist LE first. In the case of child abductions/murders, it is very much a "work in progress."

 

[nikb]

Did you lose it completely when Drew was asked if he would ever go back into Lizzie's room? Because that just tore me apart.

Me too. I had to actually go re-listen/watch because I was crying so hard the first time I missed this part.

 

[georger]

I'm just now watching the interview with Heather and Drew. I can not believe the comments that some fools have written in the comments section!! What the hell is wrong with people??!! :furious:

I assume you are talking about today's interview posted at KWWL - just dont have the time to wade this forum through all the posts:
Here's the link.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20330710/...mera-for-first-time-since-discovery-of-bodies

The artice says clear as day (no further conjectures needed):

Quote: "Investigators have not told the parents how the girls died and the Collin's say they
don't want to know. They say they will forgive the killer.

Thanks.
G.

 

[NWLady]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for always being so kind to answer us newbies questions and/or help us to navigate around. :great:
I am, however, (once again, lol) a little confused about a couple of things...
regarding posts about negative comments about drew and heather's interview...when i click on comments under that video, i see only 3 comments and they are all positive comments??
And, I thought I would venture over to a social media site that was mentioned previously..(I don't want to say or do anything wrong so I am trying to be careful on how I word this as to make no accusations, speculation, etc) :waitasec: And the poor grammar and punctuation and spelling etc are no longer there AND I can't even find the "picture" anymore.

 

[not_my_kids]

I'm actually breaking down and watching the interview. I had just skipped through it earlier. Drew is looking to Heather himself, but he is pretty strong himself. To have gotten that call, with no indication of the news, and to function in that moment, that shows incredible strength.

Heather herself is almost too calm and composed. She is a woman of amazing strength and faith, but I don't know how much longer her composure will hold. It seems to be cracking at the edges, and I think it will come when the girls COD is released and details begin to leak out.

I think they are helping their other kids through it in the healthiest way they can, and in fact, much healthier than in some other families where a child has gone missing. I hope the other kids are able to get past it, but I have to say that if any family can grow up healthy in the shadow of something like this, this one can. I just hope they didn't push the kids too fast to go back to school, and carry on like normal in light of the body discovery.

It was nice to have confirmation from Heather that all the RSO's in the immediate area have been checked out thoroughly.

I can guarantee that the celebration of life for Elizabeth will be very closely watched by LE. And I hope that the person that they will be looking there does show up. And I hope that the pictures and videos and favorite toys will cause a guilt that eats a hole straight through them.

Does anyone notice near the end of the interview where Heather references "these three little girls" and then corrects herself to two little girls? Simple slip of the tongue or something else?

 

[LeeCR7]

I'm not a regular poster...found this site during the Casey Anthony trial and came back when I heard about this disapperance.

I just watched the video of the parents. Even though I am decidedly not religious, I so admire their faith. How wonderful that it is giving them strength through such a time.

After viewing the video, I am leaning more toward the sex offender theory. The mother was clearly adament about not knowing the details, but the father seemed less so. Because he was so sure it was a sex offender, and someone who had offended before, I wonder if that's what the police are thinking, and if they indicated that when talking to the parents (or maybe just the dad). It makes me think they found something at the scene to point that way.

It is so incredibly sad. Although I admire the parents for not wanting to know the details and staying out of the investigation, I have to say that I don't get it. I feel like I would be the exact opposite: I would need to know everything. But, of course, you never know how you are going to respond to such a horrendous tragedy.

 

[Whisperer]

LeeCR7, Welcome to our group!

:welcome:

 

[GrainneDhu]

You will have to go back to the first thread. A shoe was found on 7/17 during one of the searches that was going on during those first few days. There was a lot of confusion back then over the shoes that Lyric was wearing. The family first gave several different descriptions of the shoes that she may have had on the day that the girls were abducted. I really don't think we ever got an absolute definitive description of Lyric's shoes from the family. We do not know if the shoe that was found had any connection to the girls at all. It was never said by LE or by the media that it was connected to either of them. I tried to go back and pull something up for you but couldn't find anything that really explained it. You may want to search "shoe" in the first couple of threads and see what comes up.

In today's interview, Drew and Heather said that they were shown Elizabeth's high tops and Lyric's flip flops. Drew definitely said flip flops, plural.

So I think that early find of a flip flop was a red herring.

 

[Confusion]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for always being so kind to answer us newbies questions and/or help us to navigate around. :great:
I am, however, (once again, lol) a little confused about a couple of things...
regarding posts about negative comments about drew and heather's interview...when i click on comments under that video, i see only 3 comments and they are all positive comments??
And, I thought I would venture over to a social media site that was mentioned previously..(I don't want to say or do anything wrong so I am trying to be careful on how I word this as to make no accusations, speculation, etc) :waitasec: And the poor grammar and punctuation and spelling etc are no longer there AND I can't even find the "picture" anymore.

The other comments were probably removed by the admin there.

 

[mnegri1973]

So girls continuing growing well after puberty, but there is a small group of "early maturing girls" that do stop growing after puberty.

There have been several exceptions to the 6 cm (2.54 cm/in) posted here, so I'm inclined to think that the "early maturing girls", perhaps like those found in mountainous areas of Northern Guatemala; where the average height is 4"11", stop growing after puberty, but the long legged Eurpean descendants perhaps grow 5 inches after puberty.

Thanks for the links. There are separate British human factors scales because, as a general group, British people are shorter than US (European descendant) human factors scales. A bbc human body program may look at growth hormones in beef, or hobbit reasons to explain the separate British height scales ... but what I remember is that girls and boys continue growing until 20. I'll look for a reference tomorrw ... need to remember where I read it.

I don't have a link but I do know from my DD that she literally stopped growing height wise when she was in 8th grade however her skull will not be fully developed until her early 20's. We found this out when we were at the orthodontist this past summer. She has a very bad cross bite due to her lower jaw being larger then her upper jaw and the only way to correctly fix it is surgery, but they like to wait until the teen's skull is fully developed, hence the early 20 reference. That could be what some of those articles are talking about.

HTH

Mel ~


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[katydid23]

The girls were identified because their shoes were found with their bodies.

Were their clothes found with them too? Does anyone have confirmation?
:rose::rose:

 

[GrainneDhu]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for always being so kind to answer us newbies questions and/or help us to navigate around. :great:
I am, however, (once again, lol) a little confused about a couple of things...
regarding posts about negative comments about drew and heather's interview...when i click on comments under that video, i see only 3 comments and they are all positive comments??
And, I thought I would venture over to a social media site that was mentioned previously..(I don't want to say or do anything wrong so I am trying to be careful on how I word this as to make no accusations, speculation, etc) :waitasec: And the poor grammar and punctuation and spelling etc are no longer there AND I can't even find the "picture" anymore.

Sounds to me like moderators on more than one website had busy days today.