IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[FrayedKnot]

I was always considered to be the runt of the litter, but you guys just make me feel like a shrimp. I've been 5'4" since I was 15, but at 12 I was 4'10" and weighed 74#.

I think I was 74 lbs in utero! :lol:

But I'm just big boneded.

 

[gngr~snap]

Although I haven't found a link yet, I remember reading (years ago) that boys and girls grow into their very early 20s, although the growth amount in height is very small in the last few years. Growth charts I found earlier today went to the age of 20. Being 5'6" at age 13 (puberty) and 5'11" at age 18 contradicts the theory that girls stop growing when they reach puberty.

So, in context, Lyric, at 4'11" would not have stopped growing, especially with size nine women's feet.

Her feet were done growing...her spine was not but IMO she was moving into another phase her legs may have even been done growing.. her spine? maybe not~ that is where the last few inches come from
my own professional opinion....

"Early maturing girls also experienced their adolescent growth spurt sooner than did girls who had their first period at age 12 or older, the study’s lead author said. Karen Remsberg, PhD, an assistant professor at Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine, said these early growth changes would encourage premature skeletal maturation"

http://www.endo-society.org/media/ENDO-07/research/Early-onset-of-menstruation.cfm

"Estrogen exposure leads to growth plate closure, or the stage at which bones stop growing in length, as well as to mineral packing in bone. Studies have associated early menarcheal age with increased bone density. Some research has also associated early menarcheal age with shorter stature and greater percent body fat as an adult, while later menarcheal age is associated with taller stature and leaner body composition"

http://sdstate.edu/news/menarcheal-age.cfm

"Once the ovaries are mature, the legs have generally finished growing. Any increase in height after periods have begun, usually comes just from the torso. A general rule is that a girl will grow no more than 6cm after her first period."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/body/articles/lifecycle/teenagers/girl_s_growth.shtml

 

[FrayedKnot]

Her feet were done growing...her spine was not but IMO she was moving into another phase her legs may have even been done growing.. her spine? maybe not~ that is where the last few inches come from
my own professional opinion....

"Early maturing girls also experienced their adolescent growth spurt sooner than did girls who had their first period at age 12 or older, the study’s lead author said. Karen Remsberg, PhD, an assistant professor at Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine, said these early growth changes would encourage premature skeletal maturation"

http://www.endo-society.org/media/ENDO-07/research/Early-onset-of-menstruation.cfm

"Estrogen exposure leads to growth plate closure, or the stage at which bones stop growing in length, as well as to mineral packing in bone. Studies have associated early menarcheal age with increased bone density. Some research has also associated early menarcheal age with shorter stature and greater percent body fat as an adult, while later menarcheal age is associated with taller stature and leaner body composition"

http://sdstate.edu/news/menarcheal-age.cfm

"Once the ovaries are mature, the legs have generally finished growing. Any increase in height after periods have begun, usually comes just from the torso. A general rule is that a girl will grow no more than 6cm after her first period."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/body/articles/lifecycle/teenagers/girl_s_growth.shtml

Wow! I wonder if I some funky growth disorder? I was certainly several inches away from my full height when I entered puberty.

My dad had a weird thing where he grew a shocking 6 or 7 inches in a single year during early adolescence to reach his full height if 6'6". He had some pretty severe joint issues,though that required surgeries to his shoulders, hips and knees while a young adult.

I had no such problems. Still.......hmmmmmm

 

[katydid23]

There are several cases where a perp took control of a couple together even though he was only attracted to women. So he immobilises the man (often by shooting him) and assaults the woman before killing her. In such cases, where there is a potential victim the perp wants, anyone else present is superfluous.

It's also amazing how many times the perp attempts to kill the male half of the couple but fails out of sheer disinterest. In cases where a couple is taken and one person survives, it's almost always the man. The woman is usually a victim of overkill.

If this perp were only interested in Elizabeth or Lyric, he would just kill the one and assault the other before killing her.

And here's a possible theory for the placement of the bodies at 7 Bridges. The perp killed Elizabeth in his vehicle, then walked Lyric through the woods and to the clearing where he assaulted and then killed her. Afterwards, he went back to his vehicle and carried Elizabeth to the same clearing but was either unable to find Lyric's body or just didn't care.

Obviously this assumes that the killer wanted Lyric and to him, Elizabeth was just inconvenient.

I agree with your scenario. But it might have been the opposite. I can see a perp wanting Elizabeth, but thinking Lyric was too old for their pedo tastes.

 

[otto]

I think there's a high likelyhood there will be evidence on the girls, Morgan Harrington was in a field for 6 months and there was dna on or with her skeletal remains.
I think they haven't released the bodies so they can continue with more sophisticated forensic testing on the remains, I can think of no other reason for the bodies to remain with the ME.
I pray that the killer is not the great white shark of offenders, such as with April Marie Tinsley.

She went missing on October 27 and was found on January 26 ... 3 months.
y = 1285/x, where x is the average centigrade temperature since she was missing and y is the number of days until skeletonization or mummification. I did a rough estimate in my head and thought it might be about 1285/12. 150 days. She was found after about 100, so, according to her mother, they were beautiful bones. According to the ME, there was DNA.

In this case, July 13, where 30 celsius is 85 F, if the average temperature was 15, then after 85 days there there would be nothing left. Being in a damp place probably didn't help.

 

[gngr~snap]

Wow! I wonder if I some funky growth disorder? I was certainly several inches away from my full height when I entered puberty.

My dad had a weird thing where he grew a shocking 6 or 7 inches in a single year during early adolescence to reach his full height if 6'6". He had some pretty severe joint issues,though that required surgeries to his shoulders, hips and knees while a young adult.

I had no such problems. Still.......hmmmmmm

o/t if you weren't "regular" until a year or so later that makes a difference...

it's the level of estrogen...

not that any of this applies in this case... I am just trying to educate... sorry it's part of the job that I have yet to be able to stop! :blushing:

The growth charts can go to 40! Girls generally stop growing by their mid teens... UNLESS they have a pituitary tumor or something....

 

[TeenyTaurus]

This is just an interesting article regarding child killers.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/child-protection_b_1950749.html

Very interesting, indeed. It also fits with many other studies I've read about. Some key parts in it...

" When the child is between the ages of 5 and 12, the suspect is most often male, a close friend or a stranger, sexually compulsive, killing using means such as strangling."

"Analysis of 621 cases representing 44 states across the USA showed that in 44% of the cases the victim was deceased within one hour post abduction. Within three hours, 74% of victims were dead."

" They report studies which conclude in the majority of cases (72%), the radius from body recovery site to murder scene is less than 200 feet. The distribution was different when it came to journey from the initial contact setting to the murder site: 31% travelled 0-199 feet, whereas 43% trekked 1.5-12 miles."

"... the killers are usually at the initial contact site for legitimate reasons. They either lived in the area or were engaging in some routine. She also reports most child abduction murders are opportunistic. Only in 14 percent of cases was the victim picked out because of some physical characteristic. The initial contact site is within 1/4 mile of the victim's last known location in 80% of cases."

"In fact, US data suggests well over half of abductions that led to murder took place within three city blocks of the victim's home and approximately one-third within one-half block."

"Heide, Beauregard and Myers describe a personality profile of a typical extra-familial perpetrator - shy, anxious, reserved, feeling inferior; taking refuge in fantasy, where they become omnipotent and powerful. But the more they take flight into the imagination, the more real it becomes. This imaginary world gets so familiar, it's inevitably enacted.

As a result of this secret inner world, family, neighbours, and friends never guess who is capable of such a crime."

Hm...

 

[tlcya]

Teenytaurus posed an interesting question regarding establishing a sexual assault if the bodies had been there. Wouuld there be DNA?

I would thnk it would be harder to establish without DNA but nude bodies with tattered clothng nearby. Clothing in obvious disaray while still on the bodies, would help to build a more circumstatial cases.

Caution UNSETTLING CLINICAL IMAGERY AHEAD

I saw an episode of dateline or 48 hours where it was determined because the pants were still on the skeletal remains but pulled down around the ankles and undergarment was torn off.

That would seem unlikely to me. Not sure the assault would have happened there at 7 Bridges.

Really good question to ponder.

Thanks teeny.

 

[SoBeCzar]

To be very straight forward I have always thought peodphiles were mainly interested in lack of breast developement and lack of body hair, the visual signs of a child. Height not so much, especially when the child is still shorter than most adults.

 

[Snufamonbobball]

She went missing on October 27 and was found on January 26 ... 3 months.
y = 1285/x, where x is the average centigrade temperature since she was missing and y is the number of days until skeletonization or mummification. I did a rough estimate in my head and thought it might be about 1285/12. 150 days. She was found after about 100, so, according to her mother, they were beautiful bones. According to the ME, there was DNA.

In this case, July 13, where 30 celsius is 85 F, if the average temperature was 15, then after 85 days there there would be nothing left. Being in a damp place probably didn't help.

True about summer... Apparently now that it has gotten cold here, I forgot we had a long hot summer! Oh well, my son is always telling me how old I'm getting...

 

[MotherOcean]

Well, I just finished watching the interview with Drew and Heather. I really didn't want to watch it at first. I wasn't sure if I could handle it. But, I decided to try and I'm glad I did. It really was a well done interview. I thought the interviewer did a great job. He was very respectful and kept the conversation moving foward without bombarding them.

Notable that Drew expresses his love for Dan and also that he doesn't think Dan is responsible for what happened to the girls. He seems pretty convinced that the motive was sexual and that the perp. will be found.

 

[tlcya]

I'm a bit like you with the bones, but I might become more religious if it meant salvaging my sanity in a situation such as this.

By having absolutely no interest in who this guy is, or what he did to the children, he becomes a complete nobody ... just another damaged individual with evil in his mind; a deviant that hurts children ... the only focus being on finding him before he does it again. I admire them for their strength. Drew looked more well rested than he has in the last 5 months. I suppose knowing that it's over is a huge relief ... not knowing must have been torment. To lose a first born child must be extremely difficult ... like when she talked about eating huge bowls of ice cream together after the other children were asleep.

This is the only comment I will make and I do so having elected not to watch the video or read the statements made. For now. The only thing I know of this interiew comes from you good folks.

They are shunning this man. They have turned over him, his apprehension, all of it to their strong faith in God.

They refuse to allow Elizabeth to be dominated by the ugliness of this "who cares" in death.

I am a fan of shunning. It is hard but healthy IMO reaction to the circumstance.

ETA watching their grief or even read tbeir words feels intrusive to me right now. Totally llogical. The sleuth in me should be ready to jump in on that conversation. I just don't know that I can go to that intimate a place with them and remain objective. Cant explaiin why.

 

[carbuff]

Teenytaurus posed an interesting question regarding establishing a sexual assault if the bodies had been there. Wouuld there be DNA?

I would thnk it would be harder to establish without DNA but nude bodies with tattered clothng nearby. Clothing in obvious disaray while still on the bodies, would help to build a more circumstatial cases.

Caution UNSETTLING CLINICAL IMAGERY AHEAD

I saw an episode of dateline or 48 hours where it was determined because the pants were still on the skeletal remains but pulled down around the ankles and undergarment was torn off.

That would seem unlikely to me. Not sure the assault would have happened there at 7 Bridges.

Really good question to ponder.

Thanks teeny.

MORE UNSETTLING DETAILS:

If the pants or underwear are pulled back into place, sometimes that can preserve DNA for much longer periods -- years, even. There was a case here in Massachusetts this fall where clothing saved from an assault 23 years ago was re-analyzed using new techniques and the perp's DNA recovered from the panties.

 

[TeenyTaurus]

This is the only comment I will make and I do so having elected not to watch the video or read the statements made. For now. The only thing I know of this interiew comes from you good folks.

They are shunning this man. They have turned over him, his apprehension, all of it to their strong faith in God.

They refuse to allow Elizabeth to be dominated by the ugliness of this who cares in death.

I am a fan of shunning. It is hard but healthy IMO reaction to the circumstance.

I, too, am a fan of shunning. When they catch this freak of nature, maybe "it" should sit through its entire trial with a sack over its head. Try the crime, but shun the monster.

 

[TeenyTaurus]

MORE UNSETTLING DETAILS:

If the pants or underwear are pulled back into place, sometimes that can preserve DNA for much longer periods -- years, even. There was a case here in Massachusetts this fall where clothing saved from an assault 23 years ago was re-analyzed using new techniques and the perp's DNA recovered from the panties.

Ah, interesting again!

If there's anything to be said for immediate gut reactions at key points in time, I have a feeling "Run, piggy, run!" with a sneer won't help this perp when he's caught.
Oops... did I say "piggy"? Gawd, let's not go THERE again!

 

[Catchy kitty]

Off topic:
I just took a visit up to cedar valley mugshots and my head can't stop shaking!
I thought lafayette looked bad on fb but now I see its everywhere,
I came here in my safe place to say,
Why is everyone calling everyone names?
Can't we disagree with class?!
.... I could not ask them lest the death threats would follow,
It saddens me and gives me a headache to read...
Thanks for hearing my rant minus the craziness!
I've been here the whole time,
I love everyone of y'all that has continued to post here,
I am a silent stranger to you but I've been lurking and I appreciate having a place to come to that helps me not to have to wonder by myself.
My friends and family act like their not tired off hearing case details every single day for years, but I know they don't want to hear it and can't tell me to shut up bc of the sensitive subject matter. I'm think

 

[watcher9]

On Carbuff's map, shoes found at "J".
Can someone explain or point me onto the right thread to find the info about finding their shoes?
Somehow I have missed this.
Thanks for any help.

 

[tlcya]

MORE UNSETTLING DETAILS:

If the pants or underwear are pulled back into place, sometimes that can preserve DNA for much longer periods -- years, even. There was a case here in Massachusetts this fall where clothing saved from an assault 23 years ago was re-analyzed using new techniques and the perp's DNA recovered from the panties.

Knock me over with a feather!

It is truly amazing how far forensics and science have come.

That give me hope if sexual asault was a factor.

Thanks carbuff.

 

[TeenyTaurus]

Awe, Catchy Kitty!
::Hands Catchy a pillow, blankie, and some hot cocoa::

(FB is ebil)

 

[Snowbunny]

I hate to say this, but after listening to Heather and hearing her say that she didn't feel she needed counseling like the rest of the family because she feels she can pray, I feel like she is seriously in denial. My heart goes out to this family, but in all honesty when it finally hits Heather its going to hit her hard I'm afraid.