IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #24

[georger]

For the local people, since WC saw the girls across the street from the Collins' home, did LE ever put crime scene tape around Lederman's and Cornbelt Auctions parking lots on Brovan Ave. and did LE search inside Lederman's and Cornbelt Auctions, including all the out buildings on the Cornbelt Auctions' lot.

IMO

Exactly what I want to know. If two girls vanish, they have to vanish into
(or because of) something - rather quickly? If its in town then its them
and their bikes, potentially. Maybe somewhere where a door can be shut
behind them..

 

[Marilynilpa]

Is there even evidence there was a murder? Since no COD has been
issued.

“We haven't aimed in on any one specific person or gender or anything like that,” said Abben.

Abben said because of a lack of evidence, they can't even come up with a profile of the killer.

Read more: http://www.kcci.com/news/central-io...17814122/-/12p6p9g/-/index.html#ixzz2FrNMby97

IMO, the evidence of murder is the fact that LE is seeking the girls' killer(s).

Also, the fact that the we don't know COD is no indication that LE doesn't know COD. JMO

 

[GrainneDhu]

Is there even evidence there was a murder? Since no COD has been
issued.

There has been no cause of death released yet.

However, logic alone tells me that two young girls in normal health don't just disappear from one town and then their bodies appear 25 miles away without some type of criminal behaviour involved.

 

[otto]

Someone here suggested a traveling sales person, truck driver who has a
route into and out the area, but does not live locally. That kind of fact
could eliminate the whole population of Evansdale and render all but a few
searches/questioning there next to useless? Someone who lives out of
town, maybe even at some distance, but still knows the area due to
having delivered to the area over several years ... unless you hit on that
connection or specific person you could search locals for a long time without
turning anything up ... someone not suspected, maybe even without a record ...

There is a link to the person here somewhere, in something ...

I think that one of our local posters, perhaps Ollipop, said that he was not aware of Maiden Lane until this happened, but I think that Wylma did know about it. That suggests to me that some people that have lived in the area for a long time are familiar with the now overgrown road that leads to the drainage pipe area. 7 Bridges Park was once a popular spot with community organized recreational activites for children and adults. After the 270 street bridge collapsed, access was limited, and the park was more or less abandoned by the community.

That looks to me like two locations that were once popular, but are now abandoned ... yet both locations are associated with this abduction/murder. Wouldn't that point to someone local? Local could be Waterloo, Evansdale, Readlyn and surrounding rural areas.

 

[otto]

Add to that (above) the low probability of two-girls being abducted,
presumably together at the same time. Without being seen or heard?

Two girls being abducted has to be on the low side of abduction stats?
One person alone abducting two girls falls where, in the known stats.

All in a relatively short space of time - just gone without any trace or sighting except for the one camera.

It almost sounds as if they pulled into a building or something with their bikes, then if the garage door is lowered behind them, they are trapped.
The perp can deal with two of them one at a time. Apparently all behind
earshot of neighbors and the public.

On the streets on minute - vanished into think air the next. Bikes left the
lake (how does that fit in without anyone or a vehicle being seen?). Is
there a maintenance building at the lake?

just brainstorming this -

There is a small sewer building of some sort a short distance down Maiden Lane just off Arbutus. It is always locked and it is checked once a week. If a vehicle turned down that road, most people would probably ignore it because it happens regularly.

 

[otto]

Is there even evidence there was a murder? Since no COD has been
issued.

"Asked if the kidnapping investigation was now turning into a homicide investigation, [Capt. Rick Abben, chief deputy of the Black Hawk County Sheriff's Office] replied, "We are looking that way at this time."

Dec 6
http://abcnews.go.com/US/lyric-cook-elizabeth-collins-bodies-believed-missing-iowa/story?id=17897703

 

[otto]

Exactly what I want to know. If two girls vanish, they have to vanish into
(or because of) something - rather quickly? If its in town then its them
and their bikes, potentially. Maybe somewhere where a door can be shut
behind them..

Every time I try to figure out where this happened, I come back to the area around the Collin's home.

I've read varying times that the girls first went for a bike ride, so it was somewhere between 11:30 and 12. We know that the girls remained close to home unti 12:15, per the video camera. There are apparently two other sightings that may or may not be valid. One is on Brovan Blvd (in front of the house) at 12:23 and the other is at Gilbert and Elmer between 12:30 and 1 PM.

If the girls were riding bikes near the house for at least 15 minutes, doing exactly what they were allowed to do, why would they suddenly - shortly before they were expected to go home, decide to ride to Meyers Lake, park their bikes at a drainage gate, go through the gate, leave the purse on the ground, and disappear? That just doesn't add up for me. First, if they wanted to take off to the lake, why didn't they do it right away when they started their bike ride - why wait at least 15-23 minutes? Secondly, if they wanted to go to the lake, why were they riding towards River Forest Road when several other roads are safer and faster? Third, if they decided to take off on their bikes knowing that Wylma had to leave for an appointment soon, why would they park their bikes, go through the gate, put down the purse and do anything ... that is, a quick ride to the park and back is one thing, but the bikes/purse give the impression that they were dawdling, exploring, passing the time without concern for the consequences.

Because of the above points, I am inclined to think that they were taken at the corner of Brovan Blvd and River Forest Road and that someone carefully and deliberately staged the bikes and purse based on the assumption that the girls would not be missed for some time ... that when the bikes and purse were found, everyone would assume they were on an afternoon bike ride and happened to stop at that location to explore the area.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I think that one of our local posters, perhaps Ollipop, said that he was not aware of Maiden Lane until this happened, but I think that Wylma did know about it. That suggests to me that some people that have lived in the area for a long time are familiar with the now overgrown road that leads to the drainage pipe area. 7 Bridges Park was once a popular spot with community organized recreational activites for children and adults. After the 270 street bridge collapsed, access was limited, and the park was more or less abandoned by the community.

That looks to me like two locations that were once popular, but are now abandoned ... yet both locations are associated with this abduction/murder. Wouldn't that point to someone local? Local could be Waterloo, Evansdale, Readlyn and surrounding rural areas.

I think Ollipop said he wasn't aware that there was more to the "driveway" by the sewage lift station than what could be seen from the street. Until he walked to the back of what he had taken to be the driveway, he hadn't realised that a vehicle could be pulled down to the end and be completely out of sight of the street.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Every time I try to figure out where this happened, I come back to the area around the Collin's home.

I've read varying times that the girls first went for a bike ride, so it was somewhere between 11:30 and 12. We know that the girls remained close to home unti 12:15, per the video camera. There are apparently two other sightings that may or may not be valid. One is on Brovan Blvd (in front of the house) at 12:23 and the other is at Gilbert and Elmer between 12:30 and 1 PM.

If the girls were riding bikes near the house for at least 15 minutes, doing exactly what they were allowed to do, why would they suddenly - shortly before they were expected to go home, decide to ride to Meyers Lake, park their bikes at a drainage gate, go through the gate, leave the purse on the ground, and disappear? That just doesn't add up for me. First, if they wanted to take off to the lake, why didn't they do it right away when they started their bike ride - why wait at least 15-23 minutes? Secondly, if they wanted to go to the lake, why were they riding towards River Forest Road when several other roads are safer and faster? Third, if they decided to take off on their bikes knowing that Wylma had to leave for an appointment soon, why would they park their bikes, go through the gate, put down the purse and do anything ... that is, a quick ride to the park and back is one thing, but the bikes/purse give the impression that they were dawdling, exploring, passing the time without concern for the consequences.

Because of the above points, I am inclined to think that they were taken at the corner of Brovan Blvd and River Forest Road and that someone carefully and deliberately staged the bikes and purse based on the assumption that the girls would not be missed for some time ... that when the bikes and purse were found, everyone would assume they were on an afternoon bike ride and happened to stop at that location to explore the area.

I just read a study that may offer some insight, Otto.

It was a study done in 2000 about gun safety for children. The researchers took 8-12 year old boys, gave them a gun safety presentation and then put them in small groups in a room that had a gun hidden in a drawer. They were left alone for 15 minutes but unknown to the boys, they were being secretly monitored.

Two thirds of the groups found the gun. One half of those groups got the gun out of the drawer (which had been warned against in the gun safety presentation). Out of those that took the gun out of the drawer, one half pulled the trigger.

Those children had been given a gun safety presentation immediately prior to being left in the room, so it's not like it was an event from the distant past.

So why did so many of them actually touch the gun or pull the trigger? Because children are inherently curious and because their physical capabilities outstrip their ability to accurately judge risk or foretell consequences. All of the children who touched the gun said basically the same thing: "I was being really careful so no one would get hurt."

Much the same results happen when staged abduction attempts are done with children whose parents believe they really do understand "stranger danger."

So why might two girls leave the area around their house after about 45 minutes of riding around, rather than immediately? Makes sense to me because at first, riding around the house was interesting but after 45 minutes, that day's fun potential around the house had been explored and the girls were ready to do something else.

Why take off towards River Road? My guess is "because it was there."

Why leave when they knew Grandma Wylma needed to go? Either because they didn't have a grasp on how long it would take them or because they may have been angling to let Lyric stay longer.

Maybe they were dawdling around the park. Or maybe they were stopped and Elizabeth was forced to drop her purse, so that she couldn't use the cell phone in it.

 

[Squeeze]

Every time I try to figure out where this happened, I come back to the area around the Collin's home.

I've read varying times that the girls first went for a bike ride, so it was somewhere between 11:30 and 12. We know that the girls remained close to home unti 12:15, per the video camera. There are apparently two other sightings that may or may not be valid. One is on Brovan Blvd (in front of the house) at 12:23 and the other is at Gilbert and Elmer between 12:30 and 1 PM.

If the girls were riding bikes near the house for at least 15 minutes, doing exactly what they were allowed to do, why would they suddenly - shortly before they were expected to go home, decide to ride to Meyers Lake, park their bikes at a drainage gate, go through the gate, leave the purse on the ground, and disappear? That just doesn't add up for me. First, if they wanted to take off to the lake, why didn't they do it right away when they started their bike ride - why wait at least 15-23 minutes? Secondly, if they wanted to go to the lake, why were they riding towards River Forest Road when several other roads are safer and faster? Third, if they decided to take off on their bikes knowing that Wylma had to leave for an appointment soon, why would they park their bikes, go through the gate, put down the purse and do anything ... that is, a quick ride to the park and back is one thing, but the bikes/purse give the impression that they were dawdling, exploring, passing the time without concern for the consequences.

Because of the above points, I am inclined to think that they were taken at the corner of Brovan Blvd and River Forest Road and that someone carefully and deliberately staged the bikes and purse based on the assumption that the girls would not be missed for some time ... that when the bikes and purse were found, everyone would assume they were on an afternoon bike ride and happened to stop at that location to explore the area.

I agree with your thinking. However, Brovan and River Forest are pretty open, and River Forest is a fairly busy. I'm thinking that it had to be within a couple of blocks, maybe to the south. If they were headed west on brovan as the video suggests, they could have turned south on the sidewalk ( is there one?) and gone around the block. And the garage door..... could be ANY garage door. I still am leaning toward it being a neighbor, maybe the.relative of one of their friends.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Except in this case it is two independent children and two separate
families, with no evidence at least so far that one family suspects
a care-giver or parent or relative, in the other family ? I am assuming
that is the case here, so far ... ?

It is interesting to note that for once we have a direct comparison of LE behaviour within the same crime.

Two families, two missing girls...one set of parents treated incredibly aggressively, the other set with kid gloves.

:cow:

 

[SapphireSteel]

I just read a study that may offer some insight, Otto.

It was a study done in 2000 about gun safety for children. The researchers took 8-12 year old boys, gave them a gun safety presentation and then put them in small groups in a room that had a gun hidden in a drawer. They were left alone for 15 minutes but unknown to the boys, they were being secretly monitored.

Two thirds of the groups found the gun. One half of those groups got the gun out of the drawer (which had been warned against in the gun safety presentation). Out of those that took the gun out of the drawer, one half pulled the trigger.

Those children had been given a gun safety presentation immediately prior to being left in the room, so it's not like it was an event from the distant past.

So why did so many of them actually touch the gun or pull the trigger? Because children are inherently curious and because their physical capabilities outstrip their ability to accurately judge risk or foretell consequences. All of the children who touched the gun said basically the same thing: "I was being really careful so no one would get hurt."

Much the same results happen when staged abduction attempts are done with children whose parents believe they really do understand "stranger danger."

So why might two girls leave the area around their house after about 45 minutes of riding around, rather than immediately? Makes sense to me because at first, riding around the house was interesting but after 45 minutes, that day's fun potential around the house had been explored and the girls were ready to do something else.

Why take off towards River Road? My guess is "because it was there."

Why leave when they knew Grandma Wylma needed to go? Either because they didn't have a grasp on how long it would take them or because they may have been angling to let Lyric stay longer.

Maybe they were dawdling around the park. Or maybe they were stopped and Elizabeth was forced to drop her purse, so that she couldn't use the cell phone in it.

:goodpost:

As adults we find it hard to put ourselves in the minds of children.

I would have been one of those "but I was really careful!" kids, probably.

I have found the girls easy to identify with though, mainly because I spent so many hours on my bike.

I went everywhere on that thing, spent every day on it. I still remember learning how to ride and falling straight into a rose bush, which didn't deter me one bit.

I can easily put myself in the minds of the girls, at least in the biking around town aspect of things.

I believe they were on a mission.

It sounds like they sat around the house all morning, then as soon as it got close to gramma and Tammy needing to go out, all of a sudden they HAD to have a bike ride, right then?

No...they would've been on those bikes since 9am on a school holiday, in my opinion.

What were they doing before they left the house? No one has ever said. Did they have contact with someone who gave them instructions to get quickly to Meyers Lake, at x time for x reason?

I think they did.

:cow:

ETA: this would explain why both were taken, which has always been strange to me. Only one was instructed to go...the other went along unexpectedly to the perp so they had to compromise and take both girls instead of one, against plan. Thinking out loud...

 

[SapphireSteel]

Continuing to brainstorm...

What I saw on that cctv was blurry as hell but told me a couple of things -

One was lagging behind the other. Two cousins of vastly different sizes who frequently bike around together, would bike abreast. Lyric would bike at a slower speed so Lizzie could keep up with her.

Nice small town, spacious roads, plenty of room for them to ride together yapping all the way, if riding is the goal.

Lizzie could be chasing Lyric...or vice versa.

If one girl had a mission and the other wasn't invited...would she go along anyway and rush after her cousin?

I doubt it was a game of "who can get to the end of the street quickest" because clearly Lyric would always win...in my opinion they are unlikely to have had a competitive type relationship anyway, Lyric appeared to nuture Lizzie somewhat, at least in the photos I've seen of them together.

:cow:

 

[Marilynilpa]

Every time I try to figure out where this happened, I come back to the area around the Collin's home.

I've read varying times that the girls first went for a bike ride, so it was somewhere between 11:30 and 12. We know that the girls remained close to home unti 12:15, per the video camera. There are apparently two other sightings that may or may not be valid. One is on Brovan Blvd (in front of the house) at 12:23 and the other is at Gilbert and Elmer between 12:30 and 1 PM.

If the girls were riding bikes near the house for at least 15 minutes, doing exactly what they were allowed to do, why would they suddenly - shortly before they were expected to go home, decide to ride to Meyers Lake, park their bikes at a drainage gate, go through the gate, leave the purse on the ground, and disappear? That just doesn't add up for me. First, if they wanted to take off to the lake, why didn't they do it right away when they started their bike ride - why wait at least 15-23 minutes? Secondly, if they wanted to go to the lake, why were they riding towards River Forest Road when several other roads are safer and faster? Third, if they decided to take off on their bikes knowing that Wylma had to leave for an appointment soon, why would they park their bikes, go through the gate, put down the purse and do anything ... that is, a quick ride to the park and back is one thing, but the bikes/purse give the impression that they were dawdling, exploring, passing the time without concern for the consequences.

Because of the above points, I am inclined to think that they were taken at the corner of Brovan Blvd and River Forest Road and that someone carefully and deliberately staged the bikes and purse based on the assumption that the girls would not be missed for some time ... that when the bikes and purse were found, everyone would assume they were on an afternoon bike ride and happened to stop at that location to explore the area.

BBM

But were they carefully and deliberately staged? Why not keep Lizzie's bike and purse together, if your purpose was to make it appear she and Lyric were just exploring? Why put the bike on one side of the fence and the purse on the other side?

The purse being on the other side of the fence from Lizzie's bike is one reason I believe the bikes were not staged. JMO

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM

But were they carefully and deliberately staged? Why not keep Lizzie's bike and purse together, if your purpose was to make it appear she and Lyric were just exploring? Why put the bike on one side of the fence and the purse on the other side?

The purse being on the other side of the fence from Lizzie's bike is one reason I believe the bikes were not staged. JMO

Yes, the staging issue. Still haven't made up my mind on that one.

My gut tells me there was staging, my intellect tells me there wasn't.

Either way, it doesn't really affect my opinion about what happened, just the detail of how it happened.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Continuing to brainstorm...

What I saw on that cctv was blurry as hell but told me a couple of things -

One was lagging behind the other. Two cousins of vastly different sizes who frequently bike around together, would bike abreast. Lyric would bike at a slower speed so Lizzie could keep up with her.

Nice small town, spacious roads, plenty of room for them to ride together yapping all the way, if riding is the goal.

Lizzie could be chasing Lyric...or vice versa.

If one girl had a mission and the other wasn't invited...would she go along anyway and rush after her cousin?

I doubt it was a game of "who can get to the end of the street quickest" because clearly Lyric would always win...in my opinion they are unlikely to have had a competitive type relationship anyway, Lyric appeared to nuture Lizzie somewhat, at least in the photos I've seen of them together.

:cow:

BBM

Heather and Drew talked about how Lizzie and Lyric would fuss and fight with each other all day long, but when it was time for Lyric to go home, the girls wanted Lyric to sleep over. They appeared to have a sisterly relationship which, IMO, would include competitive behavior (I can ride faster than you, no you can't, yes I can, well then prove it).

I'm not saying this is what happened, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out based on what Drew and Heather have said of the girls' relationship.

I don't have the link at hand, but I posted it earlier - it was the Ron Steele interview.

 

[SapphireSteel]

This -

“They have talked that they are looking for some people, but they can't give us the exact, because they don't want to leak anything out. But there are people that they are looking at,” said Collins.

Blackhawk County Chief Deputy Rick Abben, who's been fielding questions on the case, revealed little during a phone interview Monday afternoon.

“We haven't aimed in on any one specific person or gender or anything like that,” said Abben.

Heather confirms there are suspects.

Abben seems to confirm that the perps may be female...or at least, are not definitely male.

Does this support my theory of no sexual assault?

:what:

ETA: does this also confirm no DNA was found?


Read more: http://www.kcci.com/news/central-io...17814122/-/12p6p9g/-/index.html#ixzz2Ftpc0Yu7

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM

Heather and Drew talked about how Lizzie and Lyric would fuss and fight with each other all day long, but when it was time for Lyric to go home, the girls wanted Lyric to sleep over. They appeared to have a sisterly relationship which, IMO, would include competitive behavior (I can ride faster than you, no you can't, yes I can, well then prove it).

I'm not saying this is what happened, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out based on what Drew and Heather have said of the girls' relationship.

I don't have the link at hand, but I posted it earlier - it was the Ron Steele interview.

If they did, I think we would've seen them on cctv having another race right back again (you cheated! Do it again! etc).

They appeared to be going one way, in some sort of a hurry.

Like I said, I was a bike kid. I would've had 20 races by 12 pm. I don't think they were playing, is what I mean. They were headed somewhere definite, and apparently, briskly.

:cow:

 

[24Roses]

There has been alot of talk about the person being an RSO. In Evelyn Miller's case, Casey Fredrickson had *advertiser censored* & was abusing Evelyn since she was a baby. He was never caught until after Evelyn was murdered by him. The person who killed Lyric & Elizabeth could of been addicted to *advertiser censored* for years & was acting upon his urges. It could still be someone who is familiar to one or both girls through their extra curricular activities, church, or school. IIRC, Heather would take the kids to have lunch with Drew sometimes while he was working. One of Drew's clients could of became interested in Elizabeth after seeing her. It probably would be easy for them to learn more about the family because of Drew's work.

 

[SoBeCzar]

I think it's possible the bikes were dumped by the killer just to get rid of them. I certainly don't go for staging as a deliberate act to throw off LE.