IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #24

[georger]

BBM

The post I was responding to (which was quoted in full in my response) posed the scenario that the girls were abducted elsewhere in Evansdale and then moved to the location or locations near Meyer's Lake where they were seen by the witness(es) who saw them between 12:30 and 1:00.

Had the two girls already been abducted before they got close to Meyer's Lake, I doubt they would have been seen without the person who abducted them.

Since there is no evidence of that, I don't think that was what happened.

As for the portion I bolded, that was the sort of place that I was drawn to at that age... along with every other kid in the neighbourhood. We'd get each other all freaked out over the tales we would tell about a little patch of woods and another place that had a long deserted house.

And when we were all freaked out, we would dare each other to go ride by the "haunted" house or the "boogie man forest" (which, as an adult, I realise was a neglected orchard on less than 2 acres). Or ride up to the house and touch the door. And all sorts of other silly kid stuff that was made way more fun because we were both scared and full of bravado.

Yes, sir, I am here to tell you that I am probably the toughest person on the internet today because when I was 11 years old, I sat on the front porch of the haunted house for 30 minutes with a flashlight while I pretended I was reading a book.

It was only afterwards, due to the taunts of my playmates that I realised that if you're pretending to read, you should flip a page occasionally. But as I pointed out on that fateful evening, it didn't matter what I was doing, I sat on the porch of the haunted house for 30 minutes.

So I read the description and looked at Ollipop's photos of that place along Meyer's Lake and wondered why it wasn't bustling with scared little kids speeding through there from morning until after dark to prove that they aren't too scared to do so.

We did the exactly same thing as kids - lots of abandoned or rundown
properties with single old people living in them with no electricity or
running water - where the witches lived! If they came out you ran like Hell!
Next to one such place I was picking raspberries one evening and 'the
witch' came out, so I dropped down, fast. The witch began singing! It
was lovely! ... until she sang, "and will the littleboy who is picking my
raspberries give me some?" ... and I got up and ran like hell .... my chums
would not believe I got that close to her! Some years older the woman
and I would wave at each other as I pssed on my bike. Her name was
Magaret. My grandmother explained the woman had lost her husband in
World War I, whatever that was. A war of some kind I guessed ...

 

[balaney]

If this was just a coincidence possibly the girls stumbled into an act they were not supposed to witness. Possibly a drug transaction if they knew the people they could identify them or caught some one or two people in a sexual act. They had to keep the girls from talking. If this was planned and specifically the girls there would be a computer trail or someone would know. If the girls asked for directions they were headed there for a reason probably to meet someone who was prepared. The perp may have been expecting lyric only as Elizabeth was at the house visiting. Lyric could have been the target. Again, there would be some trail either computer or phone related for contact purposes. Possibly the perp planned to meet someone else there (related to the girls) and the girls were spying and got caught. Phone records on all family members should be checked.

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

SBM

I don't think they did go through that gate, at least not voluntarily.

I don't think anyone will ever know for sure why they left the area around the Collins house to go down to Meyer's Lake. My top guesses are boredom or mischief. Probably coupled with a childish lack of an accurate sense of how much time such a venture would take.

My personal theory of the crime is that the two girls were riding the loop around Meyer's Lake when one or both of them were accosted in that closed in area between the two fences. The perp got physical control over one girl, probably by the simple act of grabbing her by the arm, shirt or hair and giving a sharp yank sideways. My guess is that it was probably Lyric because it makes more sense to control the larger of two victims.

I think the perp either forced Elizabeth to toss her purse over the fence or got it from her and tossed it over the fence himself (I believe that the fence between the trail and lake is only 8 feet tall).

Then he forced them down the trail, into the woods and into his vehicle which was parked on Maiden Lane.
He had already picked out 7 Bridges as his secondary scene. I think he was a local who knew
I believe he knew that 7 Bridges was not likely to have any human visitors during a Friday afternoon with the river so low. No inner tubers, no one canoeing or fishing.

I so agree with what you're saying. I've been mulling over something similar while remembering things I did when I was that age during summer vacation.

Summer always seemed "different" to me...it made me want to go "by the lake" or just go somewhere I kinda KNEW I wasn't supposed to be.
I keep going back to Lyric going to the lake before. We don't know how many other times she went there. That's where I think she either "met" someone, or KNEW they'd be hanging around there at any given time....just IMO.

I'm thinking it may be someone younger who did this. Or like a couple of buddies who hung out down there....or even in the parking lot. OR, maybe older guys who hung out in the parking lot drinking a beer or whatever.
Spending "lunchtime" there...then maybe after work. IIRC, Lyric was late coming home the one time and she had been by the lake.

When I was younger, a bunch of "older" guys, maybe 16/17/18 would hang out at the gas station in the summer. I'd go there on my bike with my friend and they'd actually "talk" to us. It was like WOW!!! The "older" guys are paying attention to us!! The drinking age back then was 18, so a friend would get some beers and smoke cigs. I remember "I" even had a puff or two...LOL
I know I had a "crush" on one of them.

I don't know, it's just a theory I've been going over from the get go.

But the whole thing about the perp throwing the purse over the fence, and the choice of the location of the remains....ITA, as well.

 

[threecrazykids]

If this was just a coincidence possibly the girls stumbled into an act they were not supposed to witness. Possibly a drug transaction if they knew the people they could identify them or caught some one or two people in a sexual act. They had to keep the girls from talking. If this was planned and specifically the girls there would be a computer trail or someone would know. If the girls asked for directions they were headed there for a reason probably to meet someone who was prepared. The perp may have been expecting lyric only as Elizabeth was at the house visiting. Lyric could have been the target. Again, there would be some trail either computer or phone related for contact purposes. Possibly the perp planned to meet someone else there (related to the girls) and the girls were spying and got caught. Phone records on all family members should be checked.

Elizabeth wasn't at the house visiting...it was HER house Lyric and Wylma were "visiting" during the day. Elizabeth lived in Evansdale...not Lyric. If anyone was intending to meet Lyric there I feel certain that they would have had a good idea that Lizzy was going to be tagging along (as I would assume Lyric would say "I will be at my cousins house so she may be with me".) If this perp had planned this (and Lyric WAS the target) then I think the person would have told her to make sure Lizzy did NOT come along. Maybe that is why the girls were racing so fast on their bikes...maybe Lyric dashed out the door and Lizzie chased after her...but then again I think anything of the sort would be something Grandma Wylma would have known. I think (if she was in the room) would have seen how Lyric took off and it then appeared Lizzie chased after her. That would have been something I would think Grandma would have noted - such as- "Lyric took off in a hurry saying Lizzie couldn't come along and she ran off, Lizzie took off on her bike trying to catch her" or something along those lines.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Yes it was a massive coincidence that the girls went (apparently) where they weren't supposed to be, at a time they weren't supposed to be there, and just happened to walk into Mr. Rockspider waiting in his web in the middle of the day, in the middle of town.

So much of a coincidence, in fact, that I have never believed it and still don't.

The hallmark of this crime is planning.

I believe the girls were sent straight into a trap.

 

[otto]

BBM

The post I was responding to (which was quoted in full in my response) posed the scenario that the girls were abducted elsewhere in Evansdale and then moved to the location or locations near Meyer's Lake where they were seen by the witness(es) who saw them between 12:30 and 1:00.

Had the two girls already been abducted before they got close to Meyer's Lake, I doubt they would have been seen without the person who abducted them.

Since there is no evidence of that, I don't think that was what happened.

As for the portion I bolded, that was the sort of place that I was drawn to at that age... along with every other kid in the neighbourhood. We'd get each other all freaked out over the tales we would tell about a little patch of woods and another place that had a long deserted house.

And when we were all freaked out, we would dare each other to go ride by the "haunted" house or the "boogie man forest" (which, as an adult, I realise was a neglected orchard on less than 2 acres). Or ride up to the house and touch the door. And all sorts of other silly kid stuff that was made way more fun because we were both scared and full of bravado.

Yes, sir, I am here to tell you that I am probably the toughest person on the internet today because when I was 11 years old, I sat on the front porch of the haunted house for 30 minutes with a flashlight while I pretended I was reading a book.

It was only afterwards, due to the taunts of my playmates that I realised that if you're pretending to read, you should flip a page occasionally. But as I pointed out on that fateful evening, it didn't matter what I was doing, I sat on the porch of the haunted house for 30 minutes.

So I read the description and looked at Ollipop's photos of that place along Meyer's Lake and wondered why it wasn't bustling with scared little kids speeding through there from morning until after dark to prove that they aren't too scared to do so.

I think it is possible that the girls were abducted somewhere between Brovan and Meyers Lake. If that happened, I don't think that the "information" of a sighting at Gilbert/Elmer/Arbutus between 12:30 and 1:00 relates to the girls.

I think that it might be a bit of a mistake to project our own experiences onto the children. Some of us had no responsibility prior to the age of 8, others of us did. Some children are rebellious and defiant of parents at the age of 8, others not. Some children are drawn to the "scary", others not. Elizabeth is described as a devoutly religious child that loved makeup, nail polish and everything pink. By all accounts, she had a close relationship with her parents. This doesn't sound like the type of child that wanted to dawdle and "tomboy" at the scary, leech infested lake behind a 10 foot fence along a secluded trail that is rarely used ... especially given that, at the same time that this happened, she was expected to be at home.

 

[otto]

SBM

I don't think they did go through that gate, at least not voluntarily.

I don't think anyone will ever know for sure why they left the area around the Collins house to go down to Meyer's Lake. My top guesses are boredom or mischief. Probably coupled with a childish lack of an accurate sense of how much time such a venture would take.

My personal theory of the crime is that the two girls were riding the loop around Meyer's Lake when one or both of them were accosted in that closed in area between the two fences. The perp got physical control over one girl, probably by the simple act of grabbing her by the arm, shirt or hair and giving a sharp yank sideways. My guess is that it was probably Lyric because it makes more sense to control the larger of two victims.

I think the perp either forced Elizabeth to toss her purse over the fence or got it from her and tossed it over the fence himself (I believe that the fence between the trail and lake is only 8 feet tall).

Then he forced them down the trail, into the woods and into his vehicle which was parked on Maiden Lane.

I believe he had already picked out 7 Bridges as his secondary scene. I think he was a local who knew that 7 Bridges was not likely to have any human visitors during a Friday afternoon with the river so low. No inner tubers, no one canoeing or fishing.

If the children were grabbed next to the gate at the drainage pipe, they had to walk 400 feet, between the fences, down the trail to where the fence ends before they could be taken to a vehicle at Maiden Lane, and even farther if they were taken to a vehicle at any other location. That leaves an awful lot of time to bump into someone, like the cyclist that came forward to report two bikes on the trail. That seems awfully risky to me. It would be far less risky to walk along the lake side of the fence ... but why would a perp be lurking at that location waiting to abduct someone when the trail is rarely used?

 

[24Roses]

IIRC, I think TB said that the girls had been to the lake before, but I wonder how often? I was in Evansdale not to long ago towards evening. I think I saw the bike trail, but would have no idea that it could take me to Meyers Lake unless I knew the location. I thought of a new scenario: the girls were racing each other when they were seen on the camera & being watched. Somehow they ended up on the bike trail & at the main entrance to Meyers Lake. I do think they would still have to cross a busy street though to get to the trail. Back to my orginal thought: what if when they got to Meyers Lake, they were either lost or didn't want to take the same route back. The perp came along & told them that they could go around to the back of the trail & cut off in the grass to get back to another road leading home. Of course this would lead them right to Maiden Lane & the perp was now waiting for them.

 

[hollyblue]

it was an incredible coincidence that a bad guy just happened to be there when two children just happened to break all the rules and dawdle where they weren't supposed to be.

I dont see it as a coincidence at all that a bad guy would pick that place!
In fact, just the opposite. I think a bad guy wuld be attracted to that place
for the very reason of concealment and privacy, especialy if he has a history
and is looking for privacy.
.
There are homeless people and 'bad guys' in every ditch, culvert , creek,
patch of weeds and trees, under every bridge, et cetera you can find,
in my town! Every day sometimes multiple times a day police get dispatched
to these areas over some problem. Its where bums live in the summer! That
park would be perfect for some transient or someone seeking privacy to hold
out in and rest, think, and plan in ... privacy. If nobody is around its the perfect
place for an abduction or robbery!

He can be out of there and gone with the girls in a split minute! No place else
offers a similar advantage, without extra facts and even more 'coincidences'
of non-sighting...

[/QUOTE]Above quotes are messed up^^^^.

Anyway:

How likely is it that a homeless man has a vehicle for the abduction, tho? Ollipop stated the park was not usually busy...but rather few people were on the trails at that time of day. HOWEVER, it was lunchtime...and I have always thought that may be important. Also, the likelihood of someone waiting for the opportune moment of abducting a child while waiting on/in Maiden Lane is minimal, imo, if true because of the sparse traffic. If they were taken from Maiden Lane, then it was preplanned to meet the girls there. I too believe the time for Lyric and Gma to be back in Waterloo could have been "stretched". IOW....Lyric would know they had time to be at the lake and lollygag for almost another hour or atleast for 15 minutes to possibly meeting someone there, etc. Just want to point out too in thought....if Lyric was targeted, then "they" had to know she went to E'dale every morning with Gma and would be at the Collin's house; whether if the perp is from E'dale, Waterloo or wherever. JMO

I don't have the article, but just wanted to update.......Heather went to the police station at 2:47 PM. LE arrived at lake around 3PM and the bikes were found around 4. We never rec'd the specifics, but I'm guessing Heather knew Misty and mom were at Meyer's Lake...and that is the reason LE showed up there. ??

Just some sporatic thoughts. Too early....still intaking coffee.

 

[otto]

IIRC, I think TB said that the girls had been to the lake before, but I wonder how often? I was in Evansdale not to long ago towards evening. I think I saw the bike trail, but would have no idea that it could take me to Meyers Lake unless I knew the location. I thought of a new scenario: the girls were racing each other when they were seen on the camera & being watched. Somehow they ended up on the bike trail & at the main entrance to Meyers Lake. I do think they would still have to cross a busy street though to get to the trail. Back to my orginal thought: what if when they got to Meyers Lake, they were either lost or didn't want to take the same route back. The perp came along & told them that they could go around to the back of the trail & cut off in the grass to get back to another road leading home. Of course this would lead them right to Maiden Lane & the perp was now waiting for them.

The red line in this map shows the Evansdale Nature Trail. The girls were last seen heading west (left direction) from 166 Brovan. I don't think that they could have ended up on the SE tip of Meyers Lake by chance.

 

[chelsea6]

Another scenerio. :waitasec:

Imagine the girls were riding bikes behind the car wash. They see a man that had just washed his vehicle and was wiping it down. Maybe they know him, maybe not. He asks them to help finish wiping off the water. Then he makes them get inside his vehicle, talks dirty to them, maybe molests them, then drives off with them and their bikes inside.
While in his vehicle they beg for the perp to drop them and their bikes off at Meyers lake, saying "Nobody will see you because we were just there and it's completely empty. We promise not to say anything, just please let us go!" He does, but after unloading the bikes he changes his mind knowing they would tell, gets himself in a rage knowing they tried to trick him. He then violently throws them in his vehicle, and takes off for 7 bridges park to finish them off.

 

[JaimeInLA]

I know we have looked and looked, but did we ever find answers to these questions:

1) Why did Aunt Tammy teach the girls about stranger danger just days before their disappearance?

2) Where was Aunt Tammy the morning of the 13th, before she showed up to help look for the girls?

3) Is Aunt Tammy the ONLY person who ever said the girls had been to the lake before to visit Elizabeth's friends? Did Drew and Heather ever confirm?

4) Is Aunt Tammy the ONLY family member to state the dogs put the girls at the lake? (I know Breault mentioned it later)

5) When did Aunt Tammy give Lyric her bike?

6) Where was Aunt Tammy when Lyric and Tammy's 11-year old daughter were missing/late on July 9?

I'm not sleuthing Aunt Tammy -- just trying to figure out the timeline and the whereabouts of all the key players. I don't suspect her of any wrongdoing -- but I think maybe she might know who did this, even if she doesn't realize it. Thanks!

 

[Sere-nity]

I know we have looked and looked, but did we ever find answers to these questions:

1) Why did Aunt Tammy teach the girls about stranger danger just days before their disappearance?

2) Where was Aunt Tammy the morning of the 13th, before she showed up to help look for the girls?

3) Is Aunt Tammy the ONLY person who ever said the girls had been to the lake before to visit Elizabeth's friends? Did Drew and Heather ever confirm?

4) Is Aunt Tammy the ONLY family member to state the dogs put the girls at the lake? (I know Breault mentioned it later)

5) When did Aunt Tammy give Lyric her bike?

6) Where was Aunt Tammy when Lyric and Tammy's 11-year old daughter were missing/late on July 9?

I'm not sleuthing Aunt Tammy -- just trying to figure out the timeline and the whereabouts of all the key players. I don't suspect her of any wrongdoing -- but I think maybe she might know who did this, even if she doesn't realize it. Thanks!

I don't have any of these answers either.

 

[kikid]

It has been my feeling since the beginning of this case that the girls went missing near the home on Brovan. Probably very soon after the video was captured. I feel that they willingly went into either a home nearby or a business. This was probably a stop they made often when out riding their bikes. Stopping to say hi to a friend, friends parent or someone they felt somewhat comfortable with. I believe it was someone who had been planning for this when the opportunity was "Right" as in no witnesses. I believe that they were invited into either a home (I have a card for you mother - or some other nice ruse) to get them inside for "Just a minute". Then he quickly subdued them. After they were bound and hidden, he quickly ran the bikes to the lake before returning to the home/building and putting them in the trunk and heading to another location.

That is my theory. It was someone familiar to them and their family. Someone they felt comfortable going into either a house or back room of a business. Someone who on that day would not be missed from home or work. Someone with a vehicle which would allow the bikes to be taken to the lake and the girls to be taken from the premises.

That is my working theory, feel free to add to it or pick it apart.

 

[threecrazykids]

So just curious, did LE ever do a general "swoop" of houses right after their abduction? And by swoop I mean volunteer searches INSIDE homes in the area? I know they did the additional searches not too long ago which one can only hope they had something to go on...but did actual INTERNAL searches of homes ever get done right after they went missing?

I'm not talking about going door to door asking if they had seen anything...I'm talking about going INSIDE the house, to the basements, garages, etc. I don't think I remember hearing that was ever done. Who knows, maybe this person being gone for hours wouldn't have thrown up a red flag or maybe the perp/perps didn't take too long to accomplish their goal.

I would think that by LE even asking to come INTO someone's home and start asking questions and searching around would possibly cause someone to get a little edgy especially within those first hours/days.

Anyone who refused or were very edgy could potentially need to be looked at for potential motives or opportunities.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Elizabeth wasn't at the house visiting...it was HER house Lyric and Wylma were "visiting" during the day. Elizabeth lived in Evansdale...not Lyric. If anyone was intending to meet Lyric there I feel certain that they would have had a good idea that Lizzy was going to be tagging along (as I would assume Lyric would say "I will be at my cousins house so she may be with me".) If this perp had planned this (and Lyric WAS the target) then I think the person would have told her to make sure Lizzy did NOT come along. Maybe that is why the girls were racing so fast on their bikes...maybe Lyric dashed out the door and Lizzie chased after her...but then again I think anything of the sort would be something Grandma Wylma would have known. I think (if she was in the room) would have seen how Lyric took off and it then appeared Lizzie chased after her. That would have been something I would think Grandma would have noted - such as- "Lyric took off in a hurry saying Lizzie couldn't come along and she ran off, Lizzie took off on her bike trying to catch her" or something along those lines.

The problem with that is that in the videotape, the first bicyclist appears to be significantly smaller than the one following; so it looks like Lyric was chasing Elizabeth.

I've often wondered if they were racing and had agreed that Elizabeth would get a half block lead or something like that to make it a fair race.

 

[GrainneDhu]

So just curious, did LE ever do a general "swoop" of houses right after their abduction? And by swoop I mean volunteer searches INSIDE homes in the area? I know they did the additional searches not too long ago which one can only hope they had something to go on...but did actual INTERNAL searches of homes ever get done right after they went missing?

I'm not talking about going door to door asking if they had seen anything...I'm talking about going INSIDE the house, to the basements, garages, etc. I don't think I remember hearing that was ever done. Who knows, maybe this person being gone for hours wouldn't have thrown up a red flag or maybe the perp/perps didn't take too long to accomplish their goal.

I would think that by LE even asking to come INTO someone's home and start asking questions and searching around would possibly cause someone to get a little edgy especially within those first hours/days.

Anyone who refused or were very edgy could potentially need to be looked at for potential motives or opportunities.

Yes, in the first weekend during the mass searches, LE also did consent searches of houses near the lake.

 

[SapphireSteel]

They also had sniffer dogs all over town.

There were very thorough searches.

 

[threecrazykids]

Yes, in the first weekend during the mass searches, LE also did consent searches of houses near the lake.

Ok...did they do searches of homes near the Collins' home? If the lake involvement WAS staged, then it served it's purpose I'm afraid. I'm just wondering (after further discussion) that the girls were possibly taken closer to home and the bikes possibly taken there after the fact.

If this person did know about Maiden Lane then they would probably have enough time between passer-by's to take a couple bikes and put them there without anyone seeing them.

If that is the case though I'm going to guess LE didn't pull any prints of a prior convict since there would have been a match and an arrest made by now.

My fear is that if LE did pull any prints off the bikes, purse, etc. it's not of someone that would have been "out of place" to have their hands on the bike. Maybe the prints belong to people who would have had reason to touch the bikes and wouldn't throw up a red flag.

I'm hoping LE didn't just search homes close to the lake, but also closer to the Collins' home...and also homes in the areas of the girls sightings. No one seemed to have seen them at the lake regardless of the bike's existence there so searching around the lake could just be giving the perp MORE time.:banghead:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Ok...did they do searches of homes near the Collins' home? If the lake involvement WAS staged, then it served it's purpose I'm afraid. I'm just wondering (after further discussion) that the girls were possibly taken closer to home and the bikes possibly taken there after the fact.

If this person did know about Maiden Lane then they would probably have enough time between passer-by's to take a couple bikes and put them there without anyone seeing them.

If that is the case though I'm going to guess LE didn't pull any prints of a prior convict since there would have been a match and an arrest made by now.

My fear is that if LE did pull any prints off the bikes, purse, etc. it's not of someone that would have been "out of place" to have their hands on the bike. Maybe the prints belong to people who would have had reason to touch the bikes and wouldn't throw up a red flag.

I'm hoping LE didn't just search homes close to the lake, but also closer to the Collins' home...and also homes in the areas of the girls sightings. No one seemed to have seen them at the lake regardless of the bike's existence there so searching around the lake could just be giving the perp MORE time.:banghead:

What if they did get prints?

What if the prints are from someone in the close circle of family/friends, who would have an excuse to have their prints there? eg. I pumped the tires or set the bikes up properly when they were dumped in the yard once.