IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #26

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Maybe we could discuss commonalities of Lizzy and Lyric. So many theories stated about one girl or the other that the perp wanted. What if they/he wanted both and planned for both girls. What would be the reason? Any ideas?

The latest idea I've been tumbling around in my mind is that the salient characteristics of the two girls were that they were available and easily controlled. Available in that wherever they were when they were abducted was somewhere no one else was looking at that instant in time.

I'm wondering if the perp is someone who feels he cannot control a normal adult woman, so he picks young girls. If that is so, I wonder if he practised first on frail elderly women. I don't recall any murders in Iowa that fit that description but there have been a few assaults and rapes.

And I have also come to think that it's possible the perp has a partner. Maybe the salient characteristics of the girls included that there were two of them.
 
http://www.kcci.com/news/central-io...ors/-/9357080/18107780/-/vklortz/-/index.html

Here is the link: Nice find, it may have nothing to do with our girls..But wouldn't it be a kick, if just maybe it does..

From the link above:

"Doesn't seem like it would make or break a case," Rooker said. "It could be just one piece of many pieces of evidence against a suspect. I believe that all it would really do is eliminate someone or positively identify them."


BBM

ALL it would really do?? Isn't that kind of important, being able to eliminate or positively identify someone??:waitasec:

I think it would make or break a case if fingerprints could positively identify someone as a suspect.

This probably doesn't involve Lyric and Lizzie's case, but who knows.
 
I think it is only one man that did this horrible crime. Lyric and Elizabeth were always together, family said they rode their bikes together a lot. I think it would of been easier for this perp to of abducted just one girl. But there were two, take one and you have a witness. I also think the girls were primed by this lunatic. Maybe for months, maybe for days. No screams were heard, no one saw anything out of the ordinary. They didn't just vanish out of thin air that day. They went on their own accord. JMO
 
The latest idea I've been tumbling around in my mind is that the salient characteristics of the two girls were that they were available and easily controlled. Available in that wherever they were when they were abducted was somewhere no one else was looking at that instant in time.

I'm wondering if the perp is someone who feels he cannot control a normal adult woman, so he picks young girls. If that is so, I wonder if he practised first on frail elderly women. I don't recall any murders in Iowa that fit that description but there have been a few assaults and rapes.

And I have also come to think that it's possible the perp has a partner. Maybe the salient characteristics of the girls included that there were two of them.

BBM

Someone like Austin Siggs, Jessica Ridgeway's killer. A couple of months before he abducted and killed Jessica, he grabbed a 22 year old woman on a hiking trail, but she was able to get away. I feel he went after a young girl for his next victim because he could control her. JMO
 
The latest idea I've been tumbling around in my mind is that the salient characteristics of the two girls were that they were available and easily controlled. Available in that wherever they were when they were abducted was somewhere no one else was looking at that instant in time.

I'm wondering if the perp is someone who feels he cannot control a normal adult woman, so he picks young girls. If that is so, I wonder if he practised first on frail elderly women. I don't recall any murders in Iowa that fit that description but there have been a few assaults and rapes.

And I have also come to think that it's possible the perp has a partner. Maybe the salient characteristics of the girls included that there were two of them.

Although I doubt these cases would relate to Elizabeth and Lyric, there are two UNSOLVED homicides of elderly women that BOTH happend in 2008 within a few months of each other, and within a few miles of each other. Both of the women were attacked in their homes and there was no robbery. LE said there were similarities in the cases but they didn't think they were related, but who knows maybe there were "unusable" fingerprints!

http://iowacoldcases.org/case-summaries/margaret-feige/
http://iowacoldcases.org/case-summaries/hazel-reimann/
 
The latest idea I've been tumbling around in my mind is that the salient characteristics of the two girls were that they were available and easily controlled. Available in that wherever they were when they were abducted was somewhere no one else was looking at that instant in time.

I'm wondering if the perp is someone who feels he cannot control a normal adult woman, so he picks young girls. If that is so, I wonder if he practised first on frail elderly women. I don't recall any murders in Iowa that fit that description but there have been a few assaults and rapes.

And I have also come to think that it's possible the perp has a partner. Maybe the salient characteristics of the girls included that there were two of them.

I didn't really know anything about chomos until 2 yrs go from being on this forum....and am far from being knowledgeable on the subject. Still learning and still being shocked by some of things brought forward. I could not understand why a grown man would be sexually attracted to little children. Some say there is no sexual urge from the perp...but I'm on the fence with that one... since if it wasn't sexual, why do they still sexually assualt them? But do agree it is about control....and not all physical control. IMO, most chomos cannot have an intimate non sexual relationship with anyone..let alone a sexual one for any length of time with a fully functioning mature adult. They have trouble expressing themselves and relating to other adults, probably because they feel inferior and scared of loosing control of their image or projected self. Children can be easily manipulated and coerced with very little superficial promptings and authoritated fear. (Another issue that I feel needs to be addressed.. another time)

Sexual assualts on the frail and elderly is another psychological ballgame being played out...but, that's JMO.

I like you believe it was two partners in crime also. One an SO and one with a violent background being talked or agged on in the experimentaion of such. The clean up man so to speak. Drug or alcohol use.

JMO
 
BBM

Someone like Austin Siggs, Jessica Ridgeway's killer. A couple of months before he abducted and killed Jessica, he grabbed a 22 year old woman on a hiking trail, but she was able to get away. I feel he went after a young girl for his next victim because he could control her. JMO

Absolutely.

In one sense, Sigg is a classic example of the type of predator that attacks young girls. He already discovered he was not capable of controlling a normal adult woman.

If he hadn't attacked on Jessica, I think there was a good chance that he would have preyed on a frail older woman or a woman with a physical disability that made her an easy target.

There isn't a lot of dialog about the risks that physically disabled people face but it is true that they are at higher risk of attack. For instance, I have a friend who has epilepsy who has been robbed twice while she was seizuring and raped once. It boggles my mind to think of what could possibly go through the mind of someone who could see a fellow human being helpless in the throes of a seizure and think "easy victim" rather than "OMG, call 911!!!"

But there it is. The vast minority of human beings who are predators don't think like normal people and they are constantly on the alert for potential victims.
 
I didn't really know anything about chomos until 2 yrs go from being on this forum....and am far from being knowledgeable on the subject. Still learning and still being shocked by some of things brought forward. I could not understand why a grown man would be sexually attracted to little children. Some say there is no sexual urge from the perp...but I'm on the fence with that one... since if it wasn't sexual, why do they still sexually assualt them? But do agree it is about control....and not all physical control. IMO, most chomos cannot have an intimate non sexual relationship with anyone..let alone a sexual one for any length of time with a fully functioning mature adult. They have trouble expressing themselves and relating to other adults, probably because they feel inferior and scared of loosing control of their image or projected self. Children can be easily manipulated and coerced with very little superficial promptings and authoritated fear. (Another issue that I feel needs to be addressed.. another time)

Sexual assualts on the frail and elderly is another psychological ballgame being played out...but, that's JMO.

I like you believe it was two partners in crime also. One an SO and one with a violent background being talked or agged on in the experimentaion of such. The clean up man so to speak. Drug or alcohol use.

JMO

BBM

I appreciate your post, but disagree with the bolded comment. Here is a comment about child molesters:

The majority are not exclusively attracted to children, have adult emotional relationships, and have not molested multiple child victims.

http://www.doc.state.mn.us/level3/p... indicators of adults who molest children.pdf

So the perp could be a married man in a stable relationship, IMO.


Here's a recent article about the four types of child molesters:

Although the offenders who skulk around playgrounds or have difficulty hiding their desires are obvious, they’re not that prevalent. We must be concerned with those who skillfully hide their predilections so that they can practice undetected for years.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shadow-boxing/201206/how-can-we-spot-child-molester


Finally, here's something from Oprah - not an authoritative source, but I found it interesting:

First, 90 percent of child molesters know their victims. Most are not strangers who lurk in the bushes, waiting to kidnap children. "We're talking about family friends, uncles, fathers, brothers and neighbors," Oprah says. "Less than 10 percent of molesters are the strangers who are abducting kids who you see on the news."

Read more: http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/4-Things-to-Know-About-Child-Molestation#ixzz2HnpFz2vM
 
Absolutely.

In one sense, Sigg is a classic example of the type of predator that attacks young girls. He already discovered he was not capable of controlling a normal adult woman.

If he hadn't attacked on Jessica, I think there was a good chance that he would have preyed on a frail older woman or a woman with a physical disability that made her an easy target.

There isn't a lot of dialog about the risks that physically disabled people face but it is true that they are at higher risk of attack. For instance, I have a friend who has epilepsy who has been robbed twice while she was seizuring and raped once. It boggles my mind to think of what could possibly go through the mind of someone who could see a fellow human being helpless in the throes of a seizure and think "easy victim" rather than "OMG, call 911!!!"

But there it is. The vast minority of human beings who are predators don't think like normal people and they are constantly on the alert for potential victims.

Good post, really well said...like it is a different mindset to be a predator and not be held back by whatever it is that prevents most of us from shamelessly and blatantly taking advantage of others.
 
Went to Decorah today, and on the way back, we drove by 7 Bridges. I really wasn't aware of how remote it was, and how difficult it was to get there. Since we came from the north, we turned south on V56, west on 252nd street, then c50 south, Tahoe, left (east) on 270th. Id heard "the bridge is out " over the wapsi, but to the east of the entrance, continuing east, is private property. The perp probably came up canfield to Tuscon avenue and then in to the park. The road east of Tuscon is pretty bad. There is no way that this person came upon this park accidently. Ive always thought it was a local, and now I'm convinced that its a local of the Readlyn area.

Leaving, we went west on 270th to the tiny town of Klinger and took V49 (raymond road) all the way to Raymond, then to highway 20 west through Evansdale and home. That was the fastest way home. So the Perl could have come up this way, too.

As far as the park itself, it was closed. I really wanted to at least drive through. We drive east of the entrance to the property line, but then had to back up to the entrance to turn around, the road was that bad, and narrow. I took a couple of pictures. Will post later.
 
BBM

I appreciate your post, but disagree with the bolded comment. Here is a comment about child molesters:

The majority are not exclusively attracted to children, have adult emotional relationships, and have not molested multiple child victims.

http://www.doc.state.mn.us/level3/p... indicators of adults who molest children.pdf

So the perp could be a married man in a stable relationship, IMO.


Here's a recent article about the four types of child molesters:

Although the offenders who skulk around playgrounds or have difficulty hiding their desires are obvious, they’re not that prevalent. We must be concerned with those who skillfully hide their predilections so that they can practice undetected for years.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/shadow-boxing/201206/how-can-we-spot-child-molester


Finally, here's something from Oprah - not an authoritative source, but I found it interesting:

First, 90 percent of child molesters know their victims. Most are not strangers who lurk in the bushes, waiting to kidnap children. "We're talking about family friends, uncles, fathers, brothers and neighbors," Oprah says. "Less than 10 percent of molesters are the strangers who are abducting kids who you see on the news."

Read more: http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/4-Things-to-Know-About-Child-Molestation#ixzz2HnpFz2vM

Thank you for the articles Marilyn, but I'm not quite sure I can fully agree with the first....and have a few questions about their findings. This is not "at" you, just for the discussion. :seeya: I plan to go back and read the sources they listed to see what specific group stated this...and if they have updated themselves in the past 3 years.

Quote:
The majority are not exclusively attracted to children, have adult emotional relationships, and have not molested multiple child victims.

1. The article doesn't go on to say why the majority still do it if they aren't attracted to them. According to this we should be way more concerned about uncle Barney and other family and friends and forget the stranger danger. They also neglect to say "healthy" adult emotional relationships. This group may be full of manipulating emotional, mental, financial or physical abusers..?

2. They have not molested mutiple child victims? So they have only molested one child...and all the research saying child molesters cannot be rehibilitated are incorrect; along with all the reasoning behind the mandated registration of such majorities. ???
 
Thank you for the articles Marilyn, but I'm not quite sure I can fully agree with the first....and have a few questions about their findings. This is not "at" you, just for the discussion. :seeya: I plan to go back and read the sources they listed to see what specific group stated this...and if they have updated themselves in the past 3 years.

Quote:
The majority are not exclusively attracted to children, have adult emotional relationships, and have not molested multiple child victims.

1. The article doesn't go on to say why the majority still do it if they aren't attracted to them. According to this we should be way more concerned about uncle Barney and other family and friends and forget the stranger danger. They also neglect to say "healthy" adult emotional relationships. This group may be full of manipulating emotional, mental, financial or physical abusers..?

2. They have not molested mutiple child victims? So they have only molested one child...and all the research saying child molesters cannot be rehibilitated are incorrect; along with all the reasoning behind the mandated registration of such majorities. ???

Interesting questions, and I'll be interested in finding out if you have updated information about what I posted. I know the first link I posted was from 2009, so it may very well be outdated. I wouldn't be surprised if you find contradictory information.

Basically, my post was intended to make sure we don't assume a child molester cannot be in a long-standing adult relationship.

It appears child molesters fall into more than one category so, while it might be true that certain molesters cannot maintain adult relationships, I don't believe that is always the case. We should look at anyone, including men who have been married for a long time, or in a long-term relationship. JMO
 
I believe the tank is up the trail...on the other side of where Elmer comes in....just off the trail and near the NW area of the lake. But we need a local to confirm. The object below the paddle boat looks like a sunken paddleboat to me .???? Maybe it's just the reflecton or perhaps a piece of sunken dock.

http://binged.it/13nrTnp

this is the tank

Some have asked where the tank is located, as well as the bathrooms at the park in relation to where the bikes were found. The tank is circled in blue, the restrooms in red and the (general) location of the bikes in pink.

Sorry I cropped out the bike trail to the west (left), but you get the general idea.

Bringing some links and posts containing excellent maps forward for us.
Well, apparently the maps themselves didn't come forward.

Anyway, when I saw TT's map, it struck me that anyone in the parking lot area has a clear view to the possible abduction site of the girls and the position of their bikes. I guess I have always assumed the site was hidden by the island from the front of the park. The island is a lot further away from the site than I thought. I guess zooming in causes pictures to have a distortion in the actual view.

Also looking at HB's bing map, is the interstate elevated so someone could walk under it anywhere other than where the exits are located?

ETA - I found that clicking on the blue box next to the poster's name carries you back to that post.
ETA - I didn't mean to slight Otto and his maps which are also excellent. I just didn't find his post fast enough.
 
Went to Decorah today, and on the way back, we drove by 7 Bridges. I really wasn't aware of how remote it was, and how difficult it was to get there. Since we came from the north, we turned south on V56, west on 252nd street, then c50 south, Tahoe, left (east) on 270th. Id heard "the bridge is out " over the wapsi, but to the east of the entrance, continuing east, is private property. The perp probably came up canfield to Tuscon avenue and then in to the park. The road east of Tuscon is pretty bad. There is no way that this person came upon this park accidently. Ive always thought it was a local, and now I'm convinced that its a local of the Readlyn area.

Leaving, we went west on 270th to the tiny town of Klinger and took V49 (raymond road) all the way to Raymond, then to highway 20 west through Evansdale and home. That was the fastest way home. So the Perl could have come up this way, too.

As far as the park itself, it was closed. I really wanted to at least drive through. We drive east of the entrance to the property line, but then had to back up to the entrance to turn around, the road was that bad, and narrow. I took a couple of pictures. Will post later.

This is why is is got to be a local.
 
Bringing some links and posts containing excellent maps forward for us.
Well, apparently the maps themselves didn't come forward.

Anyway, when I saw TT's map, it struck me that anyone in the parking lot area has a clear view to the possible abduction site of the girls and the position of their bikes. I guess I have always assumed the site was hidden by the island from the front of the park. The island is a lot further away from the site than I thought. I guess zooming in causes pictures to have a distortion in the actual view.

Also looking at HB's bing map, is the interstate elevated so someone could walk under it anywhere other than where the exits are located?

ETA - I found that clicking on the blue box next to the poster's name carries you back to that post.
ETA - I didn't mean to slight Otto and his maps which are also excellent. I just didn't find his post fast enough.


Nope. When you are at the area where the bikes were found, it is a good view of the parking lot, but when your at the parking lot, it is not a clear view to where the bikes were found. My husband never saw me sitting on my bike at the gate. He was in the parking lot by the restrooms.
 
Thank you for the articles Marilyn, but I'm not quite sure I can fully agree with the first....and have a few questions about their findings. This is not "at" you, just for the discussion. :seeya: I plan to go back and read the sources they listed to see what specific group stated this...and if they have updated themselves in the past 3 years.

Quote:
The majority are not exclusively attracted to children, have adult emotional relationships, and have not molested multiple child victims.

1. The article doesn't go on to say why the majority still do it if they aren't attracted to them. According to this we should be way more concerned about uncle Barney and other family and friends and forget the stranger danger. They also neglect to say "healthy" adult emotional relationships. This group may be full of manipulating emotional, mental, financial or physical abusers..?

2. They have not molested mutiple child victims? So they have only molested one child...and all the research saying child molesters cannot be rehibilitated are incorrect; along with all the reasoning behind the mandated registration of such majorities. ???

As to your first question, the quoted portion doesn't say that child molesters are not attracted to children. It says they are not exclusively attracted to children. I take that to mean that they are attracted to both adults and children.

Stranger rape is about 10% of all rapes (both with children and adults) although it is over-represented in police reports. It is way, way over-represented in prosecutions because even with a police report, prosecutors remain deeply unwilling to prosecute acquaintance rapes.

As to the second question, research done on the subject of rape in general may shed some light. Two studies, well constructed and on large populations of men (Lisak et al and McWhorter) both found that men will self-report to acts of rape so long as the described acts are not identified as rape. For example, men will admit to "having sex with someone who is so drunk that they are unable to give consent" but not to "raping someone who is so drunk they are unable to give consent." Both acts are rape but men will not admit to the second wording.

Based on those studies, about 7-9% of all men have committed rape. Of those men who admitted to committing acts that fulfil the legal definition of rape, about half only did it once. The other half had an average of over 8 victims each (I think... now I can't remember if it was over 6 or over 8).

Extrapolating to child molesters, that means that about half of all child molesters have one victim and half have multiple victims. It is a bit of a stretch to make that extrapolation but I don't think it is completely unlikely that the two populations of assaulters share characteristics.

Tangential point: this is another reason why unprocessed rape kits are such a problem. If you have one person who reports an acquaintance rape and gets a forensic rape exam, the chances are that rape kit will not be processed. Prosecutors think of it as a "she said, he said" situation and are unwilling to bring charges.

But if those rape kits were processed, I'm betting a lot of them would point to the same acquaintance rapists. It's one thing to think it's just a matter of "she said, he said" if there is only one victim. But put together reports and rape kits from six victims and it sure as heck looks like a lot more than "she said, he said." It looks like a pattern and it is a pattern that research shows is the most common type of rapist.
 
In the very beginning I thought for sure that whoever abducted the girls did it from the interstate. But no way, for one there is so much construction and it would almost be impossible to pull off at that area.
 
Bringing some links and posts containing excellent maps forward for us.
Well, apparently the maps themselves didn't come forward.

Anyway, when I saw TT's map, it struck me that anyone in the parking lot area has a clear view to the possible abduction site of the girls and the position of their bikes. I guess I have always assumed the site was hidden by the island from the front of the park. The island is a lot further away from the site than I thought. I guess zooming in causes pictures to have a distortion in the actual view.

SBM

The part of the trail where the bicycles were found was hidden from view from the other side of the lake. At that point, the trail was fenced in on both sides with 8 or 10 foot chainlink fencing with vines covering it. The foliage concealed the trail but was not real obvious from the other side of the lake due to the steep embankment up to I-380. The vegetation on the embankment blended with the vines and it was difficult to see that the trail was obscured.
 
In the very beginning I thought for sure that whoever abducted the girls did it from the interstate. But no way, for one there is so much construction and it would almost be impossible to pull off at that area.

What if you were a construction worker? (taking a late lunch, leaving early, etc)
 
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