IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #29

[alliemay]

What factories are near by?

 

[LucyOso]

You make a good point, but eye witness reports, specifically Mr Carpenter, his wife, and any other persons that were able to help narrow the timeline from 12:00 - 3:00 to 12:30-1:00, indicate that Elizabeth regularly cycled to Lake Avenue in the evenings. This wasn't a one time event according to people that lived near the lake. We also have the relative of one of Elizabeth's friends discussing Elizabeth cycling in the area. All of this points to the more llikely fact that Elizabeth routinely cycled to the lake.

The parents, on the other hand (specifically Heather, as Drew is vague about this point), and relatives of the children, have said that the children did not cycle to the park. I find it difficult to believe that Elizabeth cycled there so often, chatting with people that lived on the street, that people knew and recognized her, but that Drew and Heather knew absolutely nothing about it. It is possible, of course, but if that is the case, then it sounds like Elizabeth was an adventurous child and her parents were not entirely aware of what she was doing when she cycled in the evenings.

When Heather says that Elizabeth phoned when she arrived after cycling to her friend's house, did she mean the friend near the lake? If so, then she knew that Elizabeth cycled to the lake and that Elizabeth knew the route to the lake.

Thanks Otto for the feedback. I guess I did not clarify my point exactly. Kids often have routines they do, such as riding bikes somewhere, and parents never know. Yes, she could have regularly gone to the lake. She may have never mentioned it to the parents and the parents never thought of it or forbid her from doing so. My son (I live in a smaller town) has many places he goes; he talks with business owners, and neighbors, and has his own "life" on his journeys. He and ____were even helping out at the firework stand for 2 months before I knew about it. They would go from the park to the stand and help for an hour, then come home. He and his friend had two elderly people they would volunteer to mow the lawn for. It was part of their routine. The only reason why I found out is when they mowed the lawn they would occasionally get $5 and one time they came home with drinks and snacks and I asked about it. With the firework stand, the day he showed up with fireworks he worked for, I went down there and met the people at the stand and all the kids in town were doing it. My son has a cellphone and is required to check in every hour. So, if he is riding home from the firework stand, being a literal child he will say that he is riding his bike home and not elaborate on what he is doing the past hour. It is not truth by omission, just more how kids think. All I am saying is even the most attentive parents (trust me, I really do stalk my children-GPS on phones, etc) often do not know what exactly their children are doing until something occurs. In this case, yes Elizabeth had her own routine and frequented the lake unbeknownst to the parents. Tragically, the parents never got the opportunity to have the "don't do there" talk with her. No-one is a perfect parent and crap happens regardless of how attentive or how much we helicopter-parent our kids. I just am trying to graciously understand that these parents may have been in the dark about what their kids were doing and it can happen to any of us. It is awful and I can't sit here and judge them based on journalism and the media reports.

 

[Reverie]

I don't know why I thought I heard they rode by Caseys? I asked because there is a Caseys on LaFayette, kinda across to the bike trail that leads south to the lake.

Iirc, Misty worked at the Casey's in Elk Run. Several miles away.

 

[LucyOso]

Reading between the lines, Heather/Drew seems to be saying that:

"wander" presumably means cycling more than a couple of blocks from home

• Elizabeth doesn't "wander"
• every now and then Elizabeth does "wander"
• Elizabeth "wandered" when she was with Lyric
• Elizabeth has never "wandered" to the lake
• if Elizabeth "wandered" to the lake she was with an adult
• if Elizabeth "wandered" to the lake she did it without permission

These are really good points. What was she trying to say? I think the term "wander" can mean very different things to different people. We have to look at regional terms, educational levels, and various other things. We also need to look at the whole interview process. L’esprit de l’escalier means a too late thought or retort after departure. Meaning, many of us, when interviewed or under pressure say things that make minimal sense and are not as witty, articulate, or succinct as we would like. Then after an interview, we suddenly think of ways we could have better handled the situation or what we could have said. My guess is this family is NOT trained in TV interviews and what they say in the moment is NOT what they would have said if the had time to formulate their thoughts or knew the interview questions beforehand. I am sure I would not interview well under the circumstances. :twocents:

 

[foxbluff]

Here's a new idea: We could go in together on purchasing this Meyers lake WF home which is in easy walking distance of where the bikes were found and in easy biking distance to most of the key places in this sad case to which, it appears to me, we are equally drawn.

http://hotpads.com/real-estate/1218-S-Evans-Road-Evansdale-IA-50707--41jf1qq5fctre

I believe the subj hm for sale is the middle one in the (3) clearly defined rooftops showing in a row.

If you click on the StreetView of the map, Zoom in a bit, and then Arrow Down, you're get a beautiful view of the lush green Wooded Area and the trail where the bikes were found.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I "wandered" as a kid, on my bike, and my parents neither knew nor cared where I got to.

As long as I turned up for dinner. I was never once asked where I had got to, what I had done, who I had seen, by any member of my family.

I suggest small town Iowa may be similar. Considered "safe".

I live in a city of a million souls which has the reputation as the world's largest country town. My neighbour let her kids roam exactly the same way because she too perceived it as safe, and it actually was. The last child abducted here was Rihanna Barreau and that was nearly 20 years ago.

 

[LucyOso]

Here's a new idea: We could go in together on purchasing this Meyers lake WF home which is in easy walking distance of where the bikes were found and in easy biking distance to most of the key places in this sad case to which, it appears to me, we are equally drawn.

http://hotpads.com/real-estate/1218-S-Evans-Road-Evansdale-IA-50707--41jf1qq5fctre

I believe the subj hm for sale is the middle one in the (3) clearly defined rooftops showing in a row.

If you click on the StreetView of the map, Zoom in a bit, and then Arrow Down, you're get a beautiful view of the lush green Wooded Area and the trail where the bikes were found.

I often wondered if the opportunity arose from a home for sale. A perp is shown a house by a real estate agent, leaves a window unlocked or door, then revisits the home later for staging a crime. :-( I would imagine LE got records from all agents and those viewing homes for those homes though.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Here's a new idea: We could go in together on purchasing this Meyers lake WF home which is in easy walking distance of where the bikes were found and in easy biking distance to most of the key places in this sad case to which, it appears to me, we are equally drawn.

http://hotpads.com/real-estate/1218-S-Evans-Road-Evansdale-IA-50707--41jf1qq5fctre

I believe the subj hm for sale is the middle one in the (3) clearly defined rooftops showing in a row.

If you click on the StreetView of the map, Zoom in a bit, and then Arrow Down, you're get a beautiful view of the lush green Wooded Area and the trail where the bikes were found.

LOL

Some of us are camped out in a motel, homeless, for the third time since Christmas!

I volunteer for the caretaker job. :seeya:

 

[LucyOso]

LOL

Some of us are camped out in a motel, homeless, for the third time since Christmas!

I volunteer for the caretaker job. :seeya:

I hope all is well. I am going to assume it is weather/natural disaster related? PM me if you need someone to talk to.

 

[Considering]

Thanks Otto for the feedback. I guess I did not clarify my point exactly. Kids often have routines they do, such as riding bikes somewhere, and parents never know. Yes, she could have regularly gone to the lake. She may have never mentioned it to the parents and the parents never thought of it or forbid her from doing so. My son (I live in a smaller town) has many places he goes; he talks with business owners, and neighbors, and has his own "life" on his journeys. He and ____were even helping out at the firework stand for 2 months before I knew about it. They would go from the park to the stand and help for an hour, then come home. He and his friend had two elderly people they would volunteer to mow the lawn for. It was part of their routine. The only reason why I found out is when they mowed the lawn they would occasionally get $5 and one time they came home with drinks and snacks and I asked about it. With the firework stand, the day he showed up with fireworks he worked for, I went down there and met the people at the stand and all the kids in town were doing it. My son has a cellphone and is required to check in every hour. So, if he is riding home from the firework stand, being a literal child he will say that he is riding his bike home and not elaborate on what he is doing the past hour. It is not truth by omission, just more how kids think. All I am saying is even the most attentive parents (trust me, I really do stalk my children-GPS on phones, etc) often do not know what exactly their children are doing until something occurs. In this case, yes Elizabeth had her own routine and frequented the lake unbeknownst to the parents. Tragically, the parents never got the opportunity to have the "don't do there" talk with her. No-one is a perfect parent and crap happens regardless of how attentive or how much we helicopter-parent our kids. I just am trying to graciously understand that these parents may have been in the dark about what their kids were doing and it can happen to any of us. It is awful and I can't sit here and judge them based on journalism and the media reports.

I don't think anyone is judging the parents. Otto has said he isn't and I'm not judging them, either. My own children cycled all over our neighborhood in the summertime. They were back and forth between our house and the houses of neighborhood friends all day. I think my doors, including the refrigerator door, were open more than they were shut. I sure didn't know where they were every minute.

:skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip:

SBM

Either Elizabeth knew the route and had cycled there in the past, or she didn't. I've been under the impression that she had never, in her entire life, cycled from Brovan to Lake Avenue prior to the abduction ... as that is what the family has half said. I'm now wondering if that information was somewhat "white washed" to prevent anyone from thinking that an 8 year old routinely cycled up to a mile away. There's nothing wrong with that, but maybe there's a perception that it was irresponsible - especially in light of what has happened.

 

[LucyOso]

I don't think anyone is judging the parents. Otto has said he isn't and I'm not judging them, either. My own children cycled all over our neighborhood in the summertime. They were back and forth between our house and the houses of neighborhood friends all day. I think my doors, including the refrigerator door, were open more than they were shut. I sure didn't know where they were every minute.

:skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip: :skip:

SBM

I love the skip things! Those are so cute. I am sorry if I come across as implying the family is judged by people on here. That was not my intent, I am just saying that my kids are all over the place, so I can't judge. There have been other posts on other cases on WS where the family is torn apart, so I like to do my :twocents: about how I am a human and not the perfect parent...LOL. The big thing for me is to make certain the focus is on figuring out who committed this awful crime and what we can realistically do in the future to assure our children are safe and can enjoy the outdoors freely.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I love the skip things! Those are so cute. I am sorry if I come across as implying the family is judged by people on here. That was not my intent, I am just saying that my kids are all over the place, so I can't judge. There have been other posts on other cases on WS where the family is torn apart, so I like to do my :twocents: about how I am a human and not the perfect parent...LOL. The big thing for me is to make certain the focus is on figuring out who committed this awful crime and what we can realistically do in the future to assure our children are safe and can enjoy the outdoors freely.

You've also got to consider the damage you do to your children when you wrap them in cotton wool.

Overwhelmingly, it is safe out there. Otherwise every class in every school would have a missing, presumed abducted child.

Most kids go through their entire lives without knowing another child who was abducted and murdered...or even knowing someone who knows someone who was.

It's hard to get perspective but in a small town, everyone knows everyone, it's out of the way...heck I'd let my girls bike to that lake especially if they had street training and a phone, like Lyric and Lizzie did.

 

[Marilynilpa]

LOL

Some of us are camped out in a motel, homeless, for the third time since Christmas!

I volunteer for the caretaker job. :seeya:

Flooding, perhaps?

I'll send positive thoughts your way (and I hope your cat is doing well!)

 

[iamnotagolem]

I'm not trying to bash LE, but I do not believe they ever did a thorough search of the houses around the lake. I believe last time ollipop (is that the right SN?) posted they had still never been to his house. If they skipped his house or his house wasn't in their search radius, how many other houses on the lake weren't investigated?

Either they have evidence that the girls were taken immediately out of the area, or had no reason to pursue a thorough search of the immediate area and houses.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Regarding "wandering", I understand otto's point. I've posted before that my sister and I frequently "wandered" on our bikes during summer vacation. Both of our parents worked so they gave us specific guidelines about what we could/couldn't do and where we could/couldn't go when they weren't home. But that didn't keep my sister and I from biking a couple times a week (or more) to a smallish lake about 3 miles away. My parents never found out until my sister and I confessed as adults to (some) of our childish wrongdoings!

My rambling point is, if my sister and I had been kidnapped, my parents would swear that we never biked or played outside a certain number of blocks. They may have suspected we pushed the boundaries a little, but they never, ever suspected we'd bike to the lake on our own.

I don't believe Grandma had any idea of how far the girls normally biked - she had her hands full cleaning, watching the other kids, taking care of the pets, etc. As long as the girls "eventually" heard her when she called them, IMO she assumed they hadn't biked too far away. Also, after the girls went missing, Grandma was probably going through all kinds of hell. Maybe she wanted to minimize any perceived negligence on her part by emphasizing that the girls would never bike that far, and that she checked on them frequently.

IMO Heather and Drew are attentive parents, and felt that Lizzie wouldn't bike beyond a certain number of blocks without asking permission. Like my parents, maybe they kinda knew Lizzie biked a little further than she should, but had no idea she would bike that far.

I'm not slamming the family in any way. It seems to me that they did the best they could to make sure the children were cared for during Heather's heath situation and Misty's recent return to work. JMO.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I'm not trying to bash LE, but I do not believe they ever did a thorough search of the houses around the lake. I believe last time ollipop (is that the right SN?) posted they had still never been to his house. If they skipped his house or his house wasn't in their search radius, how many other houses on the lake weren't investigated?

Either they have evidence that the girls were taken immediately out of the area, or had no reason to pursue a thorough search of the immediate area and houses.

I haven't looked for ollipop's posts, but you're right about him saying his house was not searched when the girls went missing. IIRC, LE did come by at a later date.

I've never felt the search of the immediate area was as thorough as it could have been, based on ollipop's comments. JMO

 

[foxbluff]

You've also got to consider the damage you do to your children when you wrap them in cotton wool.

Overwhelmingly, it is safe out there. Otherwise every class in every school would have a missing, presumed abducted child.

Most kids go through their entire lives without knowing another child who was abducted and murdered...or even knowing someone who knows someone who was.

It's hard to get perspective but in a small town, everyone knows everyone, it's out of the way...heck I'd let my girls bike to that lake especially if they had street training and a phone, like Lyric and Lizzie did.

BBM - Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes !!

And, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen !!

I mean really... it's not like we're all here because we feel that the subj case is just another day in the life of a child...

And, let's admit, EVERYBODY here has survived childhood...

 

[foxbluff]

LOL

Some of us are camped out in a motel, homeless, for the third time since Christmas!

I volunteer for the caretaker job. :seeya:

BBM - OMG... I'm now feeling guilty that I had considered adding a P.S. to my original post that went like this: I've got dibs on the Master Bedroom.

(And, btw, my thoughts then went to: If there should be an overbooking of a wkend or week of my choice, then Saph and M.PA would be my 1st choices to share the Master Bedroom w/me.)

 

[cindersoot]

BBM - Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes !!

And, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen !!

I mean really... it's not like we're all here because we feel that the subj case is just another day in the life of a child...

And, let's admit, EVERYBODY here has survived childhood...

:seeya: I survived childhood without a cell phone, and normal caring parents.

 

[otto]

Thanks Otto for the feedback. I guess I did not clarify my point exactly. Kids often have routines they do, such as riding bikes somewhere, and parents never know. Yes, she could have regularly gone to the lake. She may have never mentioned it to the parents and the parents never thought of it or forbid her from doing so. My son (I live in a smaller town) has many places he goes; he talks with business owners, and neighbors, and has his own "life" on his journeys. He and ____were even helping out at the firework stand for 2 months before I knew about it. They would go from the park to the stand and help for an hour, then come home. He and his friend had two elderly people they would volunteer to mow the lawn for. It was part of their routine. The only reason why I found out is when they mowed the lawn they would occasionally get $5 and one time they came home with drinks and snacks and I asked about it. With the firework stand, the day he showed up with fireworks he worked for, I went down there and met the people at the stand and all the kids in town were doing it. My son has a cellphone and is required to check in every hour. So, if he is riding home from the firework stand, being a literal child he will say that he is riding his bike home and not elaborate on what he is doing the past hour. It is not truth by omission, just more how kids think. All I am saying is even the most attentive parents (trust me, I really do stalk my children-GPS on phones, etc) often do not know what exactly their children are doing until something occurs. In this case, yes Elizabeth had her own routine and frequented the lake unbeknownst to the parents. Tragically, the parents never got the opportunity to have the "don't do there" talk with her. No-one is a perfect parent and crap happens regardless of how attentive or how much we helicopter-parent our kids. I just am trying to graciously understand that these parents may have been in the dark about what their kids were doing and it can happen to any of us. It is awful and I can't sit here and judge them based on journalism and the media reports.

I have consistently said that there is nothing wrong with two children cycling 10 blocks (one mile) by themselves on a summer afternoon in a small town.