IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #29

[rachaellouise]

If there was a life insurance policy on either or both of the kids, surely then LE would be coming down harder on the policy holder? JMO

 

[shoregirl]

Craigs list Cedar falls/ waterloo
the Craigs list poet ((KD)) is being attacked by his own words.
They are taking lines out of his poetry and asking his questions about Killing Lyric and Elizabeth.
the are saying that tey know who he is and have mentioned
sources.
People have writen to Kwwl news tips to try and get them to do a story on this guy
Myself included.
I do not now if it has to do with that or someone else.


http://waterloo.craigslist.org/rnr/

This guy is an absolute moron and it has been going on for a long time with various attempts to have him investigated. He doesn't deserve a story, he's the worst poet EVER and the attention he is getting from his "shock" tactics are probably making him very happy. I would take it to mean he is of no interest to them if none of the many tips to them have not been looked into. Or, they did look into it and found nothing.

 

[shoregirl]

If there was a life insurance policy on either or both of the kids, surely then LE would be coming down harder on the policy holder? JMO

Exactly.

 

[threecrazykids]

That would mean family. One of the first things investigated is who will profit from this death. It would be a pretty elaborate scheme and I don't think any of them could pull it off.

I think you will find several people on the board who will kindly disagree with you on this. I am still torn as to what I think happened. I do think though that it would almost be harder to prove a case with the familial connection because, correct me if I'm wrong, the majority of the evidence would be circumstantial?

Touch DNA (unless there WAS a sexual assault - barf) from the families, could be on either girl and that could be hard to defend (in court). There would be reason for it to be there. Now if there was blood or skin under the girls nails, that would be a different story.

Some people here believe it wasn't complicated at all. It APPEARS to be a complicated case, otherwise I would think an arrest would have been made...but then again, I don't build cases so I don't know what all is needed to seal a deal on an arrest warrant.

My thought is this - if they had their suspect/suspects in their sights, had the motive figured out etc., and were just waiting on the DNA, then I feel it's safe to assume the DNA wasn't recoverable or it didn't match. I'm leaning more and more every day to the belief that there wasn't a forensic match to anyone familial.

 

[threecrazykids]

If there was a life insurance policy on either or both of the kids, surely then LE would be coming down harder on the policy holder? JMO

Call it what you want - stereotypical, etc. - but this family doesn't come across (to me anyway) as one that would have life insurance policies on their kids.

Dan and Misty both were living with their parents, Misty had JUST started a job, and Dan didn't have a job.

Heather has health problems, doesn't have a job (that I've ever heard of) and Dan is self employed, and had struggled financially with his business in the past.

Neither one of these families appear to have excessive funds that would allow them to pay for insurance policies.

It's not bashing them...it's life, and it's very common for a lot of people to not be able to afford policies. Life insurance policies aren't typically something that are at the top of people's budget when they are struggling financially.

And I could be wrong...maybe they do have policies on the girls. If they do, it would surprise me greatly.

 

[shoregirl]

I think you will find several people on the board who will kindly disagree with you on this. I am still torn as to what I think happened. I do think though that it would almost be harder to prove a case with the familial connection because, correct me if I'm wrong, the majority of the evidence would be circumstantial?

Touch DNA (unless there WAS a sexual assault - barf) from the families, could be on either girl and that could be hard to defend (in court). There would be reason for it to be there. Now if there was blood or skin under the girls nails, that would be a different story.

Some people here believe it wasn't complicated at all. It APPEARS to be a complicated case, otherwise I would think an arrest would have been made...but then again, I don't build cases so I don't know what all is needed to seal a deal on an arrest warrant.

My thought is this - if they had their suspect/suspects in their sights, had the motive figured out etc., and were just waiting on the DNA, then I feel it's safe to assume the DNA wasn't recoverable or it didn't match. I'm leaning more and more every day to the belief that there wasn't a forensic match to anyone familial.

In many ways we agree, I had posted earlier that it seems cases with "close to home" suspects do seem as they would be harder to prove. However with THIS family I have looked at it long and hard and I can't see a motive. Why would someone in the family kill both of the girls? I have never given much credence to the whole Dan/revenge plot, it just doesn't seem plausible imo. What on earth could they possible gain that would make the killing of two children a viable act? Maybe I am naive, but the killing of a child is against our strongest, most basic instincts. Maybe I just don't want to face that someone they loved would have killed them. But in the end it just doesn't seem plausible. My take on the apparent lack of DNA match is the opposite of yours, I think they have DNA but no one to match to or it non-recoverable.
I believe it is a simple case. Random and Impulse. I respect the opinions of all and sometimes I am just plain on the fence. With this case I always felt like it was random. Now, I could be eating some SERIOUS crow before too long, but alas, it wouldn't be the first time. If not for the Dan issue who else in the family do you think would do such a thing? And for what reason? I honestly am interested.

 

[daisynae]

Boy I thought we were just having a friendly conversation.
I will check back later.

 

[shoregirl]

Boy I thought we were just having a friendly conversation.
I will check back later.

Sorry Daisy, I read that back and realized it sounded alot snarkier than it did in my head. No way did I mean to upset you. He upsets me because it seems as if the more people gave him attention the more his postings ratcheted up.

 

[Marilynilpa]

While the inquisitive part of me wishes LE would give us more info, there really isn't any reason for them to do so. As an "armchair detective", I'd like to know cause of death/manner of death, how long the girls' bodies had been at 7 Bridges, etc. But IMO, releasing that info to the public would not do anything to help locate the killer(s) of these two little girls.

Let's say LE told us the girls had been shot. Now what? Would the community feel safer by knowing this? I don't think so. Would the info generate any more tips? Unlikely, IMO. So why release that info, other than to satisfy the public's curiosity? Again, JMO, and I am fully aware that many of you will disagree with me.:what:

Regarding the need for community involvement, I don't see how that pertains to a murder investigation. JMO. The public has been advised what to look for, and LE says tips have come in. So the community does seem to be involved.

Here is part what DCI told us at the three month anniversary:

Perhaps you know someone that has raised your suspicion for some reason that you can't quite explain. Don't ignore your natural instincts - they can be very valuable. If you know someone that has had an abrupt, significant, and unexplained change of behavior, or suddenly decided to get rid of a vehicle, a boat or some other property under circumstances that seem unusual, take the time to let us know.

http://www.newtonindependent.com/ne...-help-in-finding-missing-evansdale-girls.html

After all this time, if someone has suspicions about a person possibly being involved in this terrible crime, yet hasn't come forward with that info, releasing COD or other info isn't going to do anything to change that. JMO.

 

[threecrazykids]

In many ways we agree, I had posted earlier that it seems cases with "close to home" suspects do seem as they would be harder to prove. However with THIS family I have looked at it long and hard and I can't see a motive. Why would someone in the family kill both of the girls? I have never given much credence to the whole Dan/revenge plot, it just doesn't seem plausible imo. What on earth could they possible gain that would make the killing of two children a viable act? Maybe I am naive, but the killing of a child is against our strongest, most basic instincts. Maybe I just don't want to face that someone they loved would have killed them. But in the end it just doesn't seem plausible. My take on the apparent lack of DNA match is the opposite of yours, I think they have DNA but no one to match to or it non-recoverable.
I believe it is a simple case. Random and Impulse. I respect the opinions of all and sometimes I am just plain on the fence. With this case I always felt like it was random. Now, I could be eating some SERIOUS crow before too long, but alas, it wouldn't be the first time. If not for the Dan issue who else in the family do you think would do such a thing? And for what reason? I honestly am interested.

I am not sold on the familial connection either. And I agree with you 100% on the DNA...a completely random perp isn't going to match either, and that is a VERY strong possibility. I guess my point was if they had everything else they needed, as far as motive, method, etc. and the DNA WAS familial, it could be somewhat hard to prove, even if they had the DNA.

I am so torn in this case, because on one hand it could be very complicated and all of us will be thinking "what the hell?" when an arrest is made...while on the other hand, I think it could just as easily (for some) go in the direction of "wow...what took them so long to make that arrest...I had it figured out months ago".

I am sure there are people here who can come up with motive in the family to be responsible. We aren't allowed to discuss it, but LE has stated the PARENTS aren't suspects so we have to respect that.
Whether or not that ends up being a big fat lie is yet to be determined.

I really hope that ends up not being the case though...imagining this happening to any child is horrific enough...let alone it happening at the hands of someone who the girls loved and trusted.

 

[Bootsctr]

I wonder if there is a meaning behind how far apart the bodies were placed.
the same as if there was a blanket or not over the bodies.
They say if a blanket was over them that is more likely to be someone who knew the girls
I wonder if they left the bodies apart means that they did not know them
If they did know them they may have left them close together.
Just a thought.

The first pair of girls featured on "Dark Minds" Wednesday night were strangled and stacked on top of each other covered with branches.

The second pair of girls were next to each other, not covered, tall grass had grown up around them. All 4 girls were older teens, not as young as Lyric and Elizabeth, plus these two cases happened at night. Lyric and Elizabeth abducted in broad daylight - or so it would seem.

Why would the girls get into a vehicle with a complete stranger? Theory offered was there is safety in numbers. Because there were 2 of them, the girls felt safe getting into the vehicle. The first set of girls disappeared on a cold rainy night walking to a family member's house. Probably took the ride because of the rain and they were together. Once inside the car, the perp has jimmied the door handles. They work on the outside, but can't use them once inside the car - they don't work.

It was speculated he took the girls deep into the wooded area. Told them they would be okay, just going to take one into the woods for sex. Everything will be okay if they comply (not so sure I agree on this point). He takes 1 girl, rapes and kills her. Comes back for the 2nd one, she realizes he's alone and puts up a fight. He strangles her too, but no rape because of the first girl. DNA was recovered. Investigators are hoping to match it to Bobby Jack Fowler.

Doesn't bury them for risk of leaving/dropping something (lighter, flashlight, cigarettes) that could lead back to him.

 

[threecrazykids]

While the inquisitive part of me wishes LE would give us more info, there really isn't any reason for them to do so. As an "armchair detective", I'd like to know cause of death/manner of death, how long the girls' bodies had been at 7 Bridges, etc. But IMO, releasing that info to the public would not do anything to help locate the killer(s) of these two little girls.

Let's say LE told us the girls had been shot. Now what? Would the community feel safer by knowing this? I don't think so. Would the info generate any more tips? Unlikely, IMO. So why release that info, other than to satisfy the public's curiosity? Again, JMO, and I am fully aware that many of you will disagree with me.:what:

Regarding the need for community involvement, I don't see how that pertains to a murder investigation. JMO. The public has been advised what to look for, and LE says tips have come in. So the community does seem to be involved.

Here is part what DCI told us at the three month anniversary:

Perhaps you know someone that has raised your suspicion for some reason that you can't quite explain. Don't ignore your natural instincts - they can be very valuable. If you know someone that has had an abrupt, significant, and unexplained change of behavior, or suddenly decided to get rid of a vehicle, a boat or some other property under circumstances that seem unusual, take the time to let us know.

http://www.newtonindependent.com/ne...-help-in-finding-missing-evansdale-girls.html

After all this time, if someone has suspicions about a person possibly being involved in this terrible crime, yet hasn't come forward with that info, releasing COD or other info isn't going to do anything to change that. JMO.

I do agree with you...I'm not sure anything is going to bring anyone forward at this point. Sad, really.

The only hope I would have, would be that IF they did say the girls were shot...that maybe this person knows they had a gun that was moved, used, borrowed, etc....and they would be afraid the crime would somehow be tied to THEM, so they come forward and say "hey...now that I know the girls were shot I can tell you who was in my home, who could have taken it, etc."

Maybe this person has suspicions of a gun being used, but are holding out on this person (if it's a family member) hoping COD would be strangulation or something and would clear their conscious that they used their gun to commit the crime.

I don't know...wishful thinking I'm sure.

 

[threecrazykids]

The first pair of girls featured on "Dark Minds" Wednesday night were strangled and stacked on top of each other covered with branches.

The second pair of girls were next to each other, not covered, tall grass had grown up around them. All 4 girls were older teens, not as young as Lyric and Elizabeth, plus these two cases happened at night. Lyric and Elizabeth abducted in broad daylight - or so it would seem.

Why would the girls get into a vehicle with a complete stranger? Theory offered was there is safety in numbers. Because there were 2 of them, the girls felt safe getting into the vehicle. The first set of girls disappeared on a cold rainy night walking to a family member's house. Probably took the ride because of the rain and they were together. Once inside the car, the perp has jimmied the door handles. They work on the outside, but can't use them once inside the car - they don't work.

It was speculated he took the girls deep into the wooded area. Told them they would be okay, just going to take one into the woods for sex. Everything will be okay if they comply (not so sure I agree on this point). He takes 1 girl, rapes and kills her. Comes back for the 2nd one, she realizes he's alone and puts up a fight. He strangles her too, but no rape because of the first girl. DNA was recovered. Investigators are hoping to match it to Bobby Jack Fowler.

Doesn't bury them for risk of leaving/dropping something (lighter, flashlight, cigarettes) that could lead back to him.

uke:

 

[Marilynilpa]

I do agree with you...I'm not sure anything is going to bring anyone forward at this point. Sad, really.

The only hope I would have, would be that IF they did say the girls were shot...that maybe this person knows they had a gun that was moved, used, borrowed, etc....and they would be afraid the crime would somehow be tied to THEM, so they come forward and say "hey...now that I know the girls were shot I can tell you who was in my home, who could have taken it, etc."

Maybe this person has suspicions of a gun being used, but are holding out on this person (if it's a family member) hoping COD would be strangulation or something and would clear their conscious that they used their gun to commit the crime.

I don't know...wishful thinking I'm sure.

That's possible but IMO, if someone has serious suspicions and still hasn't come forward after all this time, I'm not sure their conscience would compel them to do so at this point.

I understand your point, though.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I recently watched a show about a true crime that went unsolved for 30 plus years.

The only reason it was solved is that someone stated one of the girls was shot in the face.

This detail was never released so 30 years later it led directly to an arrest and conviction.

 

[threecrazykids]

I recently watched a show about a true crime that went unsolved for 30 plus years.

The only reason it was solved is that someone stated one of the girls was shot in the face.

This detail was never released so 30 years later it led directly to an arrest and conviction.

I've heard of this happening in the past and it simply amazes me. The same type of situation happened here in Iowa with Casey Fredrickson in the Evelyn Miller case. He had made a comment in jail about something only LE knew and it caused his arrest.

How can this possibly stand up in court though? How can a case be tried and convicted on that? I mean there are only so many ways a person can kill another...with shooting, stabbing, strangulation, drugging being probably the top 4. If they randomly say "yeah, they were shot"...and they HAPPEN to be right, how does that prove they were guilty?

I completely get what you're saying...I just don't know how they can honestly convict someone on something they said. And if that piece of information gets thrown out on a technicality (say it was illegally obtained) then what?

I don't know why, but for some reason the "they said something only LE knew" card just chaps my behind.

Now, if they go into DETAIL about how they were killed, that is different...but just saying "the girls were shot" is probably the most vague comment and I can't believe they actually would arrest someone on that...but hey, weirder things have happened I suppose.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I would think that if some random person called up LE and said "I did it"...It wouldn't take much for LE to eliminate them or arrest them. If there is no other evidence connecting them to the case, then they are obviously an attention-seeking nutjob. I don't really get the idea of not releasing information because then they can't use that information to nab the perp. Like if they don't release COD, and someone says they did it, and says the girls were shot, and that ends up being true...Wouldn't LE need more than to link the person to the case? It could just be a lucky guess....

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Can anyone think of a murder investigation (not missing person case) where LE actively released information about the case to the media/public? Not ones where the media found out information through Sunshine laws or leaks...

 

[SapphireSteel]

Can anyone think of a murder investigation (not missing person case) where LE actively released information about the case to the media/public? Not ones where the media found out information through Sunshine laws or leaks...

Jessica Ridgeway
Jonbenet Ramsey
Jillian Meagher
Zodiac
BTK
Green River Killer

I could go on...

 

[Bootsctr]

Can anyone think of a murder investigation (not missing person case) where LE actively released information about the case to the media/public? Not ones where the media found out information through Sunshine laws or leaks...

Jessica Ridgeway ?