IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #29

[daisynae]

Preaching the obvious over and over without anything new for months,
gets very stale and is ineffective. Stretched to its limits, the public
finds new leadership it believes might do a better job.

What sort of community involvement is there in a murder investigation?

The sort that releases a few basic facts people can live and work with.
This isn't rocket science and it certainly is not a Police State where the
Truth has to be traded in back alleys and in secret, on some pretense that
LE really is doing their jobs, has a few well guarded facts it must protect
... with citizens left to their own devices trying to protect themselves from
'something LE can't talk about' ?

Prosecutors don't need community involvement. ??? Since when!? :what:

Everyone in the community is a potential suspect. ??? Really? :what: That's
total nonsense and not even statistically defensible. But it is a good
excuse for not releasing information especially if you have none! :waitasec:

Point is there has to be a balance! Otherwise people who do abduct
children can think they can get away with it in the first place.

There has to be some balance, otherwise it's LE versus criminals, with the
general public mere spectators and victims and people get what the
lottery gives them, since they are so highly irrelevant, in the first place.

If you have something tangible, I would like to hear and see it! Let's
start with the Cause of Death. Surely knowing just that is not going to
cause the sky to fall and the Barbarians storm the gate ? (unless of course
the COD involves some rare isotope of Californium manufactured only by
three guys on Pluto ?) !

:banghead:

Unless someone had life insurance out on one of the kids and they will not name the COD because there is a suspect.
They can not collect unless there is a Cause Of Death.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Unless someone had life insurance out on one of the kids and they will not name the COD because there is a suspect.
They can not collect unless there is a Cause Of Death.

That would look an awful lot like a motive, if true.

 

[BunnyHop]

Unless someone had life insurance out on one of the kids and they will not name the COD because there is a suspect.
They can not collect unless there is a Cause Of Death.

:goodpost:

 

[Bootsctr]

Life insurance policy? First I've heard of a life insurance policy on either of the girls. That would definitely make family members suspect. . .

I believe the COD is not being released because it is something only the killer and LE will know. I do think COD could not definitely be determined. I suspect the decomposition of the bodies being left in the elements for five months makes COD difficult to determine. Gun shot to head - easily determined. Strangulation or suffocation - not so easy after five months of decomposition unless the killer left a ligature - which is very, very doubtful.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It is my gut feeling the girls were shot.

I believe they were still alive when taken to 7 bridges, and that they were trying to run away at the time, which explains the large distance between the two.

Either that or there were two perps who separated them.

 

[Bootsctr]

I watched Dark Minds! Raised the hair on my head! Phelps definitely raises a lot of the same questions we have!!

The interview with "Raven" and his response to why not bury the bodies was definitely not the answer I was expecting. He did not bury the body because of the danger of leaving evidence behind. Ummm, when "Raven" stated he had to dig up a body to get the flashlight he had dropped was definitely eye-opening for me. It isn't that the killer is lazy, he just wants to get away from the body ASAP! The next person who comes in contact with the body is a suspect, per "Raven" Getting inside the head of a serial killer is scary. When he talked about strangling someone, it was very hard to listen too. You could hear in his voice, to me anyway, he was reliving the murder. "Raven" scares me. I hope he never escapes. Would love to know who he is, but of course I'm sure he would like for us to know too. He sounds like he has quite the ego. Looking forward to your thoughts very much NeverLetGo and Marilyn and anyone else who saw the episode of the Coastal Killer!

I thought the representation of the bodies and their condition after being left in the open for many months was accurate. The producers did a good job. In fact, the two girls left in the woods, not buried, that showed bodies pretty much intact with grass that had grown over the bodies, but dead because it was winter was pretty much how I imagined Lyric and Elizabeth's bodies to be found. Pretty much skeletal, but still some skin and clothes still recognizable. Quite chilling!

 

[threecrazykids]

I still don't understand how releasing the COD is going to put an investigation in jeopardy.

Why does it matter if this person shot, strangled, drugged, etc. the girls? How does the public knowing that interfere with the investigation? I'm not saying it doesn't and there isn't a valid reason, I honestly don't know.

It's not like it's going to change who did it or how they did it so why is it a secret?

They say "we're not releasing this because it's something only the killer would know".

Um...:waitasec: haven't they been stating all along that they are confident that someone out there knows who took these girls and knows they have the pertinent information that would bring justice to the killer?

They've gone as far as making sure this person knows that an arrest would be made and the payout of the reward would be immediate. :waitasec:

I think the reason they aren't releasing it is because, just like every other thing in this case, they don't know. They may know little things. Little things that when you put it all together doesn't mean squat. But they don't know the big things....the things that matter.

Everyone knows my stance on how LE has APPEARED to handle this.

They could make an arrest today and surprise the pants right off me...but I'm not holding my breath on that.

What is the reason LE doesn't want to reveal COD? What is the risk of releasing it if only LE and the perp know? What would change if the public was aware that the girls had been shot? Or what would change if we knew they were strangled?:waitasec:

 

[otto]

I still don't understand how releasing the COD is going to put an investigation in jeopardy.

Why does it matter if this person shot, strangled, drugged, etc. the girls? How does the public knowing that interfere with the investigation? I'm not saying it doesn't and there isn't a valid reason, I honestly don't know.

It's not like it's going to change who did it or how they did it so why is it a secret?

They say "we're not releasing this because it's something only the killer would know".

Um...:waitasec: haven't they been stating all along that they are confident that someone out there knows who took these girls and knows they have the pertinent information that would bring justice to the killer?

They've gone as far as making sure this person knows that an arrest would be made and the payout of the reward would be immediate. :waitasec:

I think the reason they aren't releasing it is because, just like every other thing in this case, they don't know. They may know little things. Little things that when you put it all together doesn't mean squat. But they don't know the big things....the things that matter.

Everyone knows my stance on how LE has APPEARED to handle this.

They could make an arrest today and surprise the pants right off me...but I'm not holding my breath on that.

What is the reason LE doesn't want to reveal COD? What is the risk of releasing it if only LE and the perp know? What would change if the public was aware that the girls had been shot? Or what would change if we knew they were strangled?:waitasec:

BBM

If that were true, then the cause of death would always be released, regardless of whether there was an ongoing, active investigation, and the only reason that cause of death would not be released is if police have no information on the cause of death.

Does that sound right? Should all information about an active investigation be released to the public?

It wouldn't be surprising if the cause of death is unknown, given that the bodies may have been decomposing and skeletonized in the five months that they may have been exposed in the park. Should police make a statement that the cause of death is unknown? If they did, we would know that the children had been dead for 5 months, that there was no evidence of a weapon and we could probably deduce more information as well. How would that move the investigation forward? Is the need to know information about the cause of death based on personal curiosity, or is there an investigative reason that the information should be released?

 

[alliemay]

I am hoping they know COD. If they know it and they are not releasing it, it could be because the family has requested that they do not want to know. Another reason, sometimes you have wack jobs that admit to crimes when in fact that did not commit a crime. For whatever reason, 15 minutes of fame, maybe they want three square meals a day and a place to sleep because they have no where to go? If someone where to confess to a crime certain things would have to make sense with their confession in relation to the actual crime. Just a thought. In thinking with my theory that things had to be convenient for the person, strangulation would the quickest and easiest for him. And also one that would not be readily seen after five months in the elements. IMO

 

[Bootsctr]

I still don't understand how releasing the COD is going to put an investigation in jeopardy.

Why does it matter if this person shot, strangled, drugged, etc. the girls? How does the public knowing that interfere with the investigation? I'm not saying it doesn't and there isn't a valid reason, I honestly don't know.

It's not like it's going to change who did it or how they did it so why is it a secret?

They say "we're not releasing this because it's something only the killer would know".

Um...:waitasec: haven't they been stating all along that they are confident that someone out there knows who took these girls and knows they have the pertinent information that would bring justice to the killer?

They've gone as far as making sure this person knows that an arrest would be made and the payout of the reward would be immediate. :waitasec:

I think the reason they aren't releasing it is because, just like every other thing in this case, they don't know. They may know little things. Little things that when you put it all together doesn't mean squat. But they don't know the big things....the things that matter.

Everyone knows my stance on how LE has APPEARED to handle this.

They could make an arrest today and surprise the pants right off me...but I'm not holding my breath on that.

What is the reason LE doesn't want to reveal COD? What is the risk of releasing it if only LE and the perp know? What would change if the public was aware that the girls had been shot? Or what would change if we knew they were strangled?:waitasec:

Very good questions! I really don't know what difference it would make if they told us if the girls had been strangled or shot either! Honestly, I don't think they are releasing the COD because LE is not sure what the COD is. That means I don't think the girls were shot, so it must be strangulation or suffocation - JMO!

There was a case here in Texas of a nurse who was killed. Her COD was not released either. Her body was found the side of the road by passer by. She was completely naked and LE said she had been posed. Her legs were folded like Indian-style. It sounded like a very weird pose to me. In the end, the husband was the one who had killed her, but he had help. LE was able to break the accomplice. He told everything and the reason the lady's body was in the position it was in was because the husband had stuffed her in a trunk. It was the only way they could fit her into this trunk. By the time they dumped her on the roadside I guess rigor mortis had set in and they couldn't re-position the legs. Any, point is, they did not release this woman's COD until they had solved the case. I don't understand why they did not release this woman's COD either. I mean the information only the killer, the accomplice and LE knew that maybe she was not really posed, but they put the information out that she was posed. It's a mystery and it doesn't bring us any closer to knowing how our girls were murdered! :banghead::furious:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I am hoping they know COD. If they know it and they are not releasing it, it could be because the family has requested that they do not want to know. Another reason, sometimes you have wack jobs that admit to crimes when in fact that did not commit a crime. For whatever reason, 15 minutes of fame, maybe they want three square meals a day and a place to sleep because they have no where to go? If someone where to confess to a crime certain things would have to make sense with their confession in relation to the actual crime. Just a thought. In thinking with my theory that things had to be convenient for the person, strangulation would the quickest and easiest for him. And also one that would not be readily seen after five months in the elements. IMO

Who confesses to a crime they didn't commit---to get shelter and food? Especially one that will send them to jail for the rest of their life. There are homeless shelters out there. Anyway, I would hope that if some random person confessed, LE wouldn't just take them at face value, and would actually see how they connected to the evidence. And I really hope they wouldn't just send this person off to trial. False confessions happen a lot, but most LE agencies don't commit "John Mark Karr" blunders over them.

 

[threecrazykids]

BBM

If that were true, then the cause of death would always be released, regardless of whether there was an ongoing, active investigation, and the only reason that cause of death would not be released is if police have no information on the cause of death.

Does that sound right? Should all information about an active investigation be released to the public?

It wouldn't be surprising if the cause of death is unknown, given that the bodies may have been decomposing and skeletonized in the five months that they may have been exposed in the park. Should police make a statement that the cause of death is unknown? If they did, we would know that the children had been dead for 5 months, that there was no evidence of a weapon and we could probably deduce more information as well. How would that move the investigation forward? Is the need to know information about the cause of death based on personal curiosity, or is there an investigative reason that the information should be released?

Knowing the cause of death (for ex. say gunshot) could prompt a person who knew of someone who may have appeared to be "off" during the investigation to call in if they know they had recently bought a gun.
Or if someone they knew always had a gun and it suddenly was sold or lost or something of the sort, or even that they'd always been interested in guns and now appears to have a sudden disinterest in them.

Maybe even a younger person who is fascinated by weaponry.

I know you and I differ as far as faith and trust in LE. You've got faith that they are just keeping all this information close to the vest. That they are building their case and are just around the corner from an arrest.

I don't believe that. So yes, I guess it could be considered "curiosity", since I think that the more LE releases, the more pressure the killer (and moreso this mystery person that knows and won't come forward) feels. That LE is right on their heels and it's just a matter of making that connection. I feel that silence only helps these killers. The longer and quieter it gets the more comfortable these people get...and it could very well happen again.

I personally don't feel that LE is withholding info because they are building their case (regardless of what they are saying in press conferences, updates, etc).

I think they aren't releasing anything because what little they have is already out there and they are living on this fleeting hope that some mystery witness is going to come forward eventually. I fear they have nothing that's going to stand up in court. That, and they are waiting for the killer to run their mouth.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope TT, Abben, Smock, the FBI, and the whole shebang all get together today and make that arrest. I hope they have a case so iron clad that there isn't a chance in hell they could be found not guilty.

I hope today is the day that LE proves to me that my lack of faith is all for naught.

 

[daisynae]

I wonder if there is a meaning behind how far apart the bodies were placed.
the same as if there was a blanket or not over the bodies.
They say if a blanket was over them that is more likely to be someone who knew the girls
I wonder if they left the bodies apart means that they did not know them
If they did know them they may have left them close together.
Just a thought.

 

[threecrazykids]

I wonder if there is a meaning behind how far apart the bodies were placed.
the same as if there was a blanket or not over the bodies.
They say if a blanket was over them that is more likely to be someone who knew the girls
I wonder if they left the bodies apart means that they did not know them
If they did know them they may have left them close together.
Just a thought.

I know there has been discussions about this in past threads. Some people speculated the killer let them loose to run away and shot them as they ran. Others thought maybe the killer was carrying their bodies in under the cover of night one by one and just got tired the second trip in. Others thought maybe 2 perps were involved, hence the separation. Lots of different ideas tossed around.

I don't think they were covered, but what do I know? :floorlaugh:

I do wonder though if their bodies were intact. I believe they were, but during the Jessica Ridgeway coverage people claimed to be able to tell right away that what was discovered first was just her torso. :shakehead: I'm not sure how it was determined, but they were right. I couldn't tell just by looking at the white sheet over it, but others could.

From what I've seen in the pictures it LOOKS like a full length body, but again...who knows what's under those sheets. I just have a feeling they were killed and dumped. I don't think they were dismembered, but that's :moo:

 

[shoregirl]

My feeling is that leads are dwindling in this case. I'm not even sure LE knows the COD. They probably have very good suspicions, but after 5 months in the elements if COD is strangulation it would be very hard to determine. A broken hyoid bone would be a good indicator, but I'm assuming there could have been some scattering of the remains. Last week's episode of Dark Minds focused on 5 murders. The second victim was found three months after she was murdered and ME was not able to give exact COD becasue of the body's condition. They showed a copy of the newspaper article and the child's body was described as skeletal remains. We don't even have this with Lyric and Elizabeth. We were told bodies. I'm not sure where this leaves us anywhere but in the cold. Praying this is not the case! lease:

I am great beleiver in the simpliest answer probably being he truth. I hope this is not the case though. So frustrating.

 

[carbuff]

Who confesses to a crime they didn't commit---to get shelter and food? Especially one that will send them to jail for the rest of their life. There are homeless shelters out there. Anyway, I would hope that if some random person confessed, LE wouldn't just take them at face value, and would actually see how they connected to the evidence. And I really hope they wouldn't just send this person off to trial. False confessions happen a lot, but most LE agencies don't commit "John Mark Karr" blunders over them.

bbm -- And this is one reason why they release as little information as possible. The more information they release, the more accurately various nutjobs can tailor their stories, and the more difficult it is for LE to eliminate them as nutjobs. The more difficult the task, the more LE resources get used up just dealing with them, and the fewer resources available for real investigation.

 

[shoregirl]

Knowing the cause of death (for ex. say gunshot) could prompt a person who knew of someone who may have appeared to be "off" during the investigation to call in if they know they had recently bought a gun.
Or if someone they knew always had a gun and it suddenly was sold or lost or something of the sort, or even that they'd always been interested in guns and now appears to have a sudden disinterest in them.

Maybe even a younger person who is fascinated by weaponry.

I know you and I differ as far as faith and trust in LE. You've got faith that they are just keeping all this information close to the vest. That they are building their case and are just around the corner from an arrest.

I don't believe that. So yes, I guess it could be considered "curiosity", since I think that the more LE releases, the more pressure the killer (and moreso this mystery person that knows and won't come forward) feels. That LE is right on their heels and it's just a matter of making that connection. I feel that silence only helps these killers. The longer and quieter it gets the more comfortable these people get...and it could very well happen again.

I personally don't feel that LE is withholding info because they are building their case (regardless of what they are saying in press conferences, updates, etc).

I think they aren't releasing anything because what little they have is already out there and they are living on this fleeting hope that some mystery witness is going to come forward eventually. I fear they have nothing that's going to stand up in court. That, and they are waiting for the killer to run their mouth.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope TT, Abben, Smock, the FBI, and the whole shebang all get together today and make that arrest. I hope they have a case so iron clad that there isn't a chance in hell they could be found not guilty.

I hope today is the day that LE proves to me that my lack of faith is all for naught.

Great points. Especially the fact that knowing the COD may prompt a potential witness to turn someone in. In the past couple of years the cases where it is suspected the perp is someone very close to the victim are the ones that hardest to prove.....Cummings, Irwin, Celis etc. I suppose because the DNA evidence would be moot when family is involved. Just thinking outloud

 

[shoregirl]

bbm -- And this is one reason why they release as little information as possible. The more information they release, the more accurately various nutjobs can tailor their stories, and the more difficult it is for LE to eliminate them as nutjobs. The more difficult the task, the more LE resources get used up just dealing with them, and the fewer resources available for real investigation.

I hadn't thought of that. Great point.

 

[shoregirl]

Unless someone had life insurance out on one of the kids and they will not name the COD because there is a suspect.
They can not collect unless there is a Cause Of Death.

That would mean family. One of the first things investigated is who will profit from this death. It would be a pretty elaborate scheme and I don't think any of them could pull it off.

 

[threecrazykids]

bbm -- And this is one reason why they release as little information as possible. The more information they release, the more accurately various nutjobs can tailor their stories, and the more difficult it is for LE to eliminate them as nutjobs. The more difficult the task, the more LE resources get used up just dealing with them, and the fewer resources available for real investigation.

Very good point. This could be one reason LE isn't releasing information. I guess I just can't think in the same mindset as the nutjobs who want to stake claim on such a horrific crime. If going to prison is their MO, then I'd be finding something ELSE to say I'm guilty of, because even in prison, any crimes committed against children is a reason to fear for your life.