IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

[margarita25]

I still believe Klunder is a very, very viable suspect. JMO.

 

[Bootsctr]

RodgerD said, "This is just not the work of someone who did not know 7 bridges park. Sorry. This is someone who knew the park well and had been there several times in the past."

Klunder may have been familiar with the park at one time or another because,

"Investigators say they are looking into whether Klunder could be linked to the slaying of two cousins, ages 8 and 10, who vanished last summer while riding bikes in Evansdale. In the 1980s, records show he lived at a residential treatment center for emotionally troubled children in Bremer County, where the cousins’ bodies were found in December."

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/ne...cle_1042c3a8-c1fa-11e2-8e63-0019bb2963f4.html

Yes, thank you Sunshine! Klunder was familiar with 7-Bridges, but the way RodgerD describes the area, someone would have to have been free to roam to explore the area to not get lost. I don't think Klunder would have been free to roam under a residential treatment center for emotionally troubled children when they were on field trips, outings, camp-outs, etc. I doubt he could have paid attention at the time he was a teen in the home to remember the way to get to 7-Bridges - maybe? LE has always said this is someone "close to home" and I think that is what they mean - home being 7-Bridges and Meyers Lake.

 

[threecrazykids]

Whomever said "bull in a china shop" is hitting me like a ton of bricks right now - :banghead: He was not mentally capable of planning an abduction. He only knew one way to get his victims, snatch them when you see them. I feel that if he had planned Kathlynn and D's abduction even a little, he might have gotten away with their murders too. He didn't even have the patience or the mental capacity. The person who killed Elizabeth and Lyric was very methodical. I would say probably has a higher IQ than the average RSO.

YES!!
IMO the closer you are with your victim (and they you) the less "smart" you have to be about it.

I think getting them alone is 99% of the "problem" that any perp encounters. Once they have them alone (in a vehicle, house, etc) then the worries subside for a bit while the crime occurs. It's all about them having the power, control, sick fetish fulfillment, etc. :sick:

Then, once the crime is committed they go back to worrying about the cover up.

I don't think think the person had to necessarily be a genius. They just had to have a couple things fall into place. 1. The girls at the right place at the right time and 2. a place to dispose of their bodies. Which, for all we know could have taken place under the cover of night the first night they were missing...or hell weeks/months later.

 

[carbuff]

Whomever said "bull in a china shop" is hitting me like a ton of bricks right now - :banghead: He was not mentally capable of planning an abduction. The only thing different in this crime than the previous ones was that he did lure the girls with telling them if they wanted to make some money - not very sophisticated, but it worked. Previously, he knew one way to get his victims, snatch them when you see them. I feel that if he had planned Kathlynn and D's abduction even a little, he might have gotten away with their murders too. He didn't even have the patience or the mental capacity. The person who killed Elizabeth and Lyric was very methodical. I would say probably has a higher IQ than the average RSO.

I don't quite see that it had to be methodical. Whether it was Klunder or somebody else, it seems like he saw two girls at the lake, grabbed them, did whatever he did, and left their bodies in an isolated spot. No planning necessary.

Planning could have happened, of course. But based on the evidence we have, it wouldn't have had to be a well-planned crime.

 

[Bootsctr]

Agreed, absolutely did not have to be a genius. Being familiar with the victim, I think is the key here to L&E. We know there are regular joggers and bicyclists that use the trail around Meyers Lake. I would expect these people to immediately notice something off/different, unfamiliar in their usual routes. We know people close to the lake knew Elizabeth because she visited there often. To me, the girls rode with a purpose that day. Wouldn't a person who regularly visited Meyers Lake have noticed a vehicle parked right there just a few feet from where the girls were supposedly taken if someone was just waiting? I think the person that took them knew that area was invisible from the highway, and it was not Klunder.

 

[carbuff]

Agreed, absolutely did not have to be a genius. Being familiar with the victim, I think is the key here to L&E. We know there are regular joggers and bicyclists that use the trail around Meyers Lake. I would expect these people to immediately notice something off/different, unfamiliar in their usual routes. We know people close to the lake knew Elizabeth because she visited there often. To me, the girls rode with a purpose that day. Wouldn't a person who regularly visited Meyers Lake have noticed a vehicle parked right there just a few feet from where the girls were taken if someone was just waiting? I think the person that took them knew that area was invisible from the highway.

Reading statements from serial killers and other such predators indicates that whatever their level of intelligence, they're very good at spotting places like that and identifying likely victims in places where they aren't likely to be spotted. So just driving around the lake might have told him, whoever he was, all he needs to know.

 

[Bootsctr]

Reading statements from serial killers and other such predators indicates that whatever their level of intelligence, they're very good at spotting places like that and identifying likely victims in places where they aren't likely to be spotted. So just driving around the lake might have told him, whoever he was, all he needs to know.

Okay. But, I don't think he would have been able to find 7-Bridges easily, even if he had been there as a teen. How busy is a hog farmer ? I mean supposedly Klunder was running several facilities. I would assume that it is hard labor, not exactly an easy job. Is it a 7-day a week job? I agree, his occupation might have given him ample places to store bodies for a while, but was Klunder that bold? Do hog confinements contain freezer storage? I think Klunder was not worried about Kathlynn's blood at first because a large amount of blood might not mean a lot at a hog facility. Someone who happened upon the blood might just think "oh well, so-and-so butchered a hog today." ??

 

[carbuff]

Okay. But, I don't think he would have been able to find 7-Bridges easily, even if he had been there as a teen. How busy is a hog farmer ? I mean supposedly Klunder was running several facilities. I would assume that it is hard labor, not exactly an easy job. Is it a 7-day a week job? I agree, his occupation might have given him ample places to store bodies for a while, but was Klunder that bold? Do hog confinements contain freezer storage? I think Klunder was not worried about Kathlynn's blood at first because a large amount of blood might not mean a lot at a hog facility. Someone who happened upon the blood might just think "oh well, so-and-so butchered a hog today." ??

I imagine he's pretty busy, but on the other hand, several facilities means he always has an excuse for being on the road and going through some town or another. Also, he'd have a lot of control over his own schedule.

He would certainly know how to kill quickly and efficiently. And he looks more than big enough to sling a couple of preteen girls around.

I dunno. He could be. But there's certainly evidence that argues against him.

 

[Foxfire]

Imo, MJK endured more than one psychological evaluation as a juvenile, as well as during his adult prison incarceration. Until more information is released on him, it would be virtually impossible to estimate or determine his IQ, imo..

Many, if not most sexual predators/serial killers have another self; good Michael/bad(evil) Michael.. Imo, in the trial video posted in a prior comment, MJK exposes his other self in his eyes & facial expressions.

With the exception of his victim profile, MJK has many parallels with Serial Killer Edmund Emil Kemper III; the gentle giant..imo...
(sniped/BBM)
http://www.karisable.com/skazkemper.htm

Edmund Emil Kemper III was born December 18, 1948, Santa Cruz, California. After his parents divorced when he was 9, Kemper lived with a domineering mother named Clarnell. She had strict standards and doled out brutal punishment when he failed to comply. She locked him in the basement for long periods of time. His hatred toward his mother grew and fantasized about killing her. He was afraid of his peers, and had problems making friends. He enjoyed pretending he was in a gas chamber with his two sisters. Edmund buried the family's pet cat up to its neck; he then kept its severed head as a trophy. His mother replaced the cat. Edmund massacred the new cat with his machete and kept the pieces his bedroom closet where they were found by his mother.

His own mother referred to him as a “weirdo.” After not being able to live get along in his mother's home and his father, Ed Jr. and stepmother's home, at age 13, he moved in with his paternal grandparents on a rural North Folk, California ranch.
He didn't get along with his grandmother. His mother was concerned he may harm her ex-husband's parents. On August 27, 1964, at age 14, following an argument, he shot his grandmother in the back of her head while she sat at the kitchen table working on a children's book, then mutilated her with a kitchen knife. When his grandfather returned from the store, he shot him on the porch and left his body in the yard. After he phoned his mother he called the police to explain he just wanted to see how it felt to kill grandma.

Kemper was committed to Atascadero State Hospital. At the age of 21, after he convinced psychologists that he was sane, he was released in Santa Cruz, California, into his mother's custody against the advice of several Atascadero State Hospital psychiatrists. Still a virgin, Kemper used *advertiser censored* and detective magazines for erotic stimulation. His mother who had three failed marriages behind her was an administrative assistant at the University of California at Santa Cruz. She showed more interest and care towards college students than she did her own son.

With an IQ of 120 and imposing size of 6 feet 9 inches and almost 300 pounds, he had violent arguments with his mother and others. His mother put him down and blamed him for her inability to find a boyfriend.
read more-

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Whomever said "bull in a china shop" is hitting me like a ton of bricks right now - :banghead: He was not mentally capable of planning an abduction. The only thing different in this crime than the previous ones was that he did lure the girls with asking them if they wanted to make some money - not very sophisticated, but it worked. Previously, he knew one way to get his victims, snatch them when you see them. I feel that if he had planned Kathlynn and D's abduction even a little, he might have gotten away with their murders too. He didn't even have the patience or the mental capacity. The person who killed Elizabeth and Lyric was very methodical. I would say probably has a higher IQ than the average RSO.

I keep going back and forth on how much preparation went into Elizabeth and Lyric's abduction.

It's natural to think that a crime will go better if it is planned out in advance, that the perp will leave less evidence, etc. The flip side of that, though, is that often what trips a perp up is the pre-planning. If you substitute the term "staging" for planning, then it's easy to come up with many examples of how it was the perp's efforts at staging that actually led to their apprehension.

Some of the most difficult to solve cases that I've read about were spur of the moment impulses on the part of the perp. They didn't try to hide the crime, they just grabbed and got out. And by doing so left much less evidence behind.

 

[Sunlight]

What time were these girls grabbed at the lake?

 

[Foxfire]

Oh, thank you for the explanation! That makes way more sense. I'm all in favor of technology that can be used to help find these people and make everyone else safer. I just couldn't figure out a DNA check at a traffic stop.

I wonder if they knew he was likely to be in this area and selectively chose to have the traffic check at this location just in case.

nikb, times they are a changin....All 50 states have the following capability now...


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_1...rs-critical-but-do-they-violate-your-privacy/

June 22, 2012 6:48 PM
PRINT TEXT
Police call license plate scanners critical, but do they violate your privacy?

ROCKVILLE, Md. - On Maryland Highway 200, Officer Yancey Anthony patrols with two extra sets of eyes. Cameras, mounted on his cruiser's trunk, scan and photograph the license tags of passing cars -- sounding alarms when possible violators are spotted.

The license readers instantly check plates and the names of vehicle owners against registration records, fugitive warrants, and criminal data bases -- giving police critical information.

The camera alerts Officer Anthony to a silver Toyota. He tells the driver that his tags are coming back suspended.

The license readers can scan 1,800 plates a minute -- on cars going as fast as 150 mph.

 

[Bootsctr]

Imo, MJK endured more than one psychological evaluation as a juvenile, as well as during his adult prison incarceration. Until more information is released on him, it would be virtually impossible to estimate or determine his IQ, imo..

Many, if not most sexual predators/serial killers have another self; good Michael/bad(evil) Michael.. Imo, in the trial video posted in a prior comment, MJK exposes his other self in his eyes & facial expressions.

With the exception of his victim profile, MJK has many parallels with Serial Killer Edmund Emil Kemper III; the gentle giant..imo...
(sniped/BBM)
http://www.karisable.com/skazkemper.htm

Edmund Emil Kemper III was born December 18, 1948, Santa Cruz, California. After his parents divorced when he was 9, Kemper lived with a domineering mother named Clarnell. She had strict standards and doled out brutal punishment when he failed to comply. She locked him in the basement for long periods of time. His hatred toward his mother grew and fantasized about killing her. He was afraid of his peers, and had problems making friends. He enjoyed pretending he was in a gas chamber with his two sisters. Edmund buried the family's pet cat up to its neck; he then kept its severed head as a trophy. His mother replaced the cat. Edmund massacred the new cat with his machete and kept the pieces his bedroom closet where they were found by his mother.

His own mother referred to him as a “weirdo.” After not being able to live get along in his mother's home and his father, Ed Jr. and stepmother's home, at age 13, he moved in with his paternal grandparents on a rural North Folk, California ranch.
He didn't get along with his grandmother. His mother was concerned he may harm her ex-husband's parents. On August 27, 1964, at age 14, following an argument, he shot his grandmother in the back of her head while she sat at the kitchen table working on a children's book, then mutilated her with a kitchen knife. When his grandfather returned from the store, he shot him on the porch and left his body in the yard. After he phoned his mother he called the police to explain he just wanted to see how it felt to kill grandma.

Kemper was committed to Atascadero State Hospital. At the age of 21, after he convinced psychologists that he was sane, he was released in Santa Cruz, California, into his mother's custody against the advice of several Atascadero State Hospital psychiatrists. Still a virgin, Kemper used *advertiser censored* and detective magazines for erotic stimulation. His mother who three failed marriages behind her was an administrative assistant at the University of California at Santa Cruz. She showed more interest and care towards college students than she did her son.

With an IQ of 120 and imposing size of 6 feet 9 inches and almost 300 pounds, he had violent arguments with his mother and others. His mother put him down and blamed him for inability to find a boyfriend.
read more-

I just watched this guy's bio. Great example! He also hung out a local bar that LE was known to frequent. LE could not believe it when he was brought in as a suspect. "Big Ed?" He ended up hacking his mother to death in the night, if I remember correctly. "Big Ed" memorized all the answers to the psych tests so he knew the correct answers to give in order to gain release from the mental healthy facility. I think "Big Ed's" mother did not give :twocents: what her son was doing as long as she got some peace.

Klunder had a wife. They were newly weds. She and her family probably wanted to start a family ASAP. A year into the marriage, I just feel Klunder was probably not fulfilling his marital obligations and was hugely distracted by Elizabeth and Lyric's "abduction" and their bodies being found at 7-Bridges. He knew 7-Bridges. He had been there once or twice as a teen ? "Big Ed" preyed upon prostitutes and women who would not be missed as easily as children.

I'm going to give Klunder the benefit of the doubt and say he had no intention of re-committing when he got out of prison. However, married life was not what he expected. He could not dominate or control his wife. His father-in-law and the expectations of full time job were more than he could handle mentally. E&L's abductions and murders excited him, but he did not commit them. They pushed him over the edge and he abducted Kathlynn and D.

 

[Bootsctr]

What time were these girls grabbed at the lake?

Missing Iowa Girls Timeline

July 13

12:15 pm Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook-Morrissey depart their grandmother’s home on bikes. They were heading towards downtown Evansdale.

2 pm- Family members begin searching for the girls after they failed to return home for lunch.

3 pm- Law enforcement begins searching for the girls.

4 pm- The girls’ bikes are located near Meyers Lake. http://www.examiner.com/article/mis...izabeth-collins-and-lyric-cook-morrissey-case

I would say anytime from when they were seen on tape (12:15) until 1:30 or 2:00 when the family began to search for them. :moo: Very interesting link. Contains Iowa missing cold cases.

 

[Bootsctr]

WCF Courier Timeline:

Timeline of Events

12:15 p.m. Friday - The girls are last seen by their grandmother, Wylma Cook, in downtown Evansdale behind Lederman's Big & Tall Clothing, 3524 Lafayette Road.

4 p.m. - The girls' bikes are located along the bike trail on the southeast corner of Meyers Lake by an Evansdale firefighter. Elizabeth's purse, which contained a cell phone, was found nearby.

Saturday and Sunday - Hundreds of volunteers search Meyers Lake and the town of Evansdale for traces of the girls. About 700 people searched on Sunday alone, while businesses and others donated food and water. But no clues were found in their search.

Monday - Authorities begin draining Meyers Lake and stopping residents in Evansdale. Meanwhile, residents post missing flyers around Evansdale and surrounding towns.

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_18411a90-cd32-11e1-a656-0019bb2963f4.html

 

[Foxfire]

http://globegazette.com/news/local/...cle_36b8ec80-db89-11e2-acb2-0019bb2963f4.html
<sniped & BBM>

A timeline of violence: Lulls between Klunder attacks never more than a year

KS, died from multiple sharp and blunt force injuries about the head, according to Iowa State Chief Medical Examiner Julie Goodin.

Those same type of injuries were suffered by his first victim, ELG &#8212; also 15 &#8212; some 27 years before. She had been pistol-whipped about the head by Klunder after he trapped her in a Kensett restroom. Her injuries required she be hospitalized for several days.

* &#8220;The violent nature of the defendant&#8217;s prior offense would indicate that the defendant does constitute a danger to the public,&#8221; said Judge Jon Scoles of the Gansen attack a few years later, when Klunder, 17, was being tried on the choking of a co-worker.

The discovery of Shepard&#8217;s body brought to a close the life of a man whose hallmark was predatory violence.

The majority of Klunder&#8217;s life could be measured by spans in jail, courtrooms, mental institutions and prison cells.

There was never a lull of more than a year following his first incarceration when Klunder did not assault someone, between his release from prison, in 2011, and the Dayton kidnappings in May of this year.

However, authorities aren&#8217;t sure there were not other victims.

&#8220;I have learned that I have victimized not only my victim but also my family and myself,&#8221; he wrote to a judge from prison in 1989, seeking an early release after his incarceration for two serious attacks on females.

He was 18 at the time.

&#8220;I never want to do that again so I will try to make the changes to ensure it won&#8217;t happen again.&#8221;

But it did happen again. Court records and newspaper files show Klunder was found guilty of assaults or kidnappings, or both, five times. He was dead before he faced judgement in the case of the Dayton victims.

Cerro Gordo Sheriff Kevin Pals said he was not sure there weren&#8217;t more victims. Pals did not know Klunder but followed the case over the years. He has been asked to provide copies of records and complaints against Klunder, a Kensett native, to authorities working the Dayton case.

One thing is clear to Pals: Klunder &#8220;was not going to stop.&#8221;

How someone could entice girls into his truck in the era of warnings against strangers is hard to imagine.

&#8220;But he was clever; there was a reason he did what he did, &#8212; because he was that good at what he did&#8221; when it came to abductions, Pals said.

&#8220;He had years of practice,&#8221; he added.

 

[Bootsctr]

After he turned 18 in 1989, Klunder was sentenced for attempted burglary and assault. A judge ordered him to receive sex offender treatment during a prison term of up to five years. He served just over two years before being released in August 1991.

On Dec. 15, 1991, Klunder flashed his lights to get a 22-year-old woman to pull over on a highway outside Mason City and told her that her taillights weren't working. When she got out, he threw her to the ground, got on top of her and threatened that he had a knife, police say. He wrestled her into his car and turned down a gravel road, where the woman waved out the window for help to an oncoming vehicle. Klunder pushed her out of the vehicle and fled.

The next day, Klunder snatched two 3-year-olds from an apartment complex in Charles City. Klunder was angry at one of the toddlers, who was the daughter of a female acquaintance.

Klunder put the girls into a trunk and drove them to a secluded area in Northwood, about 50 miles away, and left them in a trash bin. A county worker found the girls alive hours later. A doctor later found that one girl had been choked.

“My impression is that he was of somewhat limited capacity. He didn't like how the one little girl behaved. Beyond that, I have no idea what motivated him,” said Floyd County Attorney Norm Klemesrud, adding that Klunder was employed at a workshop for the disabled.

Klunder, arrested days later in Houston, pleaded guilty to third-degree kidnapping and one count of willful injury for abducting the toddlers and was sentenced to 30 years in prison. As part of the plea deal, the Iowa Attorney General's Office dropped first-degree kidnapping charges, which carry life in prison.

While the prosecutor who handled the case has retired, “we suspect (she) felt that there may have been a fighting issue as to whether there was a serious or permanent injury on the child, which was needed for a first-degree kidnapping conviction,” spokesman Geoff Greenwood said.

Separately, Klunder was sentenced to 11 more years for the kidnapping and assault of the 22-year-old woman and recommended for more sex offender treatment.

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/ne...cle_1042c3a8-c1fa-11e2-8e63-0019bb2963f4.html

 

[song22]

I've been without reliable computer access the last few days so haven't been able to answer pms or thank so many great posts. I had one quick question. i know that there are strict laws about privacy and mental health care, but what is LE allowed to see that the genral public is not allowed access to? Is it different for them? Do they have any access to Juvenile criminal records or to any mental health records involving commitment associated with crimes? For instance if Klunder was in a facility for troubled youth in bremer county are LE able to see who else was in that facility at the same time?
Someone I worry about in this case was arrested for drug offences at one point and also struggled with ongoing mental health issues. he was in his late teens at the time. would LE be able to see if he was in the same facility at the same time as klunder? TIA

 

[SapphireSteel]

I've been without reliable computer access the last few days so haven't been able to answer pms or thank so many great posts. I had one quick question. i know that there are strict laws about privacy and mental health care, but what is LE allowed to see that the genral public is not allowed access to? Is it different for them? Do they have any access to Juvenile criminal records or to any mental health records involving commitment associated with crimes? For instance if Klunder was in a facility for troubled youth in bremer county are LE able to see who else was in that facility at the same time?
Someone I worry about in this case was arrested for drug offences at one point and also struggled with ongoing mental health issues. he was in his late teens at the time. would LE be able to see if he was in the same facility at the same time as klunder? TIA

That depends entirely on the institution he was in but I would imagine that could be confirmed with a phone call.

Any further details (treatment, medical history etc) will remain private until LE get a court order to release it. As Klunder is now deceased, it is likely the information will be released without court order as long as it doesn't breach anyone elses privacy.

They have probably already done this. :cow:

 

[Bootsctr]

After the age of 16, Michael James Klunder spent less than five years outside of the Iowa corrections system until his suicide on May 20, at age 42.

Michael Klunder Timeline
May 15, 1971 - Michael Klunder born.
November 1986 - Klunder's first known victim - ELG, age 15 years - Klunder's age 15 years. Klunder is sent to the Boys State Training School in Eldora, to
Meyer Hall in Des Moines, to Bremwood (a juvenile home) in Waverly and to the Mental Health Center in Cherokee.
February 1988 &#8212; Klunder is released from juvenile detention. He returns to Mason City and moves in with his father and stepmother.
1989 - The violent nature of the defendant&#8217;s prior offense would indicate that the defendant does constitute a danger to the public,&#8221; said Judge Jon Scoles of the Gansen attack a few years later, when Klunder, 17, was being tried on the choking of a co-worker.
February 1991 &#8212; Klunder is released from Mount Pleasant Treatment Center.
Dec. 15, 1991 - Klunder kidnapped a 21-year-old woman, who escaped.
Dec. 16, 1991 - Klunder kidnapped two 3-year-old girls, who were found alive in a garbage bin.
May 16, 1992 - Klunder&#8217;s son is born.
Dec. 25, 2011 &#8212; Klunder is paroled, having served 18 years of his 41-year sentence.
2012 - Klunder attends one semester of college, marries in Florida, buys house in Stratford, Iowa.
July 13, 2012 - Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins missing.
Dec 2012 - L&E's bodies found.
May 20, 2013 - Kathlynn and D abducted. Kathlynn murdered. Klunder commits suicide.
Friday, June 7 &#8212; Shepard&#8217;s body is found in the Des Moines River. An autopsy shows she died of sharp and blunt-force trauma wounds.

http://globegazette.com/news/local/...cle_b448708a-db89-11e2-bf27-0019bb2963f4.html