IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

[Foxfire]

One big problem with releasing too much information, even if it's not critical, is that you put it in the public's mind that things happened a certain way. And that can prejudice a jury pool in a way that influences their decision.

Certain clues that are otherwise innocent can tip off a killer that the investigation is heading their way. We had an incident of that in Boston a couple of years ago where a TV report gave a man time to escape back to Ecuador, where he's unlikely to be extradited.

Possibly the biggest danger though is mob/vigilante action. We had a couple of instances of that during the serial killer investigation here. There was a man's name leaked as a target; somebody decided to inflict justice and beat up on a different guy with the same name. And it turned out the first guy had nothing to do with the case beyond being another customer of some of the murdered women.

Public safety is not as simple as we tend to think it is. Maybe they could have done differently -- but maybe not. It's all second-guessing.

RE: Public safety is not as simple as we tend to think it is. Maybe they could have done differently -- but maybe not. It's all second-guessing

LE/Public Safety's primary objective is protecting its citizens and the saving of lives by utilizing all available resources, imo....all other objectives are secondary, imo..

carbuff, this same results can happen due to a lack of transparency by investigators. I think it was fairly obvious as to the initial focus by investigators in the L & L investigation. It was days or weeks before investigators concluded that the girls had even been abducted.. Two months after L & L's abduction, investigators stated that they believed them to still be alive.

Twelve months later, a vague description of a vehicle of interest was released by investigators to the public to BOLO. Too little, too late, imo..
L & L's abduction was very high profile and attracted worldwide ms media & social media coverage. This very valuable resource was squandered due to the silence and initial perceived hypothesis by investigators, imo..

Compare the kidnapping of 16 year old Hannah Anderson, by James Lee DiMaggio, in CA, on Monday of this week.. The investigation was conducted very professionally and proactively. The public was kept very well informed and updated by the San Diego Sheriff's Dept.

The vehicle was located today, due to an aware citizen's tip, in Cascade, Idaho, approximately 1,000 miles north of San Diego, CA and roughly 400 miles from the Canadian border.

___________________________________

'This is a very urgent plea for help, complete with adequate information provided by the CA investigative agency to insure success, imo'..

NATIONWIDE AMBER ALERT! SUSPECT CONSIDERED "VERY DANGEROUS", MAY HAVE RIGGED CAR WITH EXPLOSIVES! #AmberAlert for California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Search extends to Mexico and Canada! SHARE!

Amber Alert Issued For 2 Children After Remains Of Mother & Child Found In Suspect’s Burned Home Possibly En Route To #Texas or #Canada

DiMaggio and Anderson are said to have had a close platonic relationship. He is now wanted for murder and arson.

“We need the public’s help in locating these people,” Lt. Glenn Giannantorio said. “We would definitely like to locate the children. We believe that if they are with Mr. DiMaggio, that they in danger.”

The Amber Alert was issued after the children’s grandparents reported them missing.

Hannah is described as having blonde hair and blue eyes. She is 5 feet 7 inches tall and weighs about 115 pounds.

Ethan is described as 4 feet 11 inches tall, weighing about 65 pounds with sandy blonde hair.

DiMaggio, 40, is described as a White male with brown hair, 5 feet 9 inches tall and weighing about 150 pounds.

Authorities believe DiMaggio may be driving a four-door, 2013 Blue Nissan Versa with the California license plate number 6WCU986. They believe he may be headed to Texas or Canada.

Anyone who sees DiMaggio or the children should call 911 immediately.

#URGENT #AmberAlert #Emergency #Abducted #California #SanDiego #Imperial #abduction Share this flier right away at https://www.facebook.com/missingcases/like

MAP - San Diego County: http://goo.gl/maps/l1Mk7

MAP - Imperial County: http://goo.gl/maps/FRWNL

MAP - Boulevard, California: http://goo.gl/maps/U7UWE

SOURCE(s): http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/AmberExternalFCServlet?act=retAmberCase&amberId=11325 and http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013...ains-of-mother-found-in-suspects-burned-home/

Amber Alert - https://www.facebook.com/sdsheriff SDSO FB Link
Updated 4 hours ago
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151754059998340.1073741922.132929273339&type=1

 

[24Roses]

http://www.kwwl.com/story/23097384/...e-conference-raises-awareness-in-cedar-rapids Short article with video about the conference Drew and Heather are attending

 

[Dr. Know?]

Okay, so it's not morning. Following Hannah Anderson's case.

I'm not sure what this update means except Dan's court date has been reschedule. The return of service supoena could be he was supoenaed for another case? Don't take my word for it though. 8/29 will be a closed court room. The motion was approved to keep some of the trial from the public and they got that it appears. Trial reset to 9/13 at 10:30 am.

RETURN OF SERVICE ON SUBPOENA BLACK HAWK COUNTY SHERIFF 08/09/2013 08/09/2013 08/09/2013
Comments: B NICHOLAS
RETURN OF SERVICE ON SUBPOENA BLACK HAWK COUNTY SHERIFF 08/09/2013 08/09/2013 08/09/2013
Comments: BHCS
ORDER SETTING HEARING STAUDT DAVID F 08/07/2013 08/09/2013 08/09/2013
Comments: MOTION TO CLOSE CT ROOM 8/29/13 @ 9 AM & SENT RESET TO
9/13/13 @ 10:30 AM

https://www.iowacourts.state.ia.us/ESAWebApp/DefaultFrame

 

[Foxfire]

http://www.kwwl.com/story/23097384/...e-conference-raises-awareness-in-cedar-rapids Short article with video about the conference Drew and Heather are attending

Thanx for sharing, 24Roses.. Thirteen months ago, Drew and Heather Collins, had no idea that they would be joining the involuntary fraternity of the new life's normal.

'A salute to the Collins family for working to keep Elizabeth and Lyric Cook's memories alive, and for fighting to protect other children from horrific crimes'.

 

[carbuff]

Foxfire, I'm not going to re-quote all that long post because it really has nothing to do with my point, which is that professionals under pressure have to make difficult decisions with the best information that they have at the time about what information to release and what are the tradeoffs in any particular case. Releasing information is not always the right thing and no two cases are the same.

Are they going to make mistakes? Of course. Are they above criticism? Of course not. But even if they did misjudge the situation, that doesn't mean they're incompetent and that doesn't mean a different path would have worked out any better. Speaking only for myself, I'm going to keep in mind that I don't know the whole story and probably never will, and I'll try to take that into account in my opinions.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Foxfire, I'm not going to re-quote all that long post because it really has nothing to do with my point, which is that professionals under pressure have to make difficult decisions with the best information that they have at the time about what information to release and what are the tradeoffs in any particular case. Releasing information is not always the right thing and no two cases are the same.

Are they going to make mistakes? Of course. Are they above criticism? Of course not. But even if they did misjudge the situation, that doesn't mean they're incompetent and that doesn't mean a different path would have worked out any better. Speaking only for myself, I'm going to keep in mind that I don't know the whole story and probably never will, and I'll try to take that into account in my opinions.

:goodpost:

 

[Foxfire]

Foxfire, I'm not going to re-quote all that long post because it really has nothing to do with my point, which is that professionals under pressure have to make difficult decisions with the best information that they have at the time about what information to release and what are the tradeoffs in any particular case. Releasing information is not always the right thing and no two cases are the same.

Are they going to make mistakes? Of course. Are they above criticism? Of course not. But even if they did misjudge the situation, that doesn't mean they're incompetent and that doesn't mean a different path would have worked out any better. Speaking only for myself, I'm going to keep in mind that I don't know the whole story and probably never will, and I'll try to take that into account in my opinions.

carbuff, I worked in public safety; emergency services, for twenty five years.
I understand the pressure of making difficult decisions from a size up of the situation in an emergency. I also realize that no two incidents/cases are synonymous..
Pre-planning, proper training, knowing the available resources, and then utilizing these resources are necessities for a successful operation.

carbuff, jmo, from researching missing/murder investigations for the last 5+ years. The one common denominator that keeps coming up in cases that went south or cold, is the antiquated close to the vest silence strategy that was utilized by BHCSO in the L & L investigation.

 

[carbuff]

carbuff, I worked in public safety; emergency services, for twenty five years.
I understand the pressure of making difficult decisions from a size up of the situation in an emergency. I also realize that no two incidents/cases are synonymous..
Pre-planning, proper training, knowing the available resources, and then utilizing these resources are necessities for a successful operation.

carbuff, jmo, from researching missing/murder investigations for the last 5+ years. The one common denominator that keeps coming up in cases that went south or cold, is the antiquated close to the vest silence strategy that was utilized by BHCSO in the L & L investigation.

You're far more experienced than I am so I hesitate to argue, but my only direct experience, in the serial killer investigation several years ago, is that releasing lots of information starts witch hunts and feeds public anxiety while accomplishing very little -- whether that's a frequent result I don't know.

What information are they going to release when nobody saw a car, nobody saw a person, nobody saw anything? How do we know they didn't release every bit of information they had at the time of the abduction? Did they say they were holding back then?

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Foxfire, I'm not going to re-quote all that long post because it really has nothing to do with my point, which is that professionals under pressure have to make difficult decisions with the best information that they have at the time about what information to release and what are the tradeoffs in any particular case. Releasing information is not always the right thing and no two cases are the same.

Are they going to make mistakes? Of course. Are they above criticism? Of course not. But even if they did misjudge the situation, that doesn't mean they're incompetent and that doesn't mean a different path would have worked out any better. Speaking only for myself, I'm going to keep in mind that I don't know the whole story and probably never will, and I'll try to take that into account in my opinions.

It seems to me that the more robust the evidence that builds a case is, the more information investigators can release to the public. Conversely, the less robust the available evidence, then less information can be released.

For example, the Boston bomber case. They had the guys on videotape! There was no doubt at all about who had planted those bombs, only about their exact identities. Release a couple stills cut from the videotape and the brothers were identified quickly.

In Evelyn Miller's case, there was very little forensic evidence that was of use in building a case. They didn't find semen on/in her body and any other type of DNA found could be explained by the fact that she lived in the same household as the suspected perp. The perp was not a public danger because he'd been arrested and subsequently convicted on child *advertiser censored* and drug charges (won't be eligible for release until something like 2026). Making the case meant waiting for someone amongst the three leading suspects to show that he knew more than he should have known.

Frederiksen eventually demonstrated such knowledge (the other two never have).

Keep in mind that many of the same LE agencies that helped solve Evelyn's case are working on Elizabeth and Lyric's case.

I suspect that when someone is finally named as a suspect, we the public will then discover that the case depended on very small pieces of evidence, and not on a single smoking gun.

 

[Dr. Know?]

It seems to me that the more robust the evidence that builds a case is, the more information investigators can release to the public. Conversely, the less robust the available evidence, then less information can be released.

For example, the Boston bomber case. They had the guys on videotape! There was no doubt at all about who had planted those bombs, only about their exact identities. Release a couple stills cut from the videotape and the brothers were identified quickly.

In Evelyn Miller's case, there was very little forensic evidence that was of use in building a case. They didn't find semen on/in her body and any other type of DNA found could be explained by the fact that she lived in the same household as the suspected perp. The perp was not a public danger because he'd been arrested and subsequently convicted on child *advertiser censored* and drug charges (won't be eligible for release until something like 2026). Making the case meant waiting for someone amongst the three leading suspects to show that he knew more than he should have known.

Frederiksen eventually demonstrated such knowledge (the other two never have).

Keep in mind that many of the same LE agencies that helped solve Evelyn's case are working on Elizabeth and Lyric's case.

I suspect that when someone is finally named as a suspect, we the public will then discover that the case depended on very small pieces of evidence, and not on a single smoking gun.

I have to say, I love reading your posts. It reminds me of Miss Whitaker years ago in my first grade reading Scarlets Web to the class. You unfold many ideas that we learn from. My appreciation for your views. :seeya:

 

[B4igo2it]

It seems to me ... (snipped for space & BBM) In Evelyn Miller's case, ... The perp was not a public danger because he'd been arrested ...Keep in mind that many of the same LE agencies that helped solve Evelyn's case are working on Elizabeth and Lyric's case.

:cheers::goodpost:
Not that this is my opinion in the case of Lyric and Elizabeth, this can most definitely be the case. The public has not been "told to be on alert" and/or continuously cautioned outside of the ordinary to BOLO for a predator in the area.

(RIP little angel Evelyn; justice will be served.) :jail:

 

[24Roses]

OT-there was another attempted abduction at the Fareway store in Adel (down by Des Moines). There is hardly any info. released, but according to KCCI, more will be released today. I will post a link when the info. is updated.

 

[otto]

Only a couple of items of hold back evidence/info are necessary for successful investigations, interrogations, etc., imo.

Imo, due to advancements in technology; forensics/CSI; FBI CODIS, communications advancements, and other resources that were not available in the past. In the 21st century, to adhere to the close to the vest; silent investigative strategy in abduction investigations only causes innocent victims lives lost and mounting cold cases, imo.

The American public is the most valuable investigative resource in abduction/missing/murdered person cases. Why squander your most valuable resource?

Imo, we may be witnessing the tragic results of this antiquated investigative strategy in L & L and KS & DH's abductions.. The integrity of the investigation is of little importance when the probable sexual predator; MJ Klunder, who is responsible for these abductions, continues to prey on other children, and then commits suicide..imo..

Technological advances in forensic analysis should not change how murders are investigated. That is, the development in one field of investigative procedures should not result in the abandonment of other investigative procedures.

Withholding information that is only known by the perp is pretty much a standard tactic in murder investigations throughout the world. I truly fail to understand how abandoning this tactic will further the objectives of the investigation.

For example, let's suppose that a murderer strangled a victim with the victim's clothing. The public is curious about how the victim died. How is releasing that information going to help solve the murder? Conversely, withholding that information helps the investigation because, one day, the murderer may slip up and mention that detail to someone.

 

[Foxfire]

Technological advances in forensic analysis should not change how murders are investigated. That is, the development in one field of investigative procedures should not result in the abandonment of other investigative procedures.

Withholding information that is only known by the perp is pretty much a standard tactic in murder investigations throughout the world. I truly fail to understand how abandoning this tactic will further the objectives of the investigation.

For example, let's suppose that a murderer strangled a victim with the victim's clothing. The public is curious about how the victim died. How is releasing that information going to help solve the murder? Conversely, withholding that information helps the investigation because, one day, the murderer may slip up and mention that detail to someone.

Otto, time is critical in abductions, especially when strangers are involved/suspected.. Other innocent victims are at risk. Much has changed in investigative, communication, and prosecution strategies since the days of J Edgar Hoover. At least in proactive LEAs...

Example: http://jamiegrissim.com/2013/08/10/suspected-serial-killer-up-for-parole/

Suspected serial killer up for parole By Jessica MorkertPublished: Thursday, August 8, 2013,

BATTLE GROUND, Wash. (KOIN) — Between 1971 and 1974, Warren Forrest worked for the Clark County Parks Department. During that same period, at least six different women disappeared.

Many of their bodies were found in shallow graves.

http://murderpedia.org/male.F/f/forrest-warren-leslie.htm

VANCOUVER, Wash. – Nearly forty years ago Jamie Grissim of Vancouver disappeared without a trace. Detectives suspected she was murdered, but they’ve never found her body.

After all these years, the evidence points to one man: Warren Forrest.

Investigators think Forrest killed Grissim and other teenage girls; however, prosecutors could only make one case stick. In the 1970s Forrest was convicted of murdering 19-year-old Krista Blake in the woods of Tukes Mountain just east of Battle Ground.
<sniped - read more>
______________________________

'In the 1970s, malignant & sadistic serial killer Warren Forrest was only convicted for one of his many known victims; Krista Blake'. To prevent his release, it seems that he could be prosecuted for his other victims. Due to Forensic/DNA technology advancements, over the past 4 decades. A conviction should be easily achieved. W. Forrest's crimes are considered exceptionally heinous and have no statute of limitations. 'If released, he will repeat'..

"Sexual predators/serial killers are recidivist"...

 

[otto]

Otto, time is critical in abductions, especially when strangers are involved/suspected.. Other innocent victims are at risk. Much has changed in investigative, communication, and prosecution strategies since the days of J Edgar Hoover. At least in proactive LEAs...

Example: http://jamiegrissim.com/2013/08/10/suspected-serial-killer-up-for-parole/

<snipped the quote>

What withheld information, critical to the investigation, do you think should have been released to the public such that it would have solved the crime?

 

[alliemay]

It sounds like this subject could go back and forth for a while. I would certainly not want them to release anything that might harm the investigation. But there are some cases, maybe not this one where releasing COD might be helpful. For instance, if someone were strangled, I don't feel it would hurt the investigation if this were told as long as they don't divulge how they were strangled, (hand prints, rope, shoe lace, extension cord, etc). Maybe someone knows someone who gets agitated, and their first reaction is to grab the throat. Maybe a grandson who abused a grandparent who had been in trouble prior with the law. Maybe a husband with a wife. Let's say someone dies by gunshot. The police do not have to tell what type of bullet was used in the shooting. If I knew someone was killed in my area by a gunshot wound, I would be going over everyone I knew who owed a gun.....as for the girls, not sure they really know since their bodies were there so long, but in some cases I don't think it hurts to give some info but not all. I know there are wacko's who confess to things to just for their five minutes of fame.

 

[otto]

It sounds like this subject could go back and forth for a while. I would certainly not want them to release anything that might harm the investigation. But there are some cases, maybe not this one where releasing COD might be helpful. For instance, if someone were strangled, I don't feel it would hurt the investigation if this were told as long as they don't divulge how they were strangled, (hand prints, rope, shoe lace, extension cord, etc). Maybe someone knows someone who gets agitated, and their first reaction is to grab the throat. Maybe a grandson who abused a grandparent who had been in trouble prior with the law. Maybe a husband with a wife. Let's say someone dies by gunshot. The police do not have to tell what type of bullet was used in the shooting. If I knew someone was killed in my area by a gunshot wound, I would be going over everyone I knew who owed a gun.....as for the girls, not sure they really know since their bodies were there so long, but in some cases I don't think it hurts to give some info but not all. I know there are wacko's who confess to things to just for their five minutes of fame.

We discussed the possibility that a gun was used. It seems that everyone in Iowa owns a gun, so how would that information result in an arrest? Similarly, everyone owns electrical cords, so that information makes no difference. It's information that does not advance the investigation ... merely satisfies curiosity. At the same time, releasing that information eliminates an advantage that investigators have in keeping that information between them and the murderer.

 

[alliemay]

We discussed the possibility that a gun was used. It seems that everyone in Iowa owns a gun, so how would that information result in an arrest? Similarly, everyone owns electrical cords, so that information makes no difference. It's information that does not advance the investigation ... merely satisfies curiosity. At the same time, releasing that information eliminates an advantage that investigators have in keeping that information between them and the murderer.

My second line in the first paragraph says in some cases, maybe not this one.

 

[24Roses]

OT-there was another attempted abduction at the Fareway store in Adel (down by Des Moines). There is hardly any info. released, but according to KCCI, more will be released today. I will post a link when the info. is updated.

http://www.kcci.com/news/central-io...empt/-/9357080/21414974/-/rrc0oj/-/index.html Here is more info about the attempted abduction. At least they were able to find the man & question him!

 

[SapphireSteel]

For those who want information and a quick result -

What do you think of Daniel Morcombe's investigation?

Queensland LE actually planted an undercover cop in prison for YEARS before someone said something important.

They knew who the perp was, they just couldn't prove it.

At least we can rest assured that no one "planted" evidence against this guy, made a false arrest of the wrong person, or leaked information.

To leak or reveal ANY information would have caused those years of undercover to be wasted.

:cow:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...anic-court-hears/story-e6freoof-1226570746636

ETA: a lot of the "eyewitness" information turned out to be incorrect.