IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

[nikb]

I don't think this is a sexually motivated or a serial type crime so none of that is relevant to my sleuthing. :dunno:

:moo:

I'm just curious, if you can share within TOS, why do you think the Collins family (Drew in particular) is focusing on work against sex offenders, if this crime wasn't sexual in nature? FWIW I agree with you, but I don't have a strong theory or feeling on what might've happened. I just always felt it was probably something else. I started wondering about it again once Drew started this "crusade" (as it's called in the article below) though. I've seen it mentioned numerous places but here's one article: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/07/missing-iowa-girls-year-later/2497109/

Snip - BBM: "Drew is on a crusade to help police crack down on convicted sex offenders considered missing after they fail to register with authorities. He has made posters bearing missing sex offenders' faces to hang in Iowa police stations and raises money to use as rewards for people who provide information about their whereabouts."

A very worthy cause IMO even if what happened to his daughter wasn't a sex crime, but I just wonder what would sway him in that direction.

 

[Dr. Know?]

The only thing I've seen to watch is Dan's sentencing. I'm sitting on the edge.

I don't want a parent to be involved in any child's death. They can keep testimony from the public, but the sentencing will be interesting to finally know and who follows if that's the case. Again, Haleigh Cummings' case. 5 people were sentenced by law, 4 to 15 years and Misty got 25 on FL's mandatory minimums. As a teen for murder she would only get 20, iirc. Was it 332 pills they traded with undercover cops?

Again, I don't want a parent holding back or involved ever.

Klunder news? Where? He fits pretty good but not seeing any confirmation of that either.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I'm just curious, if you can share within TOS, why do you think the Collins family (Drew in particular) is focusing on work against sex offenders, if this crime wasn't sexual in nature? FWIW I agree with you, but I don't have a strong theory or feeling on what might've happened. I just always felt it was probably something else. I started wondering about it again once Drew started this "crusade" (as it's called in the article below) though. I've seen it mentioned numerous places but here's one article: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/07/missing-iowa-girls-year-later/2497109/

Snip - BBM: "Drew is on a crusade to help police crack down on convicted sex offenders considered missing after they fail to register with authorities. He has made posters bearing missing sex offenders' faces to hang in Iowa police stations and raises money to use as rewards for people who provide information about their whereabouts."

A very worthy cause IMO even if what happened to his daughter wasn't a sex crime, but I just wonder what would sway him in that direction.

Just a guess, but I think he does it because it makes him feel better.

There can be no greater pain for a father, to think he didn't protect his child. Maybe it's his therapy.

Maybe it means he's hunting an RSO because he knows something about the crime that we don't...but maybe it doesn't.

We do know that Drew and Heather specifically requested not to be told details. I have no idea if that's still the case or not.

:dunno:

 

[nikb]

Just a guess, but I think he does it because it makes him feel better.

There can be no greater pain for a father, to think he didn't protect his child. Maybe it's his therapy.

Maybe it means he's hunting an RSO because he knows something about the crime that we don't...but maybe it doesn't.

We do know that Drew and Heather specifically requested not to be told details. I have no idea if that's still the case or not.

:dunno:

Thanks for the reply. Seems like a good guess... like I said, worthy cause even if an RSO (or non-registered SO) is responsible for what happened, it just seemed like a surprising choice to me if an SO wasn't involved in some way.

I always felt like Heather wanted no details but Drew maybe did. Maybe he knows more than she does. I'm hoping they all (especially LE) know more than we do.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Foxfire - I'm not stating you are wrong, I'm just going to state MY opinion on their "we believe they are alive" statement.

IMO, they stated they believed the girls were alive because they had no reason to think otherwise.

I personally think that they thought this was all related to the drug connection or the family was somehow responsible and that the girls would turn up unharmed.

Even though they appeared to be following the "possible abduction" game plan, I don't think they thought the girls were going to wind up found dead in a county park months after that fateful day.

We know they grilled Dan and Misty incessantly. IMO they (at the time) had reason to question this being a "random" abduction and the deadly statistics that shadow those cases. They flat out accused Dan and said they "had evidence" which is why he stormed out and he and Misty lawyered up temporarily.

Now they appear to be open to other possibilities since it appears that they claim to be looking into MJK as a connection...yet, nothing on that forefront yet. Hmmm...wonder what's taking so long to figure that one out? :waitasec: And we know from other posters he's not the only person they have checked out.

In possible abduction cases, saying or implying that LE believes the victim is still alive seems to be standard operating procedure. It's easy to see why: look at what happened in the disappearance of Chloie Leverette and her brother Gage Daniels. They were living with their grandparents, they were seen alive at about 6:30 pm on a Sunday evening playing in their yard. At 9:00 pm neighbours reported the house was on fire.

As they say, firefighters managed to save the foundation. The house was already engulfed in flames by the time firefighters arrived and it caved in not too long afterwards. In searching through the debris afterwards, the bodies of the grandparents were found plus the body of the family dog and a pet bird. No sign of Chloie or Gage.

Four different teams went through the debris, including one from UTenn's 'Body Farm', the same team that went to the World Trade Center to search for remains of victims. Not one single solid piece of evidence was found that indicated that Chloie or Gage had been caught in the conflagration.

An Amber Alert was posted but very little else appears to have been done. The grandparents were hoarders and they had about 25 empty propane tanks in the basement. Those tanks were supposed to be empty but probably contained small amounts of propane in each tank, which increased the intensity of the fire. However, investigators were able to find and identify the body of the pet bird which would have been much smaller in mass than either Chloie or Gage. Were Chloie and Gage's bodies completely destroyed in the fire, far beyond what happens in a crematorium? Or was this a Joseph Duncan type situation where an abductor grabbed Chloie and Gage, then burned the house to conceal the evidence of his crime?

I think that ordinarily the story would have gotten much more media traction and that a much greater effort to find Chloie and Gage alive would have been made were it not for that element of doubt: were they caught in that fire? Great effort went into examining the remains of the house fire; I am convinced that if there were any more remains to be found there, they would have been found. Some effort was put into searching the surrounding woods, just in case the children had run out of the house and gotten lost in the terror of the moment. But no great effort was put into looking for them beyond about a five mile radius of the home.

I think people are naturally disinclined to put a lot of effort into finding a dead victim than they are in trying to find a living victim. People who volunteer to search are hoping not to find remains, they are hoping to find a live victim.

So law enforcement leans to the side of hope and emphasises that the victim(s) may still be alive. It isn't a lie but it's not a complete portrait of what LE thinks may have happened. It is often based on the reasoning "well, we haven't found any positive evidence of death." It doesn't mean that the victim(s) are still alive.

 

[Foxfire]

We don't know with 100% certainty that he has been caught every time. But - we know they have his DNA. And I believe that if there were a bunch of unsolved cases out there we would know by now if there were a match. I agree with Sapphire that there is nothing LE likes more than nailing someone to a wall in a crime like this. In the amount of time since his last crime there would certainly be match ups. That is just my opinion of course.

As far as ZERO in common I'm referring to the sloppiness of his past crimes and the fact that LE appeared to have no evidence left behind in L&L's case. They have stated as much. Are they fibbing? Possibly...but if MJK had any relation to the white boxy vehicle they wouldn't have had to beg the public for info. The family could provide that.

As far as the girls going with MJK, possibly. But I just don't think so. I think these girls were BOTH exposed to some shady, questionable people in their lives and were possibly even MORE cautious than other children who are not exposed to these elements. I just (for whatever reason) have a gut feeling that they wouldn't have gone and just dumped their bikes.

I do think the abduction was planned. I think the girls were told to go to where they were and it was no coincidence that they went missing from where they did.

3CK, DNA/forensics is only as good as the crime scene investigation. Prior to 1991 when MJK was imprisoned, crime scene investigations were not as meticulous as they are in the CSI world of today. Brandon Scott Lavergne, would have skated on the Lisa Pate murder, due to a less than par crime scene investigation. BSL confessed to her murder a decade later during the Mickey Shunick murder investigation.

RE: there is nothing LE likes more than nailing someone to a wall in a crime like this

Nailing a deceased suspect to the wall is analogous to nailing jello to a tree; can't be done. Committing suicide was MJK's final act of revenge, imo..
3CK, MJK, had not been out of prison but only about 17 months when E & L were abducted. MJK had 2 decades to study his evil craft and his deviant desires would have only increased over this period as he laid in his cell fantasying about future crimes against humanity.

MJK, was not only very violent, but also very vindictive, and was disposed to seek revenge, imo. Revenge, aimed at the Justice System that had wrongly denied him parole, that in his mind, he had earned and deserved. MJK, stated as much in his letter to the warden. Psychopaths are very calculating, and have a purpose for every thing they say, and everything they do.. Imo, this is why the bodies were placed at 7 bridges park in Bremer county, IA. MJK, was sending a sick and perverted message to those that he felt had persecuted him in the past, imo...

MJK, imo would have first attempted a ruse on E & L, as he did with KS & DH. If, due to E & L's caution, the ruse was unsuccessful, MJK would have used the euthanizing gun to gain their compliance, imo.

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/investigators/serial_killers.html
Serial Killers - A Homicide Detective's Take

Victim Selection...

 

[threecrazykids]

3CK, MJK, had not been out of prison but only about 17 months when E & L were abducted. MJK had 2 decades to study his evil craft and his deviant desires would have only increased over this period as he laid in his cell fantasying about future crimes against humanity.

MJK, was not only very violent, but also very vindictive, and was disposed to seek revenge, imo. Revenge, aimed at the Justice System that had wrongly denied him parole, that in his mind, he had earned and deserved. MJK, stated as much in his letter to the warden. Psychopaths are very calculating, and have a purpose for every thing they say, and everything they do.. Imo, this is why the bodies were placed at 7 bridges park in Bremer county, IA. MJK, was sending a sick and perverted message to those that persecuted him in the past, imo...

MJK, imo would have first attempted a ruse on E & L, as he did with KS & DH. If, due to E & L's caution, the ruse was unsuccessful, MJK would have used the euthanizing gun to gain their compliance, imo.

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/investigators/serial_killers.html
Serial Killers - A Homicide Detective's Take

Victim Selection...

Foxfire - I am not disagreeing that MJK appears to fit the profile of someone capable of abducting and killing L&L. I just don't have the same gut feeling that you, and others do...that he's our guy.:dunno:

You have posted several links and arguments validating your point, and I appreciate that...but I just don't think he's the one.

Like I have said before - I will be happy to admit I was wrong if they ever do end up making an announcement that he's the guy.

As far as ANY arrest goes there are probably very few of us who are going to be right on with not only our perp/perps but also how we've envisioned it going down.

We probably know very little about the truth and I wouldn't be surprised if in the end some of us are like this when the truth comes out.

Also...keep in mind, they may have Klunder's DNA - BUT they have to have something to match it up against. If they didn't obtain salvageable DNA from the girls bodies it may be next to impossible to close this case. In addition to that...say Klunder DID use some sort of euthanasia bolt to kill the girls...that would take LE all of about .2 seconds to link that up. RSO's are required to list their place of employment as part of their registration requirements...they could do a sweep of the entire state in a matter of minutes if they found a farm connection even before MJK struck again.

I just feel that if MJK was our guy we'd know by now.

Now, as far as WHY they haven't released him in or out? No clue. They've had plenty of time to gather all the evidence that would require a high or low likelihood he was in or around Evansdale on July 13th.

I, for one, believe the family would more than likely turn over everything LE would need to prove that, one way or another. LE more than likely wouldn't have to jump through the legal hoops of warrants, subpoenas, etc to obtain cell phone records. JMO of course...

They know...they just can't put a good PR spin on it no matter WHAT their determination is so they do what they do best...say nothing.:silenced:

 

[Foxfire]

In possible abduction cases, saying or implying that LE believes the victim is still alive seems to be standard operating procedure. It's easy to see why: look at what happened in the disappearance of Chloie Leverette and her brother Gage Daniels. They were living with their grandparents, they were seen alive at about 6:30 pm on a Sunday evening playing in their yard. At 9:00 pm neighbours reported the house was on fire.

As they say, firefighters managed to save the foundation. The house was already engulfed in flames by the time firefighters arrived and it caved in not too long afterwards. In searching through the debris afterwards, the bodies of the grandparents were found plus the body of the family dog and a pet bird. No sign of Chloie or Gage.

Four different teams went through the debris, including one from UTenn's 'Body Farm', the same team that went to the World Trade Center to search for remains of victims. Not one single solid piece of evidence was found that indicated that Chloie or Gage had been caught in the conflagration.

An Amber Alert was posted but very little else appears to have been done. The grandparents were hoarders and they had about 25 empty propane tanks in the basement. Those tanks were supposed to be empty but probably contained small amounts of propane in each tank, which increased the intensity of the fire. However, investigators were able to find and identify the body of the pet bird which would have been much smaller in mass than either Chloie or Gage. Were Chloie and Gage's bodies completely destroyed in the fire, far beyond what happens in a crematorium? Or was this a Joseph Duncan type situation where an abductor grabbed Chloie and Gage, then burned the house to conceal the evidence of his crime?

I think that ordinarily the story would have gotten much more media traction and that a much greater effort to find Chloie and Gage alive would have been made were it not for that element of doubt: were they caught in that fire? Great effort went into examining the remains of the house fire; I am convinced that if there were any more remains to be found there, they would have been found. Some effort was put into searching the surrounding woods, just in case the children had run out of the house and gotten lost in the terror of the moment. But no great effort was put into looking for them beyond about a five mile radius of the home.

I think people are naturally disinclined to put a lot of effort into finding a dead victim than they are in trying to find a living victim. People who volunteer to search are hoping not to find remains, they are hoping to find a live victim.

So law enforcement leans to the side of hope and emphasises that the victim(s) may still be alive. It isn't a lie but it's not a complete portrait of what LE thinks may have happened. It is often based on the reasoning "well, we haven't found any positive evidence of death." It doesn't mean that the victim(s) are still alive.

http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/missing_children/documents/USTN_Bedfordcounty.pdf

Missing From: Unionville, Tennessee
Missing Since: 09/23/2012
The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation has issued an Endangered Child Alert for the Bedford County
Sheriff's Office for 9-year old Chloie Leverette and 7-year old Gage Daniel. The children were last seen on
Sunday, September 23, 2012 at approximately 6:30 p.m. by a neighbor. Chloie and Gage lived with their
grandparents at 730 Kingdom Road, Unionville, Tennessee. That home was destroyed by fire on Sunday
night at approximately 9:30 p.m. According to State Bomb and Arson investigators, the children were not
victims of the fire and their whereabouts are unknown at this time. If you have any information
concerning the current whereabouts of Chloie and Gage, please contact the TBI at 1-800-TBI-FIND

RE: Quote: Grainne Dhu;In possible abduction cases, saying or implying that LE believes the victim is still alive seems to be standard operating procedure.

Grainne Dhu, yes, unless and until, there is evidence to the contrary, as in KS's case where a significant amount of blood was found. It is SOP for LE to state that abduction victims are alive. It is also very unusual for the FBI spokesperson to 'stress that they are “confident” both Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook-Morrissey are still alive.

FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault wouldn’t say what made them confident, even as statistics show that the longer someone goes missing, the less likely it is they will be found.


____________________________________

RE: 9-year old Chloie Leverette and 7-year old Gage Daniel

Grainne Dhu, I imagine they saved the chimney too... Unlike a conflagration, which involves several blocks full involved, a house fire will seldom exceed 1400/1500 degrees maximum at the ceiling. Although their was propane tanks stored in the basement, it is doubtful that there would have been enough sustained heat build up to cremate Chloie and Gage. Imo, if they had been in the house, their remains would have been found...

The TBI's antiquated strategy of silence in Chloie Leverette and Gage Daniel's investigation leaves many more questions than answers, imo. Imo, this is why TN has such an epidemic of missing persons cold cases. I get so discouraged following missing person's investigations in TN, due to their good ole boy silence strategy.. Holly Bobo, should have been rescued and her abductor apprehended within minutes of her abduction, imo. After over two years the TBI is still chasing their tails.. Imo, there needs to be a shake up in the TBI's leadership...

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/jun/28/americas-silent-disaster/?partner=RSS

'America's silent disaster:' Mysteries of the missing
FBI: More than 1,100 'active' missing-persons cases in Tennessee; exact number unknown...

By Jim Balloch
Posted June 28, 2009 at midnight

TBI's Motto: "That Guilt shall not Escape, nor Innocence suffer"..

 

[otto]

Thanks for the reply. Seems like a good guess... like I said, worthy cause even if an RSO (or non-registered SO) is responsible for what happened, it just seemed like a surprising choice to me if an SO wasn't involved in some way.

I always felt like Heather wanted no details but Drew maybe did. Maybe he knows more than she does. I'm hoping they all (especially LE) know more than we do.

That's my understanding as well. Drew and Heather have become active in efforts to change legislation related to sex offenders. This seemed to coincide with the discovery of the bodies. Only Heather has said that she doesn't need to know the details of how the children were murdered.

Some parents that lose their children to drunk drivers advocate for stronger drunk driving laws. Some parents that lose their children to sex offenders advocate for stronger sex offender laws. Parents that lose their children to drunk drivers don't usually advocate for stronger sex offender laws.

If Heather and Drew were told about the children's clothing (and they probably were), that would be enough to know whether the children were fully clothed when the remains were found. That would also be sufficient for the parents to conclude that it was most likely a sexual assault. Additionally, there's not really any other reason for two young girls to be abducted, taken to a secluded area and murdered.

 

[Foxfire]

Many investigation decisions; are based on political consequences.. The timing of when and if information is released, as well as how much information is revealed is dependent upon the political ramifications..imo.

Iowa | 2014 Elections
Board of Elections * Gubernatorial Candidates * Senatorial Candidates * Sheriffs..

If MJK is found to be responsible for E & L's abduction/murders. The political ramifications would be very wide spread; an indictment of the Justice system that released him, time and time again, imo. The lack of monitoring allowed RSO MJK to freely prey on innocent children unscathed, imo..

 

[threecrazykids]

That's my understanding as well. Drew and Heather have become active in efforts to change legislation related to sex offenders. This seemed to coincide with the discovery of the bodies. Only Heather has said that she doesn't need to know the details of how the children were murdered.

Some parents that lose their children to drunk drivers advocate for stronger drunk driving laws. Some parents that lose their children to sex offenders advocate for stronger sex offender laws. Parents that lose their children to drunk drivers don't usually advocate for stronger sex offender laws.

If Heather and Drew were told about the children's clothing (and they probably were), that would be enough to know whether the children were fully clothed when the remains were found. That would also be sufficient for the parents to conclude that it was most likely a sexual assault. Additionally, there's not really any other reason for two young girls to be abducted, taken to a secluded area and murdered.

Otto, just curious what your thoughts are. I personally feel there is no ignoring the fact that the location they were found almost certainly equates to local knowledge as well as a local connection. I just can't fathom how this person could just be "passing through" and not only happened upon these girls but ALSO happened upon Seven Bridges? HIGHLY unlikely IMO.

I know you feel strongly that this is sexually based, so do you tend to believe this person just isn't registered as a sex offender? LE states they cleared all sex offenders and "have no concerns with that".

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest...ficials-frantically-grasping-for-straws-video

Do you think this is a first time offender who isn't/wasn't on LE's radar? Or do you believe that maybe this person does have prior offenses, but has an alibi that LE can't prove otherwise?

 

[threecrazykids]

Many investigation decisions; are based on political consequences.. The timing of when and if information is released, as well as how much information is revealed is dependent upon the political ramifications..imo.

Iowa | 2014 Elections
Board of Elections * Gubernatorial Candidates * Senatorial Candidates * Sheriffs..

If MJK is found to be responsible for E & L's abduction/murders. The political ramifications would be very wide spread; an indictment of the Justice system that released him, time and time again, imo. The lack of monitoring allowed RSO MJK to freely prey on innocent children unscathed, imo..

This is exactly why I think they haven't said one word either way. It is in their best interest to say nothing. They are under no obligation to release findings either way I wouldn't think. Especially if the findings were inconclusive.

 

[otto]

Otto, just curious what your thoughts are. I personally feel there is no ignoring the fact that the location they were found almost certainly equates to local knowledge as well as a local connection. I just can't fathom how this person could just be "passing through" and not only happened upon these girls but ALSO happened upon Seven Bridges? HIGHLY unlikely IMO.

I know you feel strongly that this is sexually based, so do you tend to believe this person just isn't registered as a sex offender? LE states they cleared all sex offenders and "have no concerns with that".

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest...ficials-frantically-grasping-for-straws-video

Do you think this is a first time offender who isn't/wasn't on LE's radar? Or do you believe that maybe this person does have prior offenses, but has an alibi that LE can't prove otherwise?

I don't believe that this is a first time offender. As the mother of Morgan Harrington said when her daughter was abducted, murdered and left in a field a few miles away: no one starts their criminal career with murder/abduction. She was right. DNA implicated a man that was involved in a sexual assault a few years earlier. He has not been found, but he did have prior criminal activity. I'm sure that the murderer of Elizabeth and Lyric has prior offenses, but he may also have gotten away with it in the past ... just like now.

I'm convinced that this was a sexual assault. The sex offender registry has been completely watered down with people that are not sex offenders (e.g.: sexting teens). It seems to me that it's a useless registry.

There are two locations associated with the murders: Maiden Lane and Seven Bridges County Park. Both locations were popular in the past, but both stopped being popular in the late 1980s and 1990s. That is, Maiden Lane was a party spot until the highway was built, and Seven Bridges County Park was popular until the bridge was washed away. Both areas would be known to locals, and it would also be well known to locals that both areas were now mostly abandoned. To me, that says a local person either in his 30-40s, or the child of someone in his 40-50s that spent time at Seven Bridges County Park ... where the child also heard stories from parents about parties at Maiden Lane. I think it could very likely be someone from the Waterloo/Evansdale area and it might be someone that knows the family (perhaps Elizabeth's family) through work, church or other casual acquaintance. I'm inclined to think that Elizabeth was the target and that she was easier to abduct (let her guard down) because she was with Lyric.

 

[Foxfire]

This is exactly why I think they haven't said one word either way. It is in their best interest to say nothing. They are under no obligation to release findings either way I wouldn't think. Especially if the findings were inconclusive.

Imo, due to the paper tag on MJK's red toyota truck, it is likely that he recently purchased the truck...
3CK, if it is discovered and disclosed that MJK, had access too the old boxlike white SUV from the overlooked public tips. Many careers will be over, as they should be, imo..

Quote: Criminal Profiler Pat Brown said…

We could use a strong accountability system not dependent on appeals, but rather oversight. The public/citizens have a right to know exactly how decisions are made and cases are handled.

It does not have to be in the midst of the case but certainly afterward there should be transparency. If there isn’t, how can we address issues of corruption, incompetance, and error? We need to know in order to fix problems and hold people accountable for what is supposed to be work done on behalf of the citizens.

Somehow “the interest of the state” seems to preclude the citizenry which is odd considering the state IS the citizenry, well, at least in a democratic republic with a constitution...

 

[threecrazykids]

I don't believe that this is a first time offender. As the mother of Morgan Harrington said when her daughter was abducted, murdered and left in a field a few miles away: no one starts their criminal career with murder/abduction. She was right. DNA implicated a man that was involved in a sexual assault a few years earlier. He has not been found, but he did have prior criminal activity. I'm sure that the murderer of Elizabeth and Lyric has prior offenses, but he may also have gotten away with it in the past ... just like now.

I'm convinced that this was a sexual assault. The sex offender registry has been completely watered down with people that are not sex offenders (e.g.: sexting teens). It seems to me that it's a useless registry.

There are two locations associated with the murders: Maiden Lane and Seven Bridges County Park. Both locations were popular in the past, but both stopped being popular in the late 1980s and 1990s. That is, Maiden Lane was a party spot until the highway was built, and Seven Bridges County Park was popular until the bridge was washed away. Both areas would be known to locals, and it would also be well known to locals that both areas were now mostly abandoned. To me, that says a local person either in his 30-40s, or the child of someone in his 40-50s that spent time at Seven Bridges County Park ... where the child also heard stories from parents about parties at Maiden Lane. I think it could very likely be someone from the Waterloo/Evansdale area and it might be someone that knows the family (perhaps Elizabeth's family) through work, church or other casual acquaintance. I'm inclined to think that Elizabeth was the target and that she was easier to abduct (let her guard down) because she was with Lyric.

Thank you for your insight. Lots of things to think over. I do agree that this is more than likely not a first time offender. Whether this perp has been caught for other crimes (petty or otherwise) I don't think this is someone who is void of a past criminal history.

I know you are an advocate of LE and their handling of the case. I'm just not feeling as confident as you about their investigative skills. I feel that the first few hours of this case were critical and that a lack of true abduction protocol may not have been administered immediately. Obviously LE goes where the evidence takes them, but from the beginning I question the basics that didn't appear to be followed.

 

[Bootsctr]

That's my understanding as well. Drew and Heather have become active in efforts to change legislation related to sex offenders. This seemed to coincide with the discovery of the bodies. Only Heather has said that she doesn't need to know the details of how the children were murdered.

Some parents that lose their children to drunk drivers advocate for stronger drunk driving laws. Some parents that lose their children to sex offenders advocate for stronger sex offender laws. Parents that lose their children to drunk drivers don't usually advocate for stronger sex offender laws.

If Heather and Drew were told about the children's clothing (and they probably were), that would be enough to know whether the children were fully clothed when the remains were found. That would also be sufficient for the parents to conclude that it was most likely a sexual assault. Additionally, there's not really any other reason for two young girls to be abducted, taken to a secluded area and murdered.

I agree that it is a good thing that Drew and Heather have become proactive in lobbying for stronger sentencing for sex offenders, child molesters, etc. However, where is the anger that someone took their precious child and niece from them????? I think Dan is angry. I look at him and I see a totally devastated man who feels he failed to protect his daughter. I realize Heather has other children and that she has to be strong for them, but
I would love to see some "Diena Thompson" anger in Heather. Somer's mother also had two other children and she was there for them after Somer's abduction and murder, but you know what she was in front of the media at every opportunity. She said she was angry and you could see it. She did sit back quietly and say she did not want to know the details. She wanted the killer caught and she wanted to know the truth about her daughter's death. That's my thoughts of how I would handle my child being murdered. Even if I had TEN children, to lose even one to a slug like Jarred Mitchell Harrell would have me searching for him until I died. I would continue to get up every morning for my other children, but I would search for the monster who took one away from me. I probably would not feel like having Valentine Day parties for adults only or Tupperware parties even though it is for the Angel Park. . . And even if I was friends with the Chief of Police and even if he told me the case was still active, I would be out every day making my presence known - I'd be knocking on doors and I'd be the worst nightmare of every registered sex offender, child molester and just creepy people in general in my town and surrounding area. I'm glad there is a park in memory of Lyric and Elizabeth and other victims of such violence, but I just wish there was more a sense of urgency to find who did this rather than atmosphere of complacency.

 

[Bootsctr]

Imo, due to the paper tag on MJK's red toyota truck, it is likely that he recently purchased the truck...
3CK, if it is discovered and disclosed that MJK, had access too the old boxlike white SUV from the overlooked public tips. Many careers will be over, as they should be, imo..

Quote: Criminal Profiler Pat Brown said…

We could use a strong accountability system not dependent on appeals, but rather oversight. The public/citizens have a right to know exactly how decisions are made and cases are handled.

It does not have to be in the midst of the case but certainly afterward there should be transparency. If there isn’t, how can we address issues of corruption, incompetance, and error? We need to know in order to fix problems and hold people accountable for what is supposed to be work done on behalf of the citizens.

Somehow “the interest of the state” seems to preclude the citizenry which is odd considering the state IS the citizenry, well, at least in a democratic republic with a constitution...

Thank you for your post, but if MJK did have access to an old white SUV (the most vague description of a vehicle as 3CK stated :floorlaugh: ) that should be known by now. Of course, he could have been borrowing that vehicle and that person is scared that he could be arrested as an accessory to the crime if DNA or other evidence as proof the girls were ever in that generic white vehicle and maybe that scenario is preventing that information to be known. You would think that $150,000 reward would be mighty tempting to some and even worth the risk of giving that information to LE.

 

[dotr]

Not sure if this was suggested or not and although unlikely, still a possibility imo, but any chance the girls were abducted, held for "ransom" for one purpose or another, but ended up dying by accident?
That was a hot and dry summer and many kids seemed to have died from heat exhaustion after being left in a hot car.
Could the girls have been hidden in a trunk, or underground spot ect. ect. and the perp/s possibly not being too swift or unable to return to them in a timely fashion, return and find L and L deceased?


Just to add that my use of the word "ransom' was not meant in the demand for money sense.

 

[tlcya]

just checking in. When will we see movement on this case? Frustrated but clinging to hope that someday we will see an arrest.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Grainne Dhu, I imagine they saved the chimney too... Unlike a conflagration, which involves several blocks full involved, a house fire will seldom exceed 1400/1500 degrees maximum at the ceiling. Although their was propane tanks stored in the basement, it is doubtful that there would have been enough sustained heat build up to cremate Chloie and Gage. Imo, if they had been in the house, their remains would have been found...

The TBI's antiquated strategy of silence in Chloie Leverette and Gage Daniel's investigation leaves many more questions than answers, imo.

SBM

I agree that Chloie and Gage were probably not in the house when it burned. If the rubble had only been examined once or twice by investigators with little experience in finding remains in the sites of unusually hot fires, well, I'd have some doubts.

But that's not the case for Chloie and Gage. They brought in the best of the best: the "Body Farm" team from the University of Tennessee that had assisted with the search of the rubble after 9/11. I mean, they found the pet bird! A pet bird is way easier to cremate than a human being due to less mass and thinner bones.

Tennessee may well have a policy of closely held investigations in general but it's not true in Chloie and Gage's case IMHO. If they found any more evidence than what they've admitted, they haven't so much as hinted at it. They've actually said that they have no more evidence. There is just nothing more to reveal. They've had four separate teams go through the rubble and nothing. They did do a ground search of the area around the house and likewise, nothing.

That ties in with what I am afraid LE has in Elizabeth and Lyric's case: nothing. I am beginning to think they aren't revealing much because they just don't have much to reveal.

I can think of a dozen different ways that Elizabeth and Lyric could have been lured or coerced from Meyers Lake without the perp touching their bicycles or leaving any other type of evidence behind. So it could be that there is no DNA, no fingerprints, no fibre evidence.

At 7 Bridges, any evidence left behind was exposed to the elements for five months, which could have destroyed DNA and fingerprint evidence. If there were any fibres collected from the scene, then they would have to be matched to a potential source. What if LE did collect, say, fibres that are eventually shown to have been used in T-shirts sold at Wal-Mart? Well, that sure narrows the suspect pool down to maybe 100 million people in the US.

It could be that the only case LE could possibly build would be a solely circumstantial case and those are really tough to do.