IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

[threecrazykids]

Regardless of statistical implications, it is common for investigators to report that abducted/missing persons are still alive when there is no evidence to the contrary.. The FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault, spoke with confidence that L & L were still alive a week after their disappearance. Imo, the FBI PIO Sandy Breault would not have made this very specific statement without a concrete reason.

'Imo, days after L & L's abduction, the FBI received some sort of communication from the abductor, possibly a ransom demand, to lead them to believe they were still alive a week later. Imo, the only plausible explanation for the perp contacting investigators would be for taunting or manipulation purposes. If LE were contacted, the person contacting them would have had to have info that only the abductor would know. There are many reasons for a predator to taunt LE;

*to show investigators, that they are smarter than them
*to deflect the direction of the investigation(many predators get upset when they don't get proper credit for their evil deeds. BTK, contacted LE to correct media reports)
*to apply additional pressure on investigators(increase the sense of urgency)
*to buy time; establish allibi, sell or dispose of vehicle and other indictable evidence..
*to increase media attention
*financial gain; ransom money.(Israel Keyes/Samantha Koenig)

Release Detailed Account of Samantha Koenig's Death
http://articles.ktuu.com/2012-12-04/israel-keyes_35602875

“Keyes drove around town, explaining to Samantha that this was a kidnapping for ransom,” officials wrote.” Samantha told Keyes that her family did not have much money, and that Keyes was not likely to get much in ransom. Keyes explained that they (would) raise money for the ransom by seeking the public’s help. Keyes convinced Samantha that if she cooperated, she would be returned to her family unharmed. Samantha believed Keyes, and tried to talk to him in an effort to convince him to release her.”
“Keyes then sexually assaulted Samantha and asphyxiated her,” officials wrote.
<sniped & BBM-read more>
__________________________________________________

EVANSDALE, Iowa - Investigators still wouldn&#8217;t say they had any new leads Saturday afternoon, but stressed that they were &#8220;confident&#8221; both Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook-Morrissey are still alive.

FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault wouldn&#8217;t say what made them confident, even as statistics show that the longer someone goes missing, the less likely it is they will be found.

&#8220;We believe the girls are alive, and we are not discouraged by the passage of time,&#8221; Breault told reporters at the Evansdale Community Response Center Saturday.

Story Created: Jul 21, 2012 http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/FBI-...-Missing-Girls-Are-Still-Alive-163296976.html

Foxfire - I'm not stating you are wrong, I'm just going to state MY opinion on their "we believe they are alive" statement.

IMO, they stated they believed the girls were alive because they had no reason to think otherwise.

I personally think that they thought this was all related to the drug connection or the family was somehow responsible and that the girls would turn up unharmed.

Even though they appeared to be following the "possible abduction" game plan, I don't think they thought the girls were going to wind up found dead in a county park months after that fateful day.

We know they grilled Dan and Misty incessantly. IMO they (at the time) had reason to question this being a "random" abduction and the deadly statistics that shadow those cases. They flat out accused Dan and said they "had evidence" which is why he stormed out and he and Misty lawyered up temporarily.

Now they appear to be open to other possibilities since it appears that they claim to be looking into MJK as a connection...yet, nothing on that forefront yet. Hmmm...wonder what's taking so long to figure that one out? :waitasec: And we know from other posters he's not the only person they have checked out.

 

[Foxfire]

Foxfire - I'm not stating you are wrong, I'm just going to state MY opinion on their "we believe they are alive" statement.

IMO, they stated they believed the girls were alive because they had no reason to think otherwise.

I personally think that they thought this was all related to the drug connection or the family was somehow responsible and that the girls would turn up unharmed.

Even though they appeared to be following the "possible abduction" game plan, I don't think they thought the girls were going to wind up found dead in a county park months after that fateful day.

We know they grilled Dan and Misty incessantly. IMO they (at the time) had reason to question this being a "random" abduction and the deadly statistics that shadow those cases. They flat out accused Dan and said they "had evidence" which is why he stormed out and he and Misty lawyered up temporarily.

Now they appear to be open to other possibilities since it appears that they claim to be looking into MJK as a connection...yet, nothing on that forefront yet. Hmmm...wonder what's taking so long to figure that one out? :waitasec: And we know from other posters he's not the only person they have checked out.

threecrazykids, I honor and respect your opinion.
Watch the press conference video again, and listen very closely to the FBI PIO's words.
She says, "we have some things that we can't discuss, that lead us to believe that these girls are alive".. Then she goes on to say that they can't release what leads them to this conclusion. Imo, this is not the the normal general response given in an abduction/missing persons case. The normal response is, 'there is no info or evidence that leads us to believe that these girls aren't alive'.
Watch the FBI spokesperson's demeanor very carefully while she is making this very specific statement.

Investigators Believe Missing Girls Are Still Alive
http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/FBI-...-Missing-Girls-Are-Still-Alive-163296976.html

 

[Foxfire]

Did EC or LC have a cell phone? Can't remember..

 

[dotr]

Did EC or LC have a cell phone? Can't remember..

Just an old one good for playing games but not making calls if memory serves correctly.

 

[threecrazykids]

threecrazykids, I honor and respect your opinion.
Watch the press conference video again, and listen very closely to the FBI PIO's words.
She says, "we have some things that we can't discuss, that lead us to believe that these girls are alive".. Then she goes on to say that they can't release what leads them to this conclusion. Imo, this is not the the normal general response given in an abduction/missing persons case. The normal response is, 'there is no info or evidence that leads us to believe that these girls aren't alive'.
Watch the FBI spokesperson's demeanor very carefully while she is making this very specific statement.

Investigators Believe Missing Girls Are Still Alive
http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/FBI-...-Missing-Girls-Are-Still-Alive-163296976.html

I don't doubt that they honestly believed that. I agree...they felt that these girls were NOT randomly abducted, and that they would turn up alive.

Watch this interview with Dan Morrissey. He and Misty had been put through the ringer with investigators drilling them "for hours" as Misty states.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-suspect-dad-missing-iowa-girls-case-family/story?id=16810959

SBM
The aunt of the two missing Iowa cousins said Thursday that authorities have accused a family member of involvement with the girls' disappearance.

"They have accused him," Brousseau said. "They told him they had proof that he did it."

In the past day, investigators have seized the couple's computers.

"You tell them the truth and they say, 'You're holding something back,' and you're not. What is left to talk about? You know, we go over and over and over again," Daniel Morrissey told KCCI Des Moines this week. "It made me feel like, 'Yeah, they're looking at me like a suspect.'"

If investigators had an outside source leading them to believe these girls were alive why on earth would they treat these parents this way? They tell him they have PROOF?! But like his lawyer said..."we all know if they had proof he would be arrested".

They were scrambling with what they COULD find...and that was a quick connection to drugs.

But now? After the girls were found we heard the comment "we finally have something we can sink our teeth into". Clearly that was ANOTHER comment by LE tossing out hope.

And then suddenly we have 2 MORE girls abducted, and one is sadly killed.
And then LE states they are going to look into him as well.

Then they want to find out who was driving the most vague vehicle on the planet and plea for info from people A YEAR LATER? Please.

On top of that we've heard of other posters who have called in tips and Smock says "we have already been made aware of X and have looked into it".

I honest to God don't think they have anything but a bunch of circumstantial evidence and if you've read/spoke with any homicide investigator they will tell you that what APPEARS to be the case up front is seldom the path that leads to the truth.

 

[Foxfire]

I don't doubt that they honestly believed that. I agree...they felt that these girls were NOT randomly abducted, and that they would turn up alive.

Watch this interview with Dan Morrissey. He and Misty had been put through the ringer with investigators drilling them "for hours" as Misty states.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-suspect-dad-missing-iowa-girls-case-family/story?id=16810959

SBM
The aunt of the two missing Iowa cousins said Thursday that authorities have accused a family member of involvement with the girls' disappearance.

"They have accused him," Brousseau said. "They told him they had proof that he did it."

In the past day, investigators have seized the couple's computers.

"You tell them the truth and they say, 'You're holding something back,' and you're not. What is left to talk about? You know, we go over and over and over again," Daniel Morrissey told KCCI Des Moines this week. "It made me feel like, 'Yeah, they're looking at me like a suspect.'"

If investigators had an outside source leading them to believe these girls were alive why on earth would they treat these parents this way? They tell him they have PROOF?! But like his lawyer said..."we all know if they had proof he would be arrested".

They were scrambling with what they COULD find...and that was a quick connection to drugs.

But now? After the girls were found we heard the comment "we finally have something we can sink our teeth into". Clearly that was ANOTHER comment by LE tossing out hope.

And then suddenly we have 2 MORE girls abducted, and one is sadly killed.
And then LE states they are going to look into him as well.

Then they want to find out who was driving the most vague vehicle on the planet and plea for info from people A YEAR LATER? Please.

On top of that we've heard of other posters who have called in tips and Smock says "we have already been made aware of X and have looked into it".

I honest to God don't think they have anything but a bunch of circumstantial evidence and if you've read/spoke with any homicide investigator they will tell you that what APPEARS to be the case up front is seldom the path that leads to the truth.

Know what you mean, threecrazy kids.

Extreme Perceived Hypothesis due to the drug history/charges, threecrazykids. Although imo, all initial indicators pointed to an experienced stranger predator abduction; statistics(aprox 50%), ages of L & L, time of day, secluded areas/park location, bicycles in the middle of the road, lack of physical & forensic evidence at crime scene, 3 mile search radius..etc.. The tunnel visioned focus by the investigators zeroed in on the parents while ignoring the probable scenario, imo..

 

[SapphireSteel]

Know what you mean, threecrazy kids.

Extreme Perceived Hypothesis due to the drug history/charges, threecrazykids. Although imo, all initial indicators pointed to an experienced stranger predator abduction; statistics(aprox 50%), ages of L & L, time of day, secluded areas/park location, bicycles in the middle of the road, lack of physical & forensic evidence at crime scene, 3 mile search radius..etc.. The tunnel visioned focus by the investigators zeroed in on the parents while ignoring the probable scenario, imo..

Tunnel vision? :waitasec:

I would say LE have investigated where the evidence took them.

The family are free and uncharged, so I don't know how you can say that the Evansdale Police Department, the BHCSO, the DCI and the FBI have all got tunnel vision.

They know things we don't, after all.

:moo:

 

[margarita25]

Quote by Foxfire: "Regardless of statistical implications, it is common for investigators to report that abducted/missing persons are still alive when there is no evidence to the contrary..."....<respectfully snipped>

**************************************

The above recent posts / discussion reminds me a lot of Jessica Heeringa's case (young mother abducted from a gas station in Michigan this past April---see my signature for more info). Chief Shaw (and the family) keeps on alluding / stating they have reason to believe that Jessica is alive; therefore there has been a lack of searches in her case.

 

[margarita25]

You know, I used to think there were no such things as coincidences, that if it walked like a duck, talked like a duck....but I've seen the strangest things here on WS ----for instance, in Adrienne Salinas's case, another woman was murdered around the exact time and in very close proximity to where Adrienne disappeared, yet it is possible that this case could very well be unrelated...

I have not followed Lyric's and Elizabeth's from the beginning, since this was before my time here at WS, but it certainly seems as though this case is very multidimensional. Again, one would think MJK is definitely the guy, but not all of you here seem to be convinced of that, is that correct? And if so, what would those of you who are doubtful say about MJK----Coincidence? Copycat?

 

[margarita25]

haha, Sapphire, see my post above---I just asked about this, lol.

I know you guys have been discussing here for a long time, and its probably all stated above in a gazillion threads, but can you please possibly just summarize for a nonregular in this thread (but one who followed Kathlynn's case) what those reasons are in a nutshell? TIA.

 

[SapphireSteel]

My reservations about MJK have always been -

I have my perp, and he's far, far closer to home.
MJK is a disorganised offender, L&L's was organised.
I don't believe L&L's is a sexually motivated crime.

All of the above is my opinion only!

 

[carbuff]

I see no evidence whatsoever that L&E's abduction was organized in any way.

It certainly could have been, but it could have been a truly random grab, also.

There's no evidence. There's just no evidence.

 

[Foxfire]

RE: Other abductions/assaults:
When MJK was arrested in TX, after the abduction of the two 3 year old girls and 21 year old Lori Rattay in 1991, he had a rope and bloody quilt in his possession.
_______________________________________-

http://www.wdtn.com/news/national/iowa-kidnapping-suspect-probed-in-cousins-deaths_09818963

Iowa kidnapping suspect probed in cousins' deaths
Updated: Thursday, 23 May 2013, 5:15 PM EDT

IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) &#8212; The man suspected of kidnapping a still-missing 15-year-old Iowa girl and her friend as they walked home from school is being scrutinized in last year's unsolved kidnapping of two young cousins whose bodies were found 100 miles away.

One reason investigators are interested: It's extremely rare to abduct multiple children at once, and police say Michael J. Klunder has done that at least twice.

 

[margarita25]

For me personally I think MJK is way too much of a doof to pull off the abduction and murder of L&L. He's a bumbling idiot who has been caught in (as far as we know so far) EVERY SINGLE crime he tried to pull off.

He's plea bargained his way out of crimes that would have allowed him to be watched as closely as he should have been.

Call it a breakdown in the system, or whatever you want...he is an idiot who got caught every single time he tried to fulfill his urges.

Sure, he looks like he's be a shoe in when it comes to the fact that there were TWO girls taken...but remove THAT aspect of the two cases and you've got ZERO in common between L&L's case and any past crimes committed by him.

I think this crime against L&L was very well planned, I think the girls went willingly with their abductor and it was too late before they realized they were in serious danger and had no way to cry for help or get away when their final moments came upon them.

I always think this is an interesting aspect of studying cases----the perp's list of crimes and the similarities they may or may not possess to each other...one thing I've learned is how unrelated a list of perp's crimes can be from each other....for example, I've learned here that perps do not always have a preference for a certain age group (ARS), gender, or ethnicity (RAT)...(not that you are referring to this, I'm just saying)...or disposal method (Travis Forbes)...

It's odd to see lists on some perps' records, for instance burgarly, arson, but perhaps not anything that seems overly similar to what the perp may be currently charged with....hope I'm making sense. JMO.

And there is always the dynamic of crime escalation over time and a perp who may evolve in his methods...

I appreciate this discussion and you guys answering my questions.

 

[Foxfire]

My reservations about MJK have always been -

I have my perp, and he's far, far closer to home.
MJK is a disorganised offender, L&L's was organised.
I don't believe L&L's is a sexually motivated crime.

All of the above is my opinion only!

There are 3 classifications of offenders; organized, disorganized, mixed/hybrid

Sexual predators/serial killers have become much more aware of investigative strategies, forensics contamination, etc., and will alter their behavior and modes of operation to create confusion to prevent detection..

 

[24Roses]

Dan's hearing is coming up and his lawyer has requested part of it be closed to the public.

I wonder why...plea deals aren't unusual, but it seems this one is.

The CA wants no part of it, either.


Assistant County Attorney Brad Walz resisted the request to close a portion of the sentencing.
“The state hasn’t been able to find precedent in closing a proceeding like this,” Walz said.

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/cr...cle_b576a314-1180-11e3-a7c6-0019bb2963f4.html

Nothing about this case is straightforward. :cow:

I have thought from the beginning that L & E's disappearance & murder had nothing to do with DM, but this does make me wonder. The evidence that investigators don't want released to the public either has to do with another person's drug arrest & they could retaliate against Dan either in prison or out or it could have to do with E & L, but investigators don't have enough evidence for an arrest even with D's help. :moo:

 

[Bootsctr]

I actually read this book just a few months ago. Several things amazed me as to how the investigation was handled...with the biggest shock being how much weight investigators put into Toole's words.

It made me wonder more and more how many alibis aren't actually verified with PROOF versus taking the words of people. Just because someone SAYS they have an alibi doesn't necessarily mean it checks out. These people are manipulators - not to mention the fact that their alibis are often criminals/sketchy people themselves.

I'm not sure what investigators can really do though. If someone SAYS they were at so and so's house, they grilled out, watched a movie, etc...how can they prove they were NOT there without some proof to back it up? They can't. :banghead:

That could very well be the case with the girls. No one knows exactly what time these girls went missing. If the killer took the girls to his home, tied them up, or even killed them quickly he could have been over to someone's house within the hour...before the girls were ever even reported missing!

If he was over at, say, his girlfriends or mother's house, do you think either of them are going to call their son/boyfriend in? Highly unlikely IMO. Loved ones don't WANT to believe they love someone who is capable of this.

He could have been there for the entire afternoon...and that Friday night he went home, loaded them up, and dumped them under the cover of night. Done deal.

I don't think LE knows the time of death, or even the DATE of their death...and unless they release a VERY specific time these girls lives were taken I think anyone who is even IFFY about someone - they aren't going to contact LE. They would more than likely CHOOSE to believe this person wasn't possibly capable of such a stunt and actually pull it off...without LE telling us "this is the time these girls were taken" they aren't going to turn in their loved one.

Just jumping off your post 3CK to say I totally agree with you. I believe the perp has been questioned, but has an alibi and a friend or family member is covering for him.

Just watched a case on CNN regarding the "oldest cold case." The perp was questioned in the very beginning "after Maria Ridulph vanished from a small-town street corner while playing in the snow, a former neighbor was sentenced to life in prison for kidnapping and killing the brown-eyed second-grader." http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/10/justice/oldest-cold-case-sentencing/

Jack Daniel McCullough, who was 17 and known as John Tessier back in 1957, was finally identified two years ago by Maria's childhood companion as "Johnny," the blond man with the ducktail haircut who offered the girls piggyback rides and carried Maria off into oblivion.

McCullough's youngest sister, a baby at the time of the crime, contacted an Illinois State Police tip line in 2008 and told investigators that her dying mother had pulled her close in her hospital room years earlier and, referring to Ridulph's murder, said, "John did it. John did it, and you have to tell someone."

Janet Tessier added that her mother was agitated and emotional at the time and "expressed a great deal of guilt," according to a transcript obtained by CNN.

I feel L&L perp is right under LE's nose. Someone is covering for him or her or them. Hopefully it won't take 56 years for someone to come forward with the truth.

ETA: The disappearance of the 7-year-old with the perfect Sunday school attendance was national news for a while as 1,000 volunteers scoured fields of corn stubble for clues. Maria's remains were found in the spring by a retired couple looking for mushrooms under the melting snow. She was 120 miles from home, in a field near the town of Galena and not far from a river campground where the Tessier family spent vacations.

 

[Bootsctr]

I have thought from the beginning that L & E's disappearance & murder had nothing to do with DM, but this does make me wonder. The evidence that investigators don't want released to the public either has to do with another person's drug arrest & they could retaliate against Dan either in prison or out or it could have to do with E & L, but investigators don't have enough evidence for an arrest even with D's help. :moo:

Ditto! Show me the evidence they said they had against DM! "The proof." This happened on the Collins' turf. Still think it could be someone Elizabeth was familiar with at church, more familiar than the family was aware. . . or maybe the family does know, but just don't want to hear those details. Love, peace, butterflies and doves, etc. all. Something is not adding up with this so-called "investigation."

ETA: Just all my opinion. . .

 

[threecrazykids]

Just jumping off your post 3CK to say I totally agree with you. I believe the perp has been questioned, but has an alibi and a friend or family member is covering for him.

Just watched a case on CNN regarding the "oldest cold case." The perp was questioned in the very beginning "after Maria Ridulph vanished from a small-town street corner while playing in the snow, a former neighbor was sentenced to life in prison for kidnapping and killing the brown-eyed second-grader." http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/10/justice/oldest-cold-case-sentencing/

Jack Daniel McCullough, who was 17 and known as John Tessier back in 1957, was finally identified two years ago by Maria's childhood companion as "Johnny," the blond man with the ducktail haircut who offered the girls piggyback rides and carried Maria off into oblivion.

McCullough's youngest sister, a baby at the time of the crime, contacted an Illinois State Police tip line in 2008 and told investigators that her dying mother had pulled her close in her hospital room years earlier and, referring to Ridulph's murder, said, "John did it. John did it, and you have to tell someone."

Janet Tessier added that her mother was agitated and emotional at the time and "expressed a great deal of guilt," according to a transcript obtained by CNN.

I feel L&L perp is right under LE's nose. Someone is covering for him or her or them. Hopefully it won't take 56 years for someone to come forward with the truth.

ETA: The disappearance of the 7-year-old with the perfect Sunday school attendance was national news for a while as 1,000 volunteers scoured fields of corn stubble for clues. Maria's remains were found in the spring by a retired couple looking for mushrooms under the melting snow. She was 120 miles from home, in a field near the town of Galena and not far from a river campground where the Tessier family spent vacations.

I watched that too! I agree...this person/people have been questioned but have an "alibi". And unless LE can PROVE otherwise that this person isn't where they claim to be they are walking a grey line.

I think LE has an idea of who did this and IMO if this was some random freak walking the streets that LE felt would danger other children they would say as much. They have been too damn quiet IMO for this to be random. The only reason for the deafening silence (again, IMO) is because what they DO have they are protecting fiercely because it's ALL they can build a case on and it's only things the perp could know.

 

[SapphireSteel]

There are 3 classifications of offenders; organized, disorganized, mixed/hybrid

Sexual predators/serial killers have become much more aware of investigative strategies, forensics contamination, etc., and will alter their behavior and modes of operation to create confusion to prevent detection..

I don't think this is a sexually motivated or a serial type crime so none of that is relevant to my sleuthing. :dunno:

:moo: