IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

[SapphireSteel]

I know. At first, it was "we should know in a couple of weeks if Klunder was involved." Well, it's been more than a couple of weeks and I think we should know by now and it's driving me crazy. Seems if Klunder had access to a white SUV it would be known by now. Sometimes I get a weird feeling the perp is someone very close to the case too and very close to the family. LE from other counties talk like it is a sexual predator and the Drew and Heather say it was a sexual predator. I do know I don't like "we're not releasing that information" game because it just makes this case all the stranger. Could the perp be a woman?

It's fairly obvious it's not Klunder. The only thing LE like more than catching the perp is telling folks about it. We would have heard within the week :moo:

Also, his profile never fit. He's just too disorganised and impulsive.

I too believe a woman was involved in this...or women. :furious:

 

[nikb]

Thank you Just Pat! I agree with you that the girls made it to the lake too. I go back forth on Klunder. The fact that he had a stun gun bothers me too. I cannot rule him out, but feel that it was someone else. Like nikb, I feel it may have been someone who knew the girls, one better than the other. With you, Just Pat, and other WS's who care so much about Justice for Lyric and Elizabeth and their families getting some answers, I believe with all my :heartbeat: the :devil: or :devil::devil: who took these girls' lives will eventually be brought to justice.

BBM actually Pearl gets credit for that one, although I do agree with the point. Honestly I wouldn't be that surprised either way, finding out that it was a stranger, or finding out it was someone known to them. I go back and forth on it.

 

[watcher9]

This article on Klunder was posted just two months ago and mentions the possible connection between him and other cases including the murders of Lyric & Elizabeth. I have not heard of any info released on the other cases either but don't know which ones they are looking at either. He was released from prison Dec 25, 2011 and the two Dayton girls were taken on May 20, 2013 so I guess they have a big job in investigating Klunder's whereabouts for the 17 months interval especially if they go by his timeline rather than individual cases.

However, authorities aren’t sure there were not other victims. They continue to study a possible connection between Klunder and other cases, including the murders of Evansdale cousins Lyric Cook-Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins, whose remains were found in December. The girls disappeared in July 2012.

http://globegazette.com/news/local/...cle_36b8ec80-db89-11e2-acb2-0019bb2963f4.html


I don't know if Michael Klunder is the killer in this case, but I want to add his timeline for reference just in case. The story above and this timeline are linked together on the same page.

http://globegazette.com/news/local/...cle_b448708a-db89-11e2-bf27-0019bb2963f4.html

These articles were dated June 22, 2013.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

:winner: This is what I think too - that the bikes were moved by a well-meaning person. This is what threw a monkey wrench into the story for a lot of us. LE knows that the bikes were moved by a well-meaning person, but why should John Q. Public have to know that information? Staging absolutely over-complicates everything. The snatch, grab and drive as far away as the evil one can just works so well for them. Simple, yet effective and deadly for the victims.

I hope we get answers someday too. No one else deserves such a horrible fate and I believe the families and the community should get those answers. And the monster that did this should be put away until they die. :jail:

I totally agree with the above.

There are plenty of cases that show that the simplest grab and go is usually the most successful strategy by a predator. Elaborate staging means increasing the risk of leaving incriminating evidence behind. Anyone who rides a bike knows how everything sticks to the chain, so putting the bikes in a vehicle would have yielded lots of fibre evidence and possibly DNA evidence (say, from hair that the perp shed in the vehicle).

Also, if I were a parent and my child told me that s/he had moved the bicycles, I would tell the police but I'd swear them to confidentiality. I wouldn't want anyone to know that my child had any firsthand knowledge of the crime scene at all. While intellectually I know that very, very few perps engage in witness tampering, it does happen sometimes.

Even as an adult, I'd be reluctant to have my name in the media. One possible witness did allow his name to get out there and in return for doing his civic duty, his name has been dragged through the mud. Who would willingly sign up for that after watching someone else go through it?

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Absolutely Aunt TB loved the girls! In fact, if she had actually been in charge of watching the girls that day, I believe she would have known for a fact where the girls were or would have been headed. She is the one who had the wherewithal to instruct the girls about what to do if someone did try to grab them - I just think her training was incomplete in the girls' situation - for example, stranger danger when the person is not really a stranger in the girls' minds. Or if it was a person impersonating a cop, etc. Or someone saying they lost their kitty or puppy could really be the devil in disguise...

Also, the need to roleplay and act out various scenarios and options, so that the children being instructed actually do the things they are being told about. Not just once but many times, spread out over months and years.

Think of teaching children to put their dirty clothing in the laundry hamper. How many times a parent has to model it for the child, has to instruct the child on how to open the lid safely, has to walk them through the actions verbally ("pick up your T-shirt... good, now go over to the laundry hamper... good, now open it up and put your T-shirt in there... great! you did a good job!") and then has to prompt the child umpteen bajillion times to put their clothes in the laundry hamper.

Now compare that with how often people typically do the stranger danger talk. No comparison!

 

[nikb]

<respectfully snipped for space, and BBM>

Also, if I were a parent and my child told me that s/he had moved the bicycles, I would tell the police but I'd swear them to confidentiality. I wouldn't want anyone to know that my child had any firsthand knowledge of the crime scene at all. While intellectually I know that very, very few perps engage in witness tampering, it does happen sometimes.

Even as an adult, I'd be reluctant to have my name in the media. One possible witness did allow his name to get out there and in return for doing his civic duty, his name has been dragged through the mud. Who would willingly sign up for that after watching someone else go through it?

BBM honestly before this case I wouldn't have even thought about it much. Now? No way I'd talk to the media, and I sure as heck wouldn't let my kids (if I had any) talk to them. I'd talk to LE in a heartbeat, though, asking them to keep my name confidential. I hope that others who might've seen anything talked to LE.

 

[nikb]

Also, the need to roleplay and act out various scenarios and options, so that the children being instructed actually do the things they are being told about. Not just once but many times, spread out over months and years.

Think of teaching children to put their dirty clothing in the laundry hamper. How many times a parent has to model it for the child, has to instruct the child on how to open the lid safely, has to walk them through the actions verbally ("pick up your T-shirt... good, now go over to the laundry hamper... good, now open it up and put your T-shirt in there... great! you did a good job!") and then has to prompt the child umpteen bajillion times to put their clothes in the laundry hamper.

Now compare that with how often people typically do the stranger danger talk. No comparison!

Really good points. Heck even as an adult and even after reading here on WS I know I've done some potentially stupid things, and been lucky. I've probably avoided even more risky things. I can almost guarantee kids do risky things even more often. It might not take a puppy, kitty, ice cream cone, or whatever... if they saw the person(s) as an authority figure/authority figures, or a friend, they might be way too easy to grab. IMO a stranger danger talk or two might help, but it probably wouldn't stop something from happening to them.

I'm not blaming anyone but the <ahem, censored> who did something to these girls, not at all! They were at such vulnerable ages, and there's something very positive to be said for trusting other people. Where do parents even draw that line? Trust people but don't help them find their puppy? (random example) IMO mix hard choices with horribly bad luck, if this was a random stranger thing.

 

[Foxfire]

Thank you Just Pat! I agree with you that the girls made it to the lake too. I go back forth on Klunder. The fact that he had a stun gun bothers me too. I cannot rule him out, but feel that it was someone else. Like nikb, I feel it may have been someone who knew the girls, one better than the other. With you, Just Pat, and other WS's who care so much about Justice for Lyric and Elizabeth and their families getting some answers, I believe with all my :heartbeat: the :devil: or :devil::devil: who took these girls' lives will eventually be brought to justice.

RE: The fact that he had a stun gun bothers me too..

The euthanizing gun was mistaken for a firearm by KS & DH in the Dayton, Iowa abduction. Imo, the Medical Examiner should be able to determine the type instrument/weapon used if the COD was due to blunt force trauma in L & L deaths..
MJ Klunder; a felon would be prohibited from being in possession of a firearm, yet would not be in violation for possessing a euthanizing gun; a requirement of his gainful employment..
<sniped from article> Searchers also found Klunder's gun Wednesday where the 12-year-old told them they would find it.

Read more: http://www.ketv.com/news/local-news.../20271830/-/rkt52j/-/index.html#ixzz2dAK2kIgq

<Warning Very Graphic>

The term &#8220;euthanasia&#8221; is derived from
the Greek terms &#8220;eu&#8221; meaning good and
&#8220;thanatos&#8221; meaning death. Euthanasia
is the humane process whereby the swine
is rendered insensible, with minimal
pain and distress, until death. For the
euthanasia process or method to be
considered humane, it must be quick,
effective and reliable.

Key elements
for determining if a method is humane
include:
&#8226; minimal pain and distress
during administration
&#8226; rapid loss of consciousness,
&#8226; death is achieved quickly and
consistently.

See page 14: Exsanguination & Pithing &#8211;

http://www.aasv.org/aasv/documents/SwineEuthanasia.pdf

 

[Foxfire]

Imo, MJ Klunder's characteristics fits the organized vs the disorganized profile.. Many sexual predators/serial killers are classified as Mixed; Org/Disorg combination..

ORGANIZED
IQ above average, 105-120 range
socially adequate
lives with partner or dates frequently
stable father figure
family physical abuse, harsh
geographically/occupationally mobile
follows the news media
may be college educated
good hygiene/housekeeping skills
does not usually keep a hiding place
diurnal (daytime) habits
drives a flashy car
needs to return to crime scene to see what police have done
usually contacts police to play games
a police groupie or wanabee
doesn&#8217;t experiment with self-help
kills at one site, disposes at another
may dismember body
attacks using seduction into restraints
keeps personal, holds a conversation
leaves a controlled crime scene
leaves little physical evidence

DISORGANIZED
IQ below average, 80-95 range
socially inadequate
lives alone, usually does not date
absent or unstable father
family emotional abuse, inconsistent
lives and/or works near crime scene
minimal interest in news media
usually a high school dropout
poor hygiene/housekeeping skills
keeps a secret hiding place in the home
nocturnal (nighttime) habits
drives a clunky car or pickup truck
needs to return to crime scene for reliving memories
may contact victim&#8217;s family to play games
no interest in police work
experiments with self-help programs
kills at one site, considers mission over
usually leaves body intact
attacks in a &#8220;blitz&#8221; pattern
depersonalizes victim to a thing or it
leaves a chaotic crime scene
leaves physical evidence

- See more at: http://twistedminds.creativescapism...ypology/characteristics/#sthash.NWejowVa.dpuf

 

[Foxfire]

<sniped & BBM>
Inside the mind of a killer

Either as an forensic scientist or as an evaluative psychiatrist Dr. Helen Morrison, has worked on 135 serial killing cases around the world, starting in the late 1970s. She has been involved in some infamous cases, including that of John Wayne Gacy. The Chicago, Illinois, man, who often dressed up as a clown at charitable events, was convicted in 1980 of raping and killing 33 boys and young men he had lured into his home over a period of six years.

Morrison says of her research of killers who have committed seven or more homicides, the cases are eerily similar.

Eventually, Morrison's research led her to the brain, looking for the reasons why serial killers kill. She was one of the doctors who performed Gacy's autopsy, and she removed his brain for experimentation. Gacy's brain did not yield any notable scientific findings. However, this hasn't changed Morrison&#8217;s theory that the brain may hold the answers. She now wants to conduct research on live serial killers that&#8217;s not unlike the electrode experiment done last summer on people suffering from depression.

"So, that [electrode experiment] kinda follows my theory that there is a part of the brain that is triggered by some genetic change -- not inheriting a gene," she says. "You don't inherit the gene like blue eyes or brown hair. But, a change in the gene itself, an epigenetic change. And that acts with the hormones, the developmental aspects of the person. And at some point there is a trigger that we don't know in adolescence. The first murders occur in the years 15 to 19."

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/08...e-control-them
______________________________________

"I agree with the age window that a serial killer crosses the threshold except that it should be between 14 - 19, imo". G Ridgeway, G Hilton, T Bundy, and Edmund Kemper are only four examples. There are many more..

Either way MJ Klunder crossed the threshold as a sexual predator within this age window by the age of 15 or 16. His first victim was left for dead, but miraculously survived the violent attack by MJK... If his first known victim had died after his violent attack or if he is tied to L & L's abduction/murders, or others. MJK will join the ranks of the many serial killers prior as defined by the FBI BAU in 2005..

 

[Fukiyama]

So is there so many twists and turns or is there lack of info to run on? Which is it, folks?

This goes back to what I posted awhile ago about the competence of LE. Obviously a lot of talented people from various agencies are on the case. However, the comments made to the press so easily give the impression of incompetence that it's just hard to not believe that the Keystone Kops are not on the case instead. There is Smock contradicting himself and there is the DCI guy explaining why the white SUV tips were only coming out almost a year later.

"There (are) just a lot of reports, a lot of information to read through," said Mike Roehrkasse with the Iowa Department of Criminal Investigation. "Now that there's a little bit of a lull, we are able to start pouring through those reports and make those connections."

If there had been a steady stream of stuff coming out, that'd be one thing. If LE had been radio silent from day one, that also would be a definite something we could wrap ourselves around. Some may not agree with it, but it would be something.

But what we have going on doesn't feel like anything at all besides grasping at straws.

 

[B4igo2it]

few clues makes me believe we are dealing with an experienced pedophile that may have committed this act in the past, or someone who meticulously planned this abduction to prevent leaving any clues behind.

The victims were placed in a location where there is a good chance they would be discovered ... I find it hard to believe they lie there 4-5 months without being discovered. Certainly there were visitors to the area prior to hunting season? It surprises me that LE has not asked anyone to come forward that had visited 7 Bridges area in the months leading up to the discovery. Wouldn't you think LE would ask the public if they saw anyone/thing (vehicle) suspicious in the area in the previous months?

 

[Foxfire]

few clues makes me believe we are dealing with an experienced pedophile that may have committed this act in the past, or someone who meticulously planned this abduction to prevent leaving any clues behind.

The victims were placed in a location where there is a good chance they would be discovered ... I find it hard to believe they lie there 4-5 months without being discovered. Certainly there were visitors to the area prior to hunting season? It surprises me that LE has not asked anyone to come forward that had visited 7 Bridges area in the months leading up to the discovery. Wouldn't you think LE would ask the public if they saw anyone/thing (vehicle) suspicious in the area in the previous months?

http://qctimes.com/news/state-and-r...cle_2e8a07f6-3f26-11e2-8b49-001a4bcf887a.html
<sniped & BBM>
December 07, 2012 5:00 pm • JEFF REINITZ, Waterloo Courier(25) Comments

July 13 2012 Elizabeth and Lyric abducted...
July 14-15

Hundreds of volunteers scour the Evansdale area for any sign of Elizabeth and Lyric, covering about 12 square miles.

July 21

The FBI states agents believe the girls are still alive.

EVANSDALE, Iowa --- The tragic discovery of the two bodies believed to be those of the missing cousins has allowed authorities to narrow their investigation.

“This discovery doesn’t end this investigation, it just begins a new chapter,” said Black Hawk County Sheriff Tony Thompson.

He said the development gives authorities the ability to “draw conclusions off what we already know, and some of the people we already talked to and likely open up additional avenues for us to purse. That’s fantastic, because we were chasing down leads that were a lot of times ended up being vaporous for us. Now we’re are able to commit a concerted effort in a single direction.”

Since July 13 — when Lyric Cook-Morrissey, 10, and Elizabeth Collins, 8, were last seen riding their bikes in Evansdale — detectives have chased even the most far-fetched tips as the investigation has gone from a missing person case to an abduction probe to a presumed homicide case.

Neighbors said the out-of-the-way park sees little traffic, with the exception of hunting season.

Even if it had been checked, it would have been difficult to find the bodies, Thompson said.

“It’s pretty rough up there,” he said. “The location of where those bodies were found, if those hunters had moved five feet either direction, they wouldn’t have seen them.”

 

[pearl]

few clues makes me believe we are dealing with an experienced pedophile that may have committed this act in the past, or someone who meticulously planned this abduction to prevent leaving any clues behind.

The victims were placed in a location where there is a good chance they would be discovered ... I find it hard to believe they lie there 4-5 months without being discovered. Certainly there were visitors to the area prior to hunting season? It surprises me that LE has not asked anyone to come forward that had visited 7 Bridges area in the months leading up to the discovery. Wouldn't you think LE would ask the public if they saw anyone/thing (vehicle) suspicious in the area in the previous months?

BBM
I agree. Most of the men in my family are hunters who either hunt the same places each year or go to a new place. Wherever they hunt, they visit the places many times before actual hunting season starts. I don't live in Iowa so I don't know the hunting laws there. They don't expect to just walk into a hunting place and luck up on an animal. They track, put up cameras, etc, before hunting season starts. I have viewed the videos of the 7 Bridges area. Yes, it is a wilderness area. However, to me, it doesn't look like it doesn't often have visitors who know how to navigate it. I do agree with those who feel the perp has a prior history with the place.

 

[threecrazykids]

BBM
I agree. Most of the men in my family are hunters who either hunt the same places each year or go to a new place. Wherever they hunt, they visit the places many times before actual hunting season starts. I don't live in Iowa so I don't know the hunting laws there. They don't expect to just walk into a hunting place and luck up on an animal. They track, put up cameras, etc, before hunting season starts. I have viewed the videos of the 7 Bridges area. Yes, it is a wilderness area. However, to me, it doesn't look like it doesn't often have visitors who know how to navigate it. I do agree with those who feel the perp has a prior history with the place.

After being there, I will agree with LE that they could have easily been missed...it is super dense and tall growth, not to mention more than likely poison ivy riddled if you went off any beaten path.

Another thing that got me thinking is that IF this person did carry the girls in after they were killed then it would have to have been late at night during that time of year.
It doesn't get really dark until after 9 in July. I checked one website that has sunset on July 13,2012 at 8:41 pm. But that still isn't DARK. Anyone would easily identify someone carrying a body in that light.

So my guess is they likely did this after 9:30/10pm...and that is IF this person didn't walk them in alive. And IMO that is a huge IF.

 

[Foxfire]

http://formercriminalprosecutor.blogspot.ca/2012/10/where-are-missing-iowa-cousins-lyric.html

WS referenced several times...

Thanx for sharing, dotr... Interesting read..... "When will they learn that silence is the predator's most lethal weapon"???

<sniped & BBM from article linked>

THE BEST TIME TO INFORM THE PUBLIC & REQUEST HELP IS WHEN THE KILLINGS ARE FRESH IN PEOPLE'S MINDS. WHEN THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO CONNECT A DOT IF IT WAS SHOWN TO THEM RIGHT AWAY!!

There are so many unsolved cases, The Charley Project highlights more than 9,000 of them. If you are interested in the thousands of cold cases presented by The Charley Project, please have a look. A lot of young kids go missing, all the time. Their families mourn them. Perhaps Lyric & Lizzie will make this "official" list in time. Which is sad because it means that the lack of cooperation from Law Enforcement has lead to a cold case, unsolved: with a predator still free & on the prowl.

http://www.charleyproject.org/

 

[Foxfire]

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Arrests-in-Missing-Cousins-Case-a-Rumor--183812791.html

Story Created: Dec 17, 2012 at 12:16 PM CST
Story Updated: Dec 17, 2012 at 12:26 PM CST

Short article at link

<sniped from article linked above & BBM for focus>

If/When an arrest is made;
the families and public will be notified through official correspondence and only through official channels.

_______________________________
If/When
'Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot'..??

 

[Foxfire]

L & L Discussion thread is open for posting....

 

[NWLady]

L & L Discussion thread is open for posting....

May I ask, what is L & L Discussion thread?

Thank you.

 

[nikb]

May I ask, what is L & L Discussion thread?

Thank you.

Lizzie and Lyric Discussion thread (as in this thread). But I'm confused as to why this was posted...