IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

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A child is in much more danger from any number of things that do not include abduction by a stranger.

My sister and I witnessed the aftermath of a horrible accident once. We were in the mall and this mother who had a child about the same age as my nephew gave my sister the look of disdain and made a snide comment about how she would never treat her child like a dog. We were slowly heading out of the mall and that woman with her child got ahead of us by maybe 30 seconds.

When we went outside, we heard screaming for help. My sister is a doctor so she handed my nephew's leading rein to me and went to see if she could help while I distracted her son.

That little boy had been tempted by something and darted out directly in front of a city bus. He hit his head very hard on the fender and was not responding. My sister did CPR on him until the ambulance came but said she didn't get a flicker of response, so it didn't look hopeful.

My nephew got the surprise of his life when we went back into the mall and bought him an ice cream. We had to wait for the police so my sister could give a statement and we both wanted to spoil him. More than wanted, we needed to spoil him.

Children are in much more danger from common things like five gallon buckets with liquid in them, toilets, dressers that can tip, being in a parking lot, etc, etc, than they are from abduction by stranger. Nothing can completely protect a child but there are things that can decrease risks.

So true! I have a friend whose eldest daughter had ADHD to the max. They had a hard time keeping up with the precocious little one and used a safety harness on outings. She is a very smart young woman and ended up graduating high school two years early.
 
Oh my, how horrifying. And yes, excellent point about the other dangers.

I started using the safety harness after an incident with a friend of mine. We were out shopping. She was holding her 2.5-year-old daughter by the hand while we waited for a light to change. The daughter jumped off the curb -- down about four inches -- and when her mom pulled her back, her shoulder popped out of the socket. Most pathetic sound I've ever heard in my life. The poor little thing cried and cried. No lasting effects, than goodness...

Oh my, that makes me wince and rub my own shoulder in sympathy pain. Poor little girl, that must have hurt so badly. And poor mama, she must have felt so guilt stricken.
 
http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/serialkillers/profiling.htm

What I Do
By John Douglas

Profiling: Fact vs. Fiction

During my first years with the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit (later called the Investigative Support Unit) in the late 1970's, the word "profiling" hardly existed, not in the sense that it does now.
I think it's become a familiar concept to most people these days, thanks to my books those by my former associates, television shows, movies, and other media. But a lot of people have misconceptions about profiling—either an overblown sense that we close our eyes and magically "see" the crime we're investigating as it occurred, or a restricted notion that all we do is create profiles of subjects who are unknown and at large.

Proactive Techniques: Reaching out to the Public

This is just one function we perform. As I mentioned, to see that as all we do is a limited view. In fact, toward the end of my career in the FBI, I was doing fewer and fewer of those sorts of profiles. We were doing a lot more crime scene analyses, crime reconstructions, and spending more time developing and incorporating proactive techniques for ongoing investigations.

These proactive techniques are among the most exciting advances we've made. Sometimes we'll use the amazing power of the media to get potentially identifying information, like copies of handwritten notes and descriptions of probable post-offense behavior, about the criminals we're looking for out to the public.

Somebody out there knows something about our UNSUB or about a suspect, but they may not fully realize it. They may need us to connect the dots, to present some information that will help them understand what may to that point have been no more than a funny feeling or vague suspicion they've had about their brother, boyfriend, aunt, co-worker, and so on.

In one instance, at the suggestion of Jana Monroe, an extraordinary agent in my unit, we publicized an UNSUB's handwriting by mounting a billboard campaign in Tampa Bay, Florida, the location of the 1989 murders of Joan Rogers and her two daughters, who were vacationing in the area.

We posted an excerpt from directions we knew the UNSUB had written by hand on a brochure and given to the victims, and which was found in their car. Within three days, witnesses had come forward to identify the person whose handwriting they recognized from the publicized excerpt, and they all named the same man—Oba Chandler, who was convicted of the three murders in 1994 and is now sitting on Florida's death row
 
I'm sorry. That's interesting, but what does it have to do with Lyric and Elizabeth?
 
I'm sorry. That's interesting, but what does it have to do with Lyric and Elizabeth?


carbuff, imo silence by investigators is why there has not been a successful conclusion, POI, or Suspect in L & L's case after over a year. The BHCSO/BCI/FBI have squandered their most valuable investigative resource; the American public...

John Douglas Quote:
These proactive techniques are among the most exciting advances we've made. Sometimes we'll use the amazing power of the media to get potentially identifying information, like copies of handwritten notes and descriptions of probable post-offense behavior, about the criminals we're looking for out to the public.
 
These proactive techniques are among the most exciting advances we've made. Sometimes we'll use the amazing power of the media to get potentially identifying information, like copies of handwritten notes and descriptions of probable post-offense behavior, about the criminals we're looking for out to the public.

Well, yes, if they have specific information the public could help identify. Nobody is arguing about that.

But that is a mighty big IF in most cases, and in this case, it's even larger. We seem to be looking at the sad possibility that there's no specific information to release. Even the bit about the white SUV is too vague to be helpful.
 
Well, yes, if they have specific information the public could help identify. Nobody is arguing about that.

But that is a mighty big IF in most cases, and in this case, it's even larger. We seem to be looking at the sad possibility that there's no specific information to release. Even the bit about the white SUV is too vague to be helpful.


Imo, the release of the white SUV VOI, almost a year after L & L's abduction is an indicator of the close to the vest antiquated investigative strategy utilized in L & L's case..
Over 1,000 tips were received, and two crime scenes were investigated, as well as a probable offender profile of the abductor prepared by the FBI BAU CARD team.. This info serves no useful purpose sitting in a cold case file catching dust, imo... You have to collect the dots to connect the dots..
 
carbuff, imo silence by investigators is why there has not been a successful conclusion, POI, or Suspect in L & L's case after over a year. The BHCSO/BCI/FBI have squandered their most valuable investigative resource; the American public...

John Douglas Quote:
These proactive techniques are among the most exciting advances we've made. Sometimes we'll use the amazing power of the media to get potentially identifying information, like copies of handwritten notes and descriptions of probable post-offense behavior, about the criminals we're looking for out to the public.


Isn't John Douglas the "profiler" who came out and said the Ramseys were innocent and an IDI?

The same guy they paid to say they were innocent? He was on their payroll. :furious:

He's got about as much credibility as my cat.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/green8.htm


:lol:
 
Imo, the release of the white SUV VOI, almost a year after L & L's abduction is an indicator of the close to the vest antiquated investigative strategy utilized in L & L's case..
Over 1,000 tips were received, and two crime scenes were investigated, as well as a probable offender profile of the abductor prepared by the FBI BAU CARD team.. This info serves no useful purpose sitting in a cold case file catching dust, imo... You have to collect the dots to connect the dots..

I doubt these investigators are sitting around playing poker and stubbing their cigars out on the "cold case file" :pullhair:

I think that they are doing their jobs to the best of their ability and perhaps know a little bit more about what's going on than us here at WS.

:twocents:
 
Isn't John Douglas the "profiler" who came out and said the Ramseys were innocent and an IDI?

The same guy they paid to say they were innocent? He was on their payroll. :furious:

He's got about as much credibility as my cat.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/green8.htm


:lol:

BBM

IMO he was bought and paid for...and, as far as credibility goes, you're greatly under estimating your cat.
 
Quote= SaphireSteel
Isn't John Douglas the "profiler" who came out and said the Ramseys were innocent and an IDI?

The same guy they paid to say they were innocent? He was on their payroll.

He's got about as much credibility as my cat.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/green8.htm


BBM

IMO he was bought and paid for...and, as far as credibility goes, you're greatly under estimating your cat.

John Douglas's consulted for both the prosecution and the defense in the JonBenét Ramsey murder..
<sniped & BBM - read more>

John Douglas joined the FBI in 1970 and his first assignment was in Detroit, Michigan. In the field, he served as a sniper on the local FBI SWAT team and later became a hostage negotiator. He transferred to the FBI's Behavioral Sciences Unit (BSU) in 1977 where he taught hostage negotiation and applied criminal psychology at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia to new FBI special agents, field agents, and police officers from all over the United States.

He created and managed the FBI's Criminal Profiling Program and was later promoted to unit chief of the Investigative Support Unit, a division of the FBI&#8217;s National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime (NCAVC).[1][2][3]
While traveling around the country providing instruction to police, Douglas began interviewing serial killers and other violent sex offenders at various prisons.

He interviewed some of the most notable violent criminals in recent history as part of the study, including David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Charles Manson, Lynette Fromme, Arthur Bremer, Sara Jane Moore, Edmund Kemper, James Earl Ray, Sirhan Sirhan, Dennis Rader, Richard Speck, Donald Harvey, and Joseph Paul Franklin.

He used the information gleaned from these interviews in the book Sexual Homicide: Patterns and Motives, followed by the Crime Classification Manual (CCM).
Douglas later received two Thomas Jefferson Awards for academic excellence from the University of Virginia for his work on the study.[1][2][3]

He also works as a consultant, most notably in the JonBenét Ramsey murder. His controversial analysis concluded that the Ramseys were not responsible for the death of their daughter. This was the first case in Douglas's career where he was requested to consult for both the prosecution and the defense. In July 2008 the Ramsey family were cleared as suspects after an analysis of DNA found on their daughter's undergarments did not match them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Douglas :cat:
 
:seeya:

Is there any topic we can rehash? This thread is getting too quiet, IMO.
 
:seeya:

Is there any topic we can rehash? This thread is getting too quiet, IMO.

Surely there's something! I agree with you, too quiet.

Swan shaped paddle boats? Or is it a pedal boat...?

Feral hogs?

Boxy white vehicles?
 
Surely there's something! I agree with you, too quiet.

Swan shaped paddle boats? Or is it a pedal boat...?

Feral hogs?

Boxy white vehicles?

Abduction scene staged vs. unstaged ?

Does everyone believe the girls did make it to the lake with the sighting of them on Brovan and now the white older model SUV of interesting being parked along Arbitus?
 
I can't speak for everyone but , I do believe the girls made it to the lake and that there was a vechicle parked around Brovan ? Maiden Lane.? I am not from there butI just feel the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time .I pray they find the perp that did this . Lyric & Elizabeth certainly deserve Justice .I personally can't rule Klunder out because he had a stun gun .I don't know but, I pray everyday our girls get justice .I am happy their memory and their fate is still in the new's and being discussed daily .Thanks to all you great caring and loving W/S's May we hear something soon. God know's who you are and your going to face the music for robbing those special children of their life's.God's going to see you pay for your crime.Were going to get you that did this...
 
It seems to me way back in Dec 2012 when the girls bodies were found there was a remark from possible one of the LE or the hunters that the bodies were quite recognizable concidering the length of time they were missing then found . Klunder had access to refrigeration unit's who know's how sick he really was?.Le should help the public by saying something yes we know their working on it what else? some new details would be great.Elizabeth and Lyric were still working on it you will see justice .RIP
 
Abduction scene staged vs. unstaged ?

Does everyone believe the girls did make it to the lake with the sighting of them on Brovan and now the white older model SUV of interesting being parked along Arbitus?

Oh good one.

I personally think they made it to the lake. I don't know if I'd call it staged, but I do think the bikes were probably moved, even if it was just by a well-meaning person who wanted to get them out of the way. I base this on the two different descriptions of the bikes, one saying they were laying across the path and the other saying they were upright. Complete staging to me seems so overly complicated, but that's strictly a gut feeling kind of thing.

All IMOO. I hope we find out someday. It's too late for the girls, but seems like it might help another kid or kids if we can find out what happened. Plus the girls and their loved ones deserve justice.
 
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