IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #33

[B4igo2it]

Okay, can we re-examine this part:
Didn't a WS Member visit this area and post photos of this area? Seems like we saw an area of fence that was removed and large enough for people to go under. (I may recall there was snow on the ground at that time)

From Nancy Grace transcripts: July 19, 2012 and yes, we already discussed the fact that Aunt T has no real concept of distance j/k - BBM

"BROUSSEAU: OK. So then we watched the investigators put the crime scene tape up. They were down there for a very long time. I would say approximately three hours, maybe more, you know, doing their investigation.

And we went back around to the southeast side of the lake, where you can actually -- there is an old, like, sewer building. There`s an old garage that sits on this chunk of land that you can actually very easily go down a few blocks and access the back of the lake area from -- from that point you can.

...

"BROUSSEAU: I just wanted to say one more thing, you know, about those bloodhounds that were brought in by the FBI. They did one at a time. One for Elizabeth and one for Lyric. And I was explain to you, so the bikes were found right where those -- the rocky area is, where they`re guessing the girls may have entered the lake at.

But I was there, I watched the bloodhounds continue on into this dense forest area, which is about 400 yards. I watched them go into that area and they positively identified both girls were at that location.

GRACE: Right, at the edge of the water.

BROUSSEAU: And --

GRACE: Go ahead.

BROUSSEAU: Yes, not, you know, not at the -- just at the edge of the water. If you continue on down the bike trail east, there is about approximately 400 acres of forest, dense forest to the left side, and that is where the dogs continued on to and picked up the girls` scent. And that`s when they stopped and brought the dog back and they did the next dog.

The next dog positively identified the next girl`s person to be in that forest. And that`s kind of where I believe it went cold for them. The dogs couldn`t pick up anymore scent. I`m not saying for sure that they couldn`t pick up more scent and go on further, but that is where the investigators stopped, brought the dogs back, told us that, yes, the dogs positively identified the girls to go past the site where the bikes were dropped and farther on into the forest."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/19/ng.01.html

Also from same transcript: Aunt T says, "We pulled into Meyers Lake, right about where Jim and I are standing. And I got up and just jumped out and started asking random people, Have you seen two little girls, one on a mountain bike, you know, gave the complete descriptions of them. And a man -- they have his name. I don`t know who he is. He said to me, Yes, I seen two little girls going west on the bike trail."

 

[pearl]

My opinion after these 13 long months.
I believe the perp is local and was known to both Elizabeth and Lyric---probably knew one girl better than the other---based on no known evidence, I think one or both girls knew something damaging about this person---have no idea if the girls even realized the info was damaging but the perp did---I think perp made contact with the girls earlier in the day and made plan to meet them at the lake---perp was waiting near the wooded area when the girls arrived and quickly gained physical control of the girls (stun gun maybe)---girls were taken somewhere close to but not in Evansdale and left in a securable place---perp then returned to the lake to be present and accounted for during the early search-probably did not actively search with a group but was on hand to monitor developments---probably returned to the lake several times in the early days and blended in with the increased foot traffic around the lake after the abduction---I think the girls could have been killed at different times---I think they were killed prior to being placed at Seven Bridges---I think due to the theory of transfer of evidence, LE may know who this perp is and are slowly and methodically building their case---I don't think it was Klunder
The above is my opinion only

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Surely there's something! I agree with you, too quiet.

Swan shaped paddle boats? Or is it a pedal boat...?

Feral hogs?

Boxy white vehicles?

I saw some surveillance video of an older white pickup with a white topper on it. I was really amazed because even when they froze the best still from the series, I honestly couldn't tell the difference from a white van.

I think it would be very possible for one or more witnesses to have gotten a glance of some sort of white vehicle on an ordinary summer afternoon and have stored in their memory something like "large boxy white vehicle." Later when they realise that it might be an important lead, their memory may have filled in one or more details (and it is well known how memory works).

Given that, I can see how it is they can't just run a computer search to find the owners of such a vehicle. Just too little information that could apply to way too many vehicles to do an effective database search on. It would be like using the driver's license database to find a man with brown eyes. The problem would be way too many hits to check out in any meaningful manner.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Abduction scene staged vs. unstaged ?

Does everyone believe the girls did make it to the lake with the sighting of them on Brovan and now the white older model SUV of interesting being parked along Arbitus?

I've always felt they were abducted from the lake because any theory that hinged on transporting the bicycles there to mislead investigators seemed to me to be too complex to work.

I think the abduction scene was not staged by the perp because it appears to me that LE did not get much in the way of evidence from the scene. If the bikes were moved, my hunch is that it was by someone who did so innocently, without realising they were interfering in a crime scene.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Okay, can we re-examine this part:
Didn't a WS Member visit this area and post photos of this area? Seems like we saw an area of fence that was removed and large enough for people to go under. (I may recall there was snow on the ground at that time)

From Nancy Grace transcripts: July 19, 2012 and yes, we already discussed the fact that Aunt T has no real concept of distance j/k - BBM

"BROUSSEAU: OK. So then we watched the investigators put the crime scene tape up. They were down there for a very long time. I would say approximately three hours, maybe more, you know, doing their investigation.

And we went back around to the southeast side of the lake, where you can actually -- there is an old, like, sewer building. There`s an old garage that sits on this chunk of land that you can actually very easily go down a few blocks and access the back of the lake area from -- from that point you can.

...

"BROUSSEAU: I just wanted to say one more thing, you know, about those bloodhounds that were brought in by the FBI. They did one at a time. One for Elizabeth and one for Lyric. And I was explain to you, so the bikes were found right where those -- the rocky area is, where they`re guessing the girls may have entered the lake at.

But I was there, I watched the bloodhounds continue on into this dense forest area, which is about 400 yards. I watched them go into that area and they positively identified both girls were at that location.

GRACE: Right, at the edge of the water.

BROUSSEAU: And --

GRACE: Go ahead.

BROUSSEAU: Yes, not, you know, not at the -- just at the edge of the water. If you continue on down the bike trail east, there is about approximately 400 acres of forest, dense forest to the left side, and that is where the dogs continued on to and picked up the girls` scent. And that`s when they stopped and brought the dog back and they did the next dog.

The next dog positively identified the next girl`s person to be in that forest. And that`s kind of where I believe it went cold for them. The dogs couldn`t pick up anymore scent. I`m not saying for sure that they couldn`t pick up more scent and go on further, but that is where the investigators stopped, brought the dogs back, told us that, yes, the dogs positively identified the girls to go past the site where the bikes were dropped and farther on into the forest."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/19/ng.01.html

Also from same transcript: Aunt T says, "We pulled into Meyers Lake, right about where Jim and I are standing. And I got up and just jumped out and started asking random people, Have you seen two little girls, one on a mountain bike, you know, gave the complete descriptions of them. And a man -- they have his name. I don`t know who he is. He said to me, Yes, I seen two little girls going west on the bike trail."

Makes me wish that Aunt TB had participated in debate when she was in high school. Something to hone her verbal skills and impart a basic sense of correct grammar.

I truly do believe she is well meaning but reading her remarks gives me a headache. And way too many questions because she says stuff that can be taken 3 or 4 or more different ways. I don't think she's deliberately trying to obfuscate, I think she doesn't have enough training in verbal communication.

It's clear she loves those girls. And was willing to stand up and be mocked just to get the message out.

 

[nikb]

I saw some surveillance video of an older white pickup with a white topper on it. I was really amazed because even when they froze the best still from the series, I honestly couldn't tell the difference from a white van.

I think it would be very possible for one or more witnesses to have gotten a glance of some sort of white vehicle on an ordinary summer afternoon and have stored in their memory something like "large boxy white vehicle." Later when they realise that it might be an important lead, their memory may have filled in one or more details (and it is well known how memory works).

Given that, I can see how it is they can't just run a computer search to find the owners of such a vehicle. Just too little information that could apply to way too many vehicles to do an effective database search on. It would be like using the driver's license database to find a man with brown eyes. The problem would be way too many hits to check out in any meaningful manner.

Jumping off of your post, along these lines, possibly of interest... we took the dog for a walk tonight, and there were a half dozen or so white minivans/trucks/vans in the lot. We don't live anywhere near Lizzie and Lyric, but ever since their case I've tried to not only be vigilant but notice WHAT I'm being vigilant about. I stayed in the car while hubby walked the dog, and one person/van was acting IMO really creepy. I asked hubby "what's with the stalker van?" and he immediately assumed it was one of the white ones - not the burgundy one that was driving around slowly and kept stopping for no apparent reason. I can see the preconceived "creepy white van" notion really messing with someone's memory. I wish we knew what exactly this person or people saw.

 

[watcher9]

It seems to me way back in Dec 2012 when the girls bodies were found there was a remark from possible one of the LE or the hunters that the bodies were quite recognizable concidering the length of time they were missing then found . Klunder had access to refrigeration unit's who know's how sick he really was?.Le should help the public by saying something yes we know their working on it what else? some new details would be great.Elizabeth and Lyric were still working on it you will see justice .RIP

Did we ever determine if there were even any refrigeration units at the hog confinement sites he had access to?

I am still leaning toward Klunder, maybe because he is the only person we have to work with. He was easily able to take the two girls from Dayton and from my understanding no one knew the girls were even missing until the younger one was able to escape and sound the alarm. Was her escape due to Klunder's carelessness or was he just overconfident since he had done this before? If she had been unable to escape, would we be looking at another unsolved double kidnapping and murder case?

http://www.floridatoday.com/usatoday/article/2403691

 

[Bootsctr]

I can't speak for everyone but , I do believe the girls made it to the lake and that there was a vechicle parked around Brovan ? Maiden Lane.? I am not from there butI just feel the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time .I pray they find the perp that did this . Lyric & Elizabeth certainly deserve Justice .I personally can't rule Klunder out because he had a stun gun .I don't know but, I pray everyday our girls get justice .I am happy their memory and their fate is still in the new's and being discussed daily .Thanks to all you great caring and loving W/S's May we hear something soon. God know's who you are and your going to face the music for robbing those special children of their life's.God's going to see you pay for your crime.Were going to get you that did this...

Thank you Just Pat! I agree with you that the girls made it to the lake too. I go back forth on Klunder. The fact that he had a stun gun bothers me too. I cannot rule him out, but feel that it was someone else. Like nikb, I feel it may have been someone who knew the girls, one better than the other. With you, Just Pat, and other WS's who care so much about Justice for Lyric and Elizabeth and their families getting some answers, I believe with all my :heartbeat: the :devil: or :devil::devil: who took these girls' lives will eventually be brought to justice.

 

[Bootsctr]

Oh good one.

I personally think they made it to the lake. I don't know if I'd call it staged, but I do think the bikes were probably moved, even if it was just by a well-meaning person who wanted to get them out of the way. I base this on the two different descriptions of the bikes, one saying they were laying across the path and the other saying they were upright. Complete staging to me seems so overly complicated, but that's strictly a gut feeling kind of thing.

All IMOO. I hope we find out someday. It's too late for the girls, but seems like it might help another kid or kids if we can find out what happened. Plus the girls and their loved ones deserve justice.

:winner: This is what I think too - that the bikes were moved by a well-meaning person. This is what threw a monkey wrench into the story for a lot of us. LE knows that the bikes were moved by a well-meaning person, but why should John Q. Public have to know that information? Staging absolutely over-complicates everything. The snatch, grab and drive as far away as the evil one can just works so well for them. Simple, yet effective and deadly for the victims.

I hope we get answers someday too. No one else deserves such a horrible fate and I believe the families and the community should get those answers. And the monster that did this should be put away until they die. :jail:

 

[Bootsctr]

Okay, can we re-examine this part:
Didn't a WS Member visit this area and post photos of this area? Seems like we saw an area of fence that was removed and large enough for people to go under. (I may recall there was snow on the ground at that time)

From Nancy Grace transcripts: July 19, 2012 and yes, we already discussed the fact that Aunt T has no real concept of distance j/k - BBM

"BROUSSEAU: OK. So then we watched the investigators put the crime scene tape up. They were down there for a very long time. I would say approximately three hours, maybe more, you know, doing their investigation.

And we went back around to the southeast side of the lake, where you can actually -- there is an old, like, sewer building. There`s an old garage that sits on this chunk of land that you can actually very easily go down a few blocks and access the back of the lake area from -- from that point you can.

...

"BROUSSEAU: I just wanted to say one more thing, you know, about those bloodhounds that were brought in by the FBI. They did one at a time. One for Elizabeth and one for Lyric. And I was explain to you, so the bikes were found right where those -- the rocky area is, where they`re guessing the girls may have entered the lake at.

But I was there, I watched the bloodhounds continue on into this dense forest area, which is about 400 yards. I watched them go into that area and they positively identified both girls were at that location.

GRACE: Right, at the edge of the water.

BROUSSEAU: And --

GRACE: Go ahead.

BROUSSEAU: Yes, not, you know, not at the -- just at the edge of the water. If you continue on down the bike trail east, there is about approximately 400 acres of forest, dense forest to the left side, and that is where the dogs continued on to and picked up the girls` scent. And that`s when they stopped and brought the dog back and they did the next dog.

The next dog positively identified the next girl`s person to be in that forest. And that`s kind of where I believe it went cold for them. The dogs couldn`t pick up anymore scent. I`m not saying for sure that they couldn`t pick up more scent and go on further, but that is where the investigators stopped, brought the dogs back, told us that, yes, the dogs positively identified the girls to go past the site where the bikes were dropped and farther on into the forest."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/19/ng.01.html

Also from same transcript: Aunt T says, "We pulled into Meyers Lake, right about where Jim and I are standing. And I got up and just jumped out and started asking random people, Have you seen two little girls, one on a mountain bike, you know, gave the complete descriptions of them. And a man -- they have his name. I don`t know who he is. He said to me, Yes, I seen two little girls going west on the bike trail."

Great point to re-visit. We did have several great pictures of Meyers Lake from some of our local WS's who went out there for those of us who are not local and got pictures of that exact location of the fence that did have a place that would be large enough for someone to pass through and easily catch the girls off-guard - unless perhaps the girls were actually meeting someone there to say perhaps look for a lost kitten or puppy for example. It was a great place for vehicle to be hidden from view or not stick out like a sore thumb and it especially would not have been noticeable if it was a color OTHER THAN WHITE. :twocents:

 

[Bootsctr]

Makes me wish that Aunt TB had participated in debate when she was in high school. Something to hone her verbal skills and impart a basic sense of correct grammar.

I truly do believe she is well meaning but reading her remarks gives me a headache. And way too many questions because she says stuff that can be taken 3 or 4 or more different ways. I don't think she's deliberately trying to obfuscate, I think she doesn't have enough training in verbal communication.

It's clear she loves those girls. And was willing to stand up and be mocked just to get the message out.

Absolutely Aunt TB loved the girls! In fact, if she had actually been in charge of watching the girls that day, I believe she would have known for a fact where the girls were or would have been headed. She is the one who had the wherewithal to instruct the girls about what to do if someone did try to grab them - I just think her training was incomplete in the girls' situation - for example, stranger danger when the person is not really a stranger in the girls' minds. Or if it was a person impersonating a cop, etc. Or someone saying they lost their kitty or puppy could really be the devil in disguise...

 

[Bootsctr]

My opinion after these 13 long months.
I believe the perp is local and was known to both Elizabeth and Lyric---probably knew one girl better than the other---based on no known evidence, I think one or both girls knew something damaging about this person---have no idea if the girls even realized the info was damaging but the perp did---I think perp made contact with the girls earlier in the day and made plan to meet them at the lake---perp was waiting near the wooded area when the girls arrived and quickly gained physical control of the girls (stun gun maybe)---girls were taken somewhere close to but not in Evansdale and left in a securable place---perp then returned to the lake to be present and accounted for during the early search-probably did not actively search with a group but was on hand to monitor developments---probably returned to the lake several times in the early days and blended in with the increased foot traffic around the lake after the abduction---I think the girls could have been killed at different times---I think they were killed prior to being placed at Seven Bridges---I think due to the theory of transfer of evidence, LE may know who this perp is and are slowly and methodically building their case---I don't think it was Klunder
The above is my opinion only

Thank you for your thoughtful post Pearl. Your scenario makes perfect sense to me and if it is what happened, we are dealing with a person who is the very "persona of evil." "Someone who is consistently self-deceiving with the intent of avoiding guilt and maintaining a self-image of perfection."
BBM Horrors of horrors, I too believe the girls could have been killed at different times. My worst nightmare. :stormingmad:

 

[watcher9]

I also believe the girls were taken at the lake. Under the time restraints known, it seems too complicated to grab the girls and load the bikes somewhere else and then unload and stage them at a second location while the girls are still in the truck.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I am so happy to see so many new posts! I haven't had a chance to read them all yet, but I'm going to catch up soon.

 

[Bootsctr]

Jumping off of your post, along these lines, possibly of interest... we took the dog for a walk tonight, and there were a half dozen or so white minivans/trucks/vans in the lot. We don't live anywhere near Lizzie and Lyric, but ever since their case I've tried to not only be vigilant but notice WHAT I'm being vigilant about. I stayed in the car while hubby walked the dog, and one person/van was acting IMO really creepy. I asked hubby "what's with the stalker van?" and he immediately assumed it was one of the white ones - not the burgundy one that was driving around slowly and kept stopping for no apparent reason. I can see the preconceived "creepy white van" notion really messing with someone's memory. I wish we knew what exactly this person or people saw.

Me too and I agree about the preconceived "creepy white van" too. Remember the black van mentioned in several abduction attempts? I assume LE knows something more than we do about the white older model full size SUV type vehicle because at this point I am ready to move beyond the "creepy white van" type vehicle to a different type/color vehicle altogether.

 

[Just Pat 22]

Thank you Bootsctr & Marilynilpa for asking those questions to continue the interest in these sweet girl's . Like all of us our hearts wishing and praying this perp will be found out and justice will reign . I have been ill but, still keep an eye on what's happening and thank goodness the interest is still there. RIP Elizabeth & Lyric your death will not be in vain were going to find out who did this horrible crime to both of you .

 

[Bootsctr]

Did we ever determine if there were even any refrigeration units at the hog confinement sites he had access to?

I am still leaning toward Klunder, maybe because he is the only person we have to work with. He was easily able to take the two girls from Dayton and from my understanding no one knew the girls were even missing until the younger one was able to escape and sound the alarm. Was her escape due to Klunder's carelessness or was he just overconfident since he had done this before? If she had been unable to escape, would we be looking at another unsolved double kidnapping and murder case?

http://www.floridatoday.com/usatoday/article/2403691

Watcher9 that is one question I never definitively saw an answer for regarding the refrigeration units at a hog confinement. Might have missed it though.

I cannot disagree with any of your comments regarding Klunder either. If the younger had not escaped I feel we absolutely could have been looking at another double kidnapping and murder case.

Good link too btw. One I had not read before and very informative

Officials have been looking at forensic evidence and other information, such as phone records and credit card receipts, to see whether Klunder could have played a role in the eastern Iowa cousins' disappearance.

Meyers has said that announcement might not come for some time.

 

[threecrazykids]

Watcher9 that is one question I never definitively saw an answer for regarding the refrigeration units at a hog confinement. Might have missed it though.

I cannot disagree with any of your comments regarding Klunder either. If the younger had not escaped I feel we absolutely could have been looking at another double kidnapping and murder case.

Good link too btw. One I had not read before and very informative

What frustrates me is why it's taking so long to announce Klunder in or out. I don't see how the forensics could possibly take this long. They are stalling on this for some reason. I don't believe for one second it's as complicated to rule him in or out as LE would like us to believe.

I'm not sure they would make any sort of announcement even if they know at this point. All it's going to do is wrile up the people who are holding onto hope that he's the guy if they announce that no, MK is NOT the killer. That means a killer still hasn't been charged. Why stir up anything when they can play the "we aren't releasing that information" game for as long as they like?

Why the delay though? If he WAS the person they could wrap it up and be done...it's not like they can charge him and waste time building a case for cryin' out loud.

Plus, asking about the white SUV would have (IMO) prompted people in Klunder's community to know whether or not this was a possible type of vehicle he had access to via himself, a friend,family member etc....and I've heard nothing of the sort...not even speculation from the media, comments on articles, etc.

I have my own opinion that someone involved in this investigation is closer to this crime than any of us know. I don't know why, but I have a feeling that the perp isn't in the dark about anything. I don't know what kind of connection this is...but I think there is some shady work going on behind closed doors that is preventing an arrest from happening.

 

[Bootsctr]

What frustrates me is why it's taking so long to announce Klunder in or out. I don't see how the forensics could possibly take this long. They are stalling on this for some reason. I don't believe for one second it's as complicated to rule him in or out as LE would like us to believe.

I'm not sure they would make any sort of announcement even if they know at this point. All it's going to do is wrile up the people who are holding onto hope that he's the guy if they announce that no, MK is NOT the killer. That means a killer still hasn't been charged. Why stir up anything when they can play the "we aren't releasing that information" game for as long as they like?

Why the delay though? If he WAS the person they could wrap it up and be done...it's not like they can charge him and waste time building a case for cryin' out loud.

Plus, asking about the white SUV would have (IMO) prompted people in Klunder's community to know whether or not this was a possible type of vehicle he had access to via himself, a friend,family member etc....and I've heard nothing of the sort...not even speculation from the media, comments on articles, etc.

I have my own opinion that someone involved in this investigation is closer to this crime than any of us know. I don't know why, but I have a feeling that the perp isn't in the dark about anything. I don't know what kind of connection this is...but I think there is some shady work going on behind closed doors that is preventing an arrest from happening.

I know. At first, it was "we should know in a couple of weeks if Klunder was involved." Well, it's been more than a couple of weeks and I think we should know by now and it's driving me crazy. Seems if Klunder had access to a white SUV it would be known by now. Sometimes I get a weird feeling the perp is someone very close to the case too and very close to the family. LE from other counties talk like it is a sexual predator and the Drew and Heather say it was a sexual predator. I do know I don't like "we're not releasing that information" game because it just makes this case all the stranger. Could the perp be a woman?

 

[threecrazykids]

http://qctimes.com/news/state-and-r...cle_5e9bb13e-935a-5d44-8940-6db3d9236898.html

This article is pretty much cut and dried for me when it comes to admitting the truth:

Evansdale Police Chief Kent Smock said he shares the frustration that there has been little progress to report in the case.

"I've never run into a case like this where there is just so little evidence that we found at the scene," he said.

Which scene are we talking about here? Meyer's Lake? Or is he referring to Seven Bridges when he says this??


Robert Lowery of NCMEC says:
"There is an absence of facts and information that law enforcement has to work through,"

Yet in the VERY same article Smock says:
"This case has taken so many different twists and turns as we've followed up on it."

So is there so many twists and turns or is there lack of info to run on? Which is it, folks?