IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #34

[Darcyline]

I think it is possible they do have a COD and just haven't said it. That is one of those things they sometimes hold back for various reasons. I have seen COD not come out until trials or, as cold cases, 20+ years later or something. It is hard to tell. I have also seen medical examiners not be able to tell COD on a body less than a week dead and not decomposed, but nail the COD on bodies that have been laying around for years. I guess it just depends.
I have an awful feeling in this case that they just have absolutely nothing though. No firm evidence or leads. I am praying they do have DNA because if they have DNA then all they need is a hit. One hit from somewhere at any time. The last time I had an awful feeling that there was no evidence LE ended up making an arrest like, two days later so I hope I am proven wrong in the same way here.

 

[dotr]

Any chance the girls were drowned and/ or frozen?

 

[alliemay]

Any chance the girls were drowned and/ or frozen?

In my opinion, what ever was easy and convenient. Drowning I could see. What do you mean by freezing? As in left in the elements, or killed and stored in a freezer? Keeping the children after death would run the risk of someone finding out. I don't feel they were tied up and left there because I feel they were killed not long after they were taken. If the person that did this killed them by strangulation or drowning they might be someone who does not like a mess, not a neat freak but someone who likes things tidy maybe....all just random thoughts of course.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I think it is possible they do have a COD and just haven't said it. That is one of those things they sometimes hold back for various reasons. I have seen COD not come out until trials or, as cold cases, 20+ years later or something. It is hard to tell. I have also seen medical examiners not be able to tell COD on a body less than a week dead and not decomposed, but nail the COD on bodies that have been laying around for years. I guess it just depends.
I have an awful feeling in this case that they just have absolutely nothing though. No firm evidence or leads. I am praying they do have DNA because if they have DNA then all they need is a hit. One hit from somewhere at any time. The last time I had an awful feeling that there was no evidence LE ended up making an arrest like, two days later so I hope I am proven wrong in the same way here.

If they had nothing, they will still be appealing to the public for help.

They haven't done this since the very early days.

This supports my theory that they have leads and are slowly working them, as did the 100 house blitz in Evansdale one year ago.

:twocents:

 

[SapphireSteel]

It bums me out that we can't link to FB on here, but on the other hand I have read such carp on FB that I completely understand what a mistake it would be to treat anything written on there as reliable.

Unfortunately a lot of people wish to insert themselves into this sort of excitement and making false allegations and starting rumours is one way of doing it.

 

[Squeeze]

I do hope that the other three children were able to go halloweening. It would be a real shame if the other three children spend each special occasion of their childhood with their parent's pre-occupied with the one that is no longer with them.

I wonder about this myself. I hope that they are able to live a somewhat normal life, just like other kids. But I also feel that it may be their own preoccupation as well. One of the girls was insistent that they all have burial plots NOW, and they have a family plot by Elizabeth. Not something that a child usually concerns herself with. For sure, their parents have influence over that, but they miss their sister and want to "include" her and keep her memory alive.

 

[dotr]

In my opinion, what ever was easy and convenient. Drowning I could see. What do you mean by freezing? As in left in the elements, or killed and stored in a freezer? Keeping the children after death would run the risk of someone finding out. I don't feel they were tied up and left there because I feel they were killed not long after they were taken. If the person that did this killed them by strangulation or drowning they might be someone who does not like a mess, not a neat freak but someone who likes things tidy maybe....all just random thoughts of course.

Thinking in terms of a freezer, not that I have any reason in particular to think that, but imagine it would be a convenient place to hide someone especially in the summertime.

 

[Darcyline]

If they had nothing, they will still be appealing to the public for help.

They haven't done this since the very early days.

Man, what I wouldn't give for this to be true in every case. I have seen LE stop appealing for help and then...nothing. Years upon years upon years pass and nothing. I will trust that this isn't the case with Elizabeth and Lyric and they really do have tons of evidence and solid leads and are gearing up an arrest at some point in the near future. Would be nice if we had answers by Christmas!

 

[Squeeze]

Thinking in terms of a freezer, not that I have any reason in particular to think that, but imagine it would be a convenient place to hide someone especially in the summertime.

One of my crazy theories in the beginning was that they were put in a freezer - maybe by a hunter - , close to home, and then later moved to 7 Bridges. Would explain why they were somewhat in-tact (to our knowledge, anyway). There was a case here a few years ago in nearby Jesup where a guy killed his girlfriend (?) and stashed her in the freezer. Not uncommon, I know, but not something you'd hear about locally.

 

[otto]

I wonder about this myself. I hope that they are able to live a somewhat normal life, just like other kids. But I also feel that it may be their own preoccupation as well. One of the girls was insistent that they all have burial plots NOW, and they have a family plot by Elizabeth. Not something that a child usually concerns herself with. For sure, their parents have influence over that, but they miss their sister and want to "include" her and keep her memory alive.

I don't think that little children would talk about having a family plot, or wanting a burial plot, without hearing it first from adults. As a child, I simply assumed that families were buried together ... I had no concept of buying plots in the cemetery for a family. The abductions and murders had nothing to do with Halloween, so it surprised me that this ghoulish, costume, candy & fun event was transformed into another type of memorial. Imagine spending Halloween mourning instead of getting dressed up and running from house to house collecting candy. It strikes me as almost turning a fun thing into a depressive thing.

 

[otto]

Man, what I wouldn't give for this to be true in every case. I have seen LE stop appealing for help and then...nothing. Years upon years upon years pass and nothing. I will trust that this isn't the case with Elizabeth and Lyric and they really do have tons of evidence and solid leads and are gearing up an arrest at some point in the near future. Would be nice if we had answers by Christmas!

There are so many murders that take years to solve. This one doesn't seem to stand out as being any different.

 

[otto]

One of my crazy theories in the beginning was that they were put in a freezer - maybe by a hunter - , close to home, and then later moved to 7 Bridges. Would explain why they were somewhat in-tact (to our knowledge, anyway). There was a case here a few years ago in nearby Jesup where a guy killed his girlfriend (?) and stashed her in the freezer. Not uncommon, I know, but not something you'd hear about locally.

Someone that doesn't know what to do with the body after murdering a spouse or girlfriend might hide the body in the freezer, but someone that abducted two young girls would most likely want to distance himself from the evidence as quickly as possible.

 

[Sunlight]

Since we don't know the condition of the bodies or the cause of death, or the motive, we also do not know the gender of the perpetrator(s), who is frequently assumed to be male. MOO

 

[Marilynilpa]

Some of Lyric's school friends made and sold jewelry to raise money for pink and purple flowers, which they will plant at Angels Park.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/23862800/...ake-jewelry-in-memory-of-friend-and-classmate

 

[threecrazykids]

OT but just wanted to add - I was watching some DVR'd episodes of Cold Justice last night (LOVE that show BTW) - and one thing that struck me was listening to Kelly and Yolanda talk about these cold cases and what almost ALL of them have in common.

Kelly pointed out that the majority of cases that end up in their laps are due to LE focusing entirely too much on what they DON'T have, instead of focusing on what they do. She said "circumstantial evidence cases are BEAUTIFUL!" She went on to say that that with all of these CSI type crime shows and trial watching channels that LE get caught up in feeling like they HAVE to have a weapon, or they HAVE to have DNA linking up a crime scene etc. or they have to have that ONE thing that seals the deal.

She stated that VERY few cases that are solved rely on obtaining the actual murder weapon and/or DNA. She gave statistics about how few cases are slam dunk with these "in your lap" evidence types. And Yolanda was discussing DNA and CSI type evidence and how so much of it can be explained away that LE has GOT to stop focusing on "the smoking gun".

I just found it interesting to listen to those two somewhat slap LE on the hand for withholding an arrest when circumstantial evidence may be all they will ever have.

 

[Marilynilpa]

OT but just wanted to add - I was watching some DVR'd episodes of Cold Justice last night (LOVE that show BTW) - and one thing that struck me was listening to Kelly and Yolanda talk about these cold cases and what almost ALL of them have in common.

Kelly pointed out that the majority of cases that end up in their laps are due to LE focusing entirely too much on what they DON'T have, instead of focusing on what they do. She said "circumstantial evidence cases are BEAUTIFUL!" She went on to say that that with all of these CSI type crime shows and trial watching channels that LE get caught up in feeling like they HAVE to have a weapon, or they HAVE to have DNA linking up a crime scene etc. or they have to have that ONE thing that seals the deal.

She stated that VERY few cases that are solved rely on obtaining the actual murder weapon and/or DNA. She gave statistics about how few cases are slam dunk with these "in your lap" evidence types. And Yolanda was discussing DNA and CSI type evidence and how so much of it can be explained away that LE has GOT to stop focusing on "the smoking gun".

I just found it interesting to listen to those two somewhat slap LE on the hand for withholding an arrest when circumstantial evidence may be all they will ever have.

I haven't seen that show, but maybe I ought to watch it!

Also O/T - here are couple of articles about the "CSI Effect" and how jurors are now expecting more forensic evidence before they will convict someone:

According to recent reports from CBS News and USA Today, jurors now increasingly expect irrefutable forensic evidence, such as DNA and fingerprint analysis, to be present in every single case. If the prosecution lacks such evidence, analysts say, the jury won't convict.

http://www.legalzoom.com/everyday-law/courtroom/csi-effect-juries-demand

Jurors now demand expensive and often unnecessary DNA tests, handwriting analyses, gun shot residue testing, and other procedures that are not pertinent to the case.

http://archive.cspo.org/documents/csieffectheinrick.pdf

Both of these articles are fairly old, but I imagine they are still pertinent.

It may be difficult nowadays for a circumstantial evidence case to be successful if jurors have such high expectations regarding forensics, etc.

 

[Foxfire]

OT but just wanted to add - I was watching some DVR'd episodes of Cold Justice last night (LOVE that show BTW) - and one thing that struck me was listening to Kelly and Yolanda talk about these cold cases and what almost ALL of them have in common.

Kelly pointed out that the majority of cases that end up in their laps are due to LE focusing entirely too much on what they DON'T have, instead of focusing on what they do. She said "circumstantial evidence cases are BEAUTIFUL!" She went on to say that that with all of these CSI type crime shows and trial watching channels that LE get caught up in feeling like they HAVE to have a weapon, or they HAVE to have DNA linking up a crime scene etc. or they have to have that ONE thing that seals the deal.

She stated that VERY few cases that are solved rely on obtaining the actual murder weapon and/or DNA. She gave statistics about how few cases are slam dunk with these "in your lap" evidence types. And Yolanda was discussing DNA and CSI type evidence and how so much of it can be explained away that LE has GOT to stop focusing on "the smoking gun".

I just found it interesting to listen to those two somewhat slap LE on the hand for withholding an arrest when circumstantial evidence may be all they will ever have.

I agree with the growing CSI effect on jurors, investigators, prosecutors, and the American public in general. Predators and other violent felons have also been schooled by the many CSI & other crime investigative TV shows, and have become much more forensically aware..

Then there is the flip side of the coin of relying on circumstantial evidence alone for convictions: DNA evidence exonerates 300th prisoner nationwide..

A Louisiana man has been released from death row, becoming the 300th prisoner nationwide to be freed after DNA evidence showed he was innocent.

Of those 300 prisoners, 18 had been on death row, according to lawyers from the New York-based Innocence Project.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/oct/01/nation/la-na-dna-evidence-20121001

 

[SapphireSteel]

I've watched shows about investigations where they HAVE the POI but cannot arrest despite mountains of circumstantial evidence.

LE need to show clear links to everything they claim.

I have heard them say "discovery of that pair of pliers sealed the case" leaving me to wonder what happens to all the cases where no one finds the pliers?

They go cold.

There are probably millions of perps running around right now who everyone knows is guilty, but no one can find that definitive link to prove it.



May I say I do not believe this is happening in L&L's case. I feel we would have had a lot more communication from LE if they were clueless.

:twocents:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I agree with the growing CSI effect on jurors, investigators, prosecutors, and the American public in general. Predators and other violent felons have also been schooled by the many CSI & other crime investigative TV shows, and have become much more forensically aware..

Then there is the flip side of the coin of relying on circumstantial evidence alone for convictions: DNA evidence exonerates 300th prisoner nationwide..

A Louisiana man has been released from death row, becoming the 300th prisoner nationwide to be freed after DNA evidence showed he was innocent.

Of those 300 prisoners, 18 had been on death row, according to lawyers from the New York-based Innocence Project.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/oct/01/nation/la-na-dna-evidence-20121001

I would be interested in knowing how many people who are put on trial for 1st degree or 2nd degree murder are acquitted.

 

[cindersoot]

Ah geez, when will we hear anything?