IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #35

[SeriouslySearching]

Two things that make me feel the bikes were not staged, 3CK, as you mentioned the sighting by Mr. Carpenter. The second thing is that the dogs followed the girls scent to the edge of the water. I don't know that I think someone was waiting in the bushes, I lean more towards them being either followed or told to go there.

Funny you should mention the sighting by Mr. C. I think we should discuss it more. Certain aspects of that sighting have bothered me since I saw them on the news.

Officials have said the the girls were last seen by their grandmother at about 12:15 p.m. Friday near Elizabeth’s house in the 100 block of Brovan Blvd. Carpenter lives about 1.5 miles away in the 1000 block of Lake Avenue

~Snip~

Carpenter, who lives north of the lake, said he saw the girls between 12 and 3 p.m. while he was outside watering his yard.

~Snip~

“We see them practically all the time ride their bikes right past our house, but they come down and turn around in the street,” he said.

~Snip~

“I broke down for the first time because I was so used to, especially Elizabeth, seeing her every night ride her bicycle and she always stopped and talked to people. She was a friendly little girl,” Marcella Carpenter said.

http://archive.desmoinesregister.co...-missing-Iowa-girls-after-their-disappearance

They live around the corner from where the girls' bikes were found. So how did this child travel so far on a regular basis (every night) and no one noticed she was gone for such a long time?

The only way MC could know how friendly Elizabeth was and that she "always stopped and talked to people" would be if she talked to her and witnessed her stopping during the rides. This would mean Elizabeth was friendly to them personally and felt safe around the Cs.

RC states he was watering his lawn between 12:00pm and 3:00pm, but he cannot pinpoint a closer time? He stood outside and watered for 3 hours?

Was RC the last person to have seen the girls alive? I think it is quite possible.

BBM

While we cannot discuss RC as anything except an eyewitness, we can explore the veracity of his claims in the news....I think. It is my opinion that the stories conflict what is known about the girls and their biking habits. It also means this man had access to the girls immediately before they were determined missing and he verified it.

 

[carbuff]

Try as I might, I simply cannot envision a single random abductor hanging out in the bushes of the bikeway on the offchance an unattended child or two would bike past.

There is too much wrong with the scenario.

The fact that two years has gone by without resolution OR a bolo, tells me that this is NOT a random, lucky chance for a pedophile.

Apart from anything else, two little girls (one of whom was adult sized) are not going to be easily handled or abducted, by one person in a public park.

It would be like herding cats (no offence), you'd just get one in your car and the other would be screaming and/or running away.

BBM

That is exactly the way a certain class of predator operates, though. They know that there are certain areas where children will be, and where they'll likely have less adult supervision. They know the places where kids will be alone when they're walking to or from school, they know the parks where kids go by themselves, and they hang out at those places, ready to grab an opportunity when it presents itself.

That kind of predator also knows how to talk to kids and ingratiate himself, so he wouldn't have to herd them. He'd have a plausible story to lure them into the vehicle. And by then it would be too late.

 

[Squeeze]

I have several issues with Mr. Carpenter.

1. Honestly, I wonder if he was really talking about Elizabeth. I think he mistook her for someone else.
2. The time line doesn't match up with other's accounts of their whereabouts.
3. He was confused about the time.
4. The yard just ain't that big, and looked like it had never been "watered". There were no flowers to be watered.
5. He only talked to the Des Moines register? Was this in the Courier?

My father in law had a stroke about 9 years ago. He is mostly Ok now, but he would swear on a stack of bibles that the last time he took care of our cat, he fed her in the basement. My point is, what he believes to be true is just simply not. I don't know mr. Carpenter personally, but I just have a feeling that somethings not right with him.


Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

 

[alliemay]

For some reason I believe him, I think despite the fact the parents said the children would never go that far, kids are just kids, who have imaginations and like adventure. I think, if I remember right, Elizabeth had a friend who lived in that area. I remember going into the woods with my friend to check out a spooky house, when my mom would call for me we were close enough to hear her, we would run to the edge of the yard and yell "what" so she would think we were actually staying in the yard. I believe him, and also the rumor that they stopped at the store to ask for directions. Could be Elizabeth chose a different way to go to her friends house this day, so she was off on her directions. I would think the police would have exhausted themselves checking his story out. I have often thought about the day care center that was there, possibly someone lurking around there since the children took walks in the park daily. I just wish they would find out soon who did this.

 

[Squeeze]

Try as I might, I simply cannot envision a single random abductor hanging out in the bushes of the bikeway on the offchance an unattended child or two would bike past.

There is too much wrong with the scenario.

The fact that two years has gone by without resolution OR a bolo, tells me that this is NOT a random, lucky chance for a pedophile.

Apart from anything else, two little girls (one of whom was adult sized) are not going to be easily handled or abducted, by one person in a public park.

It would be like herding cats (no offence), you'd just get one in your car and the other would be screaming and/or running away.

Oh i don't think it was completely random. I think our perp fantasized about what he would do and how. He was just ready when the opportunity arose. And yes, if the perp knew the girls, it'd make it just that much easier to make off with them without a peep.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

 

[Squeeze]

BBM

That is exactly the way a certain class of predator operates, though. They know that there are certain areas where children will be, and where they'll likely have less adult supervision. They know the places where kids will be alone when they're walking to or from school, they know the parks where kids go by themselves, and they hang out at those places, ready to grab an opportunity when it presents itself.

That kind of predator also knows how to talk to kids and ingratiate himself, so he wouldn't have to herd them. He'd have a plausible story to lure them into the vehicle. And by then it would be too late.

BINGO!

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

 

[Squeeze]

I also think that LE has way, way more info than we do, and yes, they are just waiting for someone to talk.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I have several issues with Mr. Carpenter.

1. Honestly, I wonder if he was really talking about Elizabeth. I think he mistook her for someone else.
2. The time line doesn't match up with other's accounts of their whereabouts.
3. He was confused about the time.
4. The yard just ain't that big, and looked like it had never been "watered". There were no flowers to be watered.
5. He only talked to the Des Moines register? Was this in the Courier?

My father in law had a stroke about 9 years ago. He is mostly Ok now, but he would swear on a stack of bibles that the last time he took care of our cat, he fed her in the basement. My point is, what he believes to be true is just simply not. I don't know mr. Carpenter personally, but I just have a feeling that somethings not right with him.


Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

His wife mentioned Elizabeth by name and spoke as if she had talked to her personally on more than one of her nightly rides by their house so it wasn't just him.

He was at the search (http://archive.desmoinesregister.co...-missing-Iowa-girls-after-their-disappearance), he was at the vigil (AP photo of him placing an angel on the tree https://gma.yahoo.com/photos/robert...ree-during-vigil-missing-photo-080345782.html), and he was quite vocal about his sighting to anyone who would listen. Did LE write it off too soon? I think they need to review his stories again.

He was all over the news and even mentioned in a report from ABC. I first saw him on a video from one of the local stations, IIRC. His story changed a little in the ABC article as he narrows the timeline (if the reporter was accurate) and also said he spoke to the girls that day.:

Robert Carpenter, an Evansdale resident who lives only blocks from the lake, said he saw the girls riding their bikes on Friday afternoon between 12 and 1 p.m. when he was outside watering his yard.

"Just like a normal day. They just come riding by on their bikes and said hi and that's the last thing I heard from them," Carpenter said.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-iowa-girls-fbi-dogs-detect-cousins-scents/story?id=16798151&page=2

BBM

 

[alliemay]

His wife mentioned Elizabeth by name and spoke as if she had talked to her personally on more than one of her nightly rides by their house so it wasn't just him.

He was at the search (http://archive.desmoinesregister.co...-missing-Iowa-girls-after-their-disappearance), he was at the vigil (AP photo of him placing an angel on the tree https://gma.yahoo.com/photos/robert...ree-during-vigil-missing-photo-080345782.html), and he was quite vocal about his sighting to anyone who would listen. Did LE write it off too soon? I think they need to review his stories again.

He was all over the news and even mentioned in a report from ABC. I first saw him on a video from one of the local stations, IIRC. His story changed a little in the ABC article as he narrows the timeline (if the reporter was accurate) and also said he spoke to the girls that day.:

Robert Carpenter, an Evansdale resident who lives only blocks from the lake, said he saw the girls riding their bikes on Friday afternoon between 12 and 1 p.m. when he was outside watering his yard.

"Just like a normal day. They just come riding by on their bikes and said hi and that's the last thing I heard from them," Carpenter said.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-iowa-girls-fbi-dogs-detect-cousins-scents/story?id=16798151&page=2

BBM

Was it his sighting of the girls that the police used on the missing person posters? I remember there was also some speculation about the jogger, but I'm sure he was checked out just as much as Mr. Carpenter was so I don't think LE wrote off either of these people off without checking their stories out.

 

[threecrazykids]

Two things that make me feel the bikes were not staged, 3CK, as you mentioned the sighting by Mr. Carpenter. The second thing is that the dogs followed the girls scent to the edge of the water. I don't know that I think someone was waiting in the bushes, I lean more towards them being either followed or told to go there.

My only reservation about that piece is that the only person who ever gave any kind of specifics was Aunt Tammy. IIRC LE never confirmed nor denied any specifics about the dogs.

Sandy Breault said:

the reaction from the dogs Monday night indicated a "strong possibility" the girls had been at the lake, less than a mile from their grandmother's house where they were last reported seen Friday. However, Breault said because there were no confirmed sightings at the lake, authorities couldn't be certain.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/17/fbi-dogs-join-search-for-missing-iowa-girls/


So, in her words, no one actually saw the girls at the lake. We know that according to Tammy there was a jogger who saw the girls - but again, FBI says no confirmed sightings...which means either they KNOW the girls were gone before the jogger could have seen them...or this person couldn't give any details whatsoever that would suggest the kids seen on the bikes were even E&L.

In one of the scenarios of staging I mentioned above, I've wondered if a vehicle didn't drive down into that wooded area or even park along the road "the older white SUV"...and the bikes were walked from the vehicle to the back side of the lake and the purse tossed over the fence in a quick effort to make it look like that's where they were...

 

[carbuff]

There are a lot of inconsistencies among the various reports, aren't there? If you take one set as true and the other as off, you come up with a different answer than if you think the first set is mistaken and the second is right.

 

[nikb]

There are a lot of inconsistencies among the various reports, aren't there? If you take one set as true and the other as off, you come up with a different answer than if you think the first set is mistaken and the second is right.

YES that's for sure. I remember it driving me crazy at the beginning. I was pretty new to WS at the time and didn't realize how notoriously unreliable eye-witness accounts can be until I'd read more here. I try to take that into account, as well as stress levels the family members are likely under.

I believe Mr. C. that he saw Elizabeth in particular fairly often. It's really not that far away on a bike. I'm not 100% believing that he saw her that day, or what time he saw her/them if so. I actually believed his original time frame before his wife oddly (IMO) corrected him, but that's when I started doubting things. I do think his heart's in the right place. It makes me so sad to think he might have been the last one to see them - him too, I'm sure. I unfortunately don't believe the reported "sniffer dog" findings at all - not because of the dogs, but because they don't make sense and the way they were reported (and in some cases not reported).

The one thing I know above all is I really, really hope we find out the truth one day.

 

[24Roses]

Very frustrated that I wasn't able to get on here until today-internet out since Monday evening. :banghead: I'm so relieved that we have actually heard at least some news from LE & they have ruled Klunder out ( I was sure he was the one though). The WCF Courier article does give more info. than I thought they would release. Did anyone notice how they worded about coming forward with any info. from July 13 or Dec. 5. They kind of contradict themselves in the article. In a way it makes me wonder if they were at 7 Bridges since July or really put there as late as Dec. Just my opinion

 

[SeriouslySearching]

He was the last one reportedly to have seen the girls alive. His wife stated they did know Elizabeth (which makes no sense either), but confirms they would be able to tell the difference of her and other children. 1.5 miles is a long distance for a little girl on a bike to travel one way on a regular basis without anyone except RC and his wife knowing, imo. Was there a reason she would travel to his house and then turn around? What are we missing here?

If he does have a problem of some concern, it was never mentioned by anyone and I would expect it with all the news organizations who talked to him. If they would have noticed, his eyewitness account would not have been splashed everywhere. Regardless, his stories are consistent about the fact he saw them last. I think it is always one of most important facts in any case and should be checked into six ways from Sunday.

Access and opportunity are key points. Testimony from an eyewitness is questionable unless there was another eyewitness during the exchange (IIRC there was no other witness that day).

 

[threecrazykids]

I hadn't even read the article in the WCF courier...and now that I have, my opinion on what happened waivers even more. I'd never been a believer that this was a sexual offense, nor did I think it was a stranger to the girls.

But after reading this article I think (unless Smock is blowing smoke to keep this close to the vest) there is more than one reference to indicate they believe it to be a sexual offense and NOT known to the girls.

Detectives with the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation have expanded their canvas of sex offenders beyond Black Hawk County, he said.
Canvas was the SAME word used when they did the multiple house crashing a few months after the girls initially disappeared.

Also-
For instance, he said, someone in the public may have noticed someone who had scratches or whose clothes were in disarray or had burrs around the time of the disappearance.

The thing about scratches to me would indicate this wasn't a situation of taking them out into the woods, possibly releasing them and shooting them. Or even just shooting them in the two separated areas (they were found quite a distance apart).
This to me almost indicates strangulation, blunt force trauma, etc. as COD. If the girls had been shot there likely wouldn't have been scratches - unless it happened in the initial abduction (which, if this person was familiar with them, they wouldn't fight). Not to mention LE stated that there was no indication of a struggle at the lake.

And finally-
“We did have some information that was verified and credible information that there were three different people who saw a white SUV on the 13th along the east side of the lake.” Smock said. “We’re still looking for information on that.”

I think that if this vehicle is THE ONE then someone would have been able to tie this vehicle in one way or another to the family (possibly a family friend, saw it there over the holidays, SOMETHING that sparks their memory as to seeing it around town before.) And since then...no sightings, so that to me means this person likely is NOT from Evansdale, as someone would have seen it at some point between July and now...


http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/cr...e_647e7e0c-6ea1-5f71-80e8-8b56a9700c47.html?3

 

[Indy Anna]

I hadn't even read the article in the WCF courier...and now that I have, my opinion on what happened waivers even more. I'd never been a believer that this was a sexual offense, nor did I think it was a stranger to the girls.

But after reading this article I think (unless Smock is blowing smoke to keep this close to the vest) there is more than one reference to indicate they believe it to be a sexual offense and NOT known to the girls.

Detectives with the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation have expanded their canvas of sex offenders beyond Black Hawk County, he said.
Canvas was the SAME word used when they did the multiple house crashing a few months after the girls initially disappeared.

Also-
For instance, he said, someone in the public may have noticed someone who had scratches or whose clothes were in disarray or had burrs around the time of the disappearance.

The thing about scratches to me would indicate this wasn't a situation of taking them out into the woods, possibly releasing them and shooting them. Or even just shooting them in the two separated areas (they were found quite a distance apart).
This to me almost indicates strangulation, blunt force trauma, etc. as COD. If the girls had been shot there likely wouldn't have been scratches - unless it happened in the initial abduction (which, if this person was familiar with them, they wouldn't fight). Not to mention LE stated that there was no indication of a struggle at the lake.

And finally-
“We did have some information that was verified and credible information that there were three different people who saw a white SUV on the 13th along the east side of the lake.” Smock said. “We’re still looking for information on that.”

I think that if this vehicle is THE ONE then someone would have been able to tie this vehicle in one way or another to the family (possibly a family friend, saw it there over the holidays, SOMETHING that sparks their memory as to seeing it around town before.) And since then...no sightings, so that to me means this person likely is NOT from Evansdale, as someone would have seen it at some point between July and now...

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/cr...e_647e7e0c-6ea1-5f71-80e8-8b56a9700c47.html?3

Good post, 3CK. I have just a couple of questions/comments.

(light blue highlighting) IMO, the girls were lured into a vehicle, i.e., went voluntarily. But, they were probably sexually assaulted at a different location from where they were found -- like at an isolated house or cabin. At that point, I can imagine the girls fighting off their attackers. They could have been shot after the assault and then taken to the area they were found.

But, I'm not sure he meant scratches as in defensive wounds, or as in scrapes from twigs and thorns (evidence someone had been in a wooded area). If skin cells and fibers were found underneath E&L's fingernails, LE would have a DNA profile on the cells and hope to match it to someone in CODIS, or request voluntary swabs of males in a certain radius of Evansdale (like LE did in the murder of Jessica Ridgeway).

 

[Indy Anna]

Regarding the SUV ... if the perp is someone known to the family, I wonder if he borrowed someone else's vehicle that day. Could it have been a rental vehicle?

Also, reflecting on why E&L's bodies were found not that close together .... Could they have been killed and/or taken to the park on different days? IMO, that's a possibility especially if there was only one perp. Maybe when he returned at a later date with the 2nd body, he remembered the approximate location but couldn't see it for the overgrown vegetation and even panicked, thinking the 1st body might already have been found, and quickly placed the 2nd body on the ground.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

White is the most popular color for vehicles and sightings of a generic white SUV would be of no help. The vast amount of white SUVs just in the area would prevent anyone from keying in on an individual (unless said individual also matches the other criteria with scrapes from bushes, messed up clothing, and/or burrs on the clothing/skin at the time they believe the girls were left in the woods).

 

[Indy Anna]

White is the most popular color for vehicles and sightings of a generic white SUV would be of no help. The vast amount of white SUVs just in the area would prevent anyone from keying in on an individual (unless said individual also matches the other criteria with scrapes from bushes, messed up clothing, and/or burrs on the clothing/skin at the time they believe the girls were left in the woods).

I can see a perp borrowing a vehicle from a friend/relative or renting from a rental company for that reason. Car rental companies usually don't give you a choice of vehicles (in my experience). But, I wonder if anyone called several different rental companies in areas surrounding Evansdale in the days before E&L went missing, until they found a white SUV.

 

[SapphireSteel]

BBM

That is exactly the way a certain class of predator operates, though. They know that there are certain areas where children will be, and where they'll likely have less adult supervision. They know the places where kids will be alone when they're walking to or from school, they know the parks where kids go by themselves, and they hang out at those places, ready to grab an opportunity when it presents itself.

That kind of predator also knows how to talk to kids and ingratiate himself, so he wouldn't have to herd them. He'd have a plausible story to lure them into the vehicle. And by then it would be too late.

There will be precious few children hanging around a lake without their parents or an adult.

Indeed, Elizabeth and Lizzie were the only two girls biking around Evansdale that day!

School holidays mean children are often accompanied by grandparents, parents, carers.

Nope. He could've stood in the local McDonalds car park, he would have been just as invisible and far more likely to find a stray kid or three.

Whoever it was CAUGHT them, at least that's how it's staged to look.

So WHO would be at this park, without a vehicle (none was seen) and still manage to trap two cyclists and disappear them, without so much as breaking a blade of grass?

No one.

This is someone they know...someone knew they were going to be at that lake, at that time.

:moo: