IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #35

[Indy Anna]

White is the most popular color for vehicles and sightings of a generic white SUV would be of no help. The vast amount of white SUVs just in the area would prevent anyone from keying in on an individual (unless said individual also matches the other criteria with scrapes from bushes, messed up clothing, and/or burrs on the clothing/skin at the time they believe the girls were left in the woods).

As to someone having scratches, burrs and messed up clothing, that could refer to any number of people in the Evansdale and neighboring areas during the summer and autumn months. No one knows when the girls were placed in the wooded area. The perp(s) may no longer have had the white SUV at that point -- especially if he borrowed/rented it -- and so people have not made those connections. KWIM?

 

[Squeeze]

Good post, 3CK. I have just a couple of questions/comments.

(light blue highlighting) IMO, the girls were lured into a vehicle, i.e., went voluntarily. But, they were probably sexually assaulted at a different location from where they were found -- like at an isolated house or cabin. At that point, I can imagine the girls fighting off their attackers. They could have been shot after the assault and then taken to the area they were found.

But, I'm not sure he meant scratches as in defensive wounds, or as in scrapes from twigs and thorns (evidence someone had been in a wooded area). If skin cells and fibers were found underneath E&L's fingernails, LE would have a DNA profile on the cells and hope to match it to someone in CODIS, or request voluntary swabs of males in a certain radius of Evansdale (like LE did in the murder of Jessica Ridgeway).

That's what my first thought was - scratches from branches, etc. Wild Rose bushes are bad around that area. I'm guessing there were lots of them where the bodies were placed

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[Squeeze]

He was the last one reportedly to have seen the girls alive. His wife stated they did know Elizabeth (which makes no sense either), but confirms they would be able to tell the difference of her and other children. 1.5 miles is a long distance for a little girl on a bike to travel one way on a regular basis without anyone except RC and his wife knowing, imo. Was there a reason she would travel to his house and then turn around? What are we missing here?

If he does have a problem of some concern, it was never mentioned by anyone and I would expect it with all the news organizations who talked to him. If they would have noticed, his eyewitness account would not have been splashed everywhere. Regardless, his stories are consistent about the fact he saw them last. I think it is always one of most important facts in any case and should be checked into six ways from Sunday.

Access and opportunity are key points. Testimony from an eyewitness is questionable unless there was another eyewitness during the exchange (IIRC there was no other witness that day).

I wonder who the friend was that the girls supposedly visited. The one near where mr. C lives. And was she home that day?? Did the girls make it to her house? Now, wouldn't that be interesting if they went there, their friend wasn't home but big brother was.... "she'll be home soon. Come in and wait....." He does whatever to them, °then he stashes the bikes on the bike path...

This has been my go-to theory all along (except said friend lived closer to Elizabeth).

 

[threecrazykids]

The scratches from twigs, branches, etc. makes total sense...I hadn't thought about that. I was immediately thinking he meant some sort of defensive wound scratch, which played into the stranger/RSO theory.

I just still can't wrap my head around how this person pulled this off (even for this long). It just baffles me to no end. Luckiest SOB in Evansdale that day, that's for sure. Lucky as in not ONE person was around not only the lake, but outside at all on that day, to see the girls walk from the back of the lake to the road where the vehicle was apparently parked.

 

[Squeeze]

His wife mentioned Elizabeth by name and spoke as if she had talked to her personally on more than one of her nightly rides by their house so it wasn't just him.

He was at the search (http://archive.desmoinesregister.co...-missing-Iowa-girls-after-their-disappearance), he was at the vigil (AP photo of him placing an angel on the tree https://gma.yahoo.com/photos/robert...ree-during-vigil-missing-photo-080345782.html), and he was quite vocal about his sighting to anyone who would listen. Did LE write it off too soon? I think they need to review his stories again.

He was all over the news and even mentioned in a report from ABC. I first saw him on a video from one of the local stations, IIRC. His story changed a little in the ABC article as he narrows the timeline (if the reporter was accurate) and also said he spoke to the girls that day.:

Robert Carpenter, an Evansdale resident who lives only blocks from the lake, said he saw the girls riding their bikes on Friday afternoon between 12 and 1 p.m. when he was outside watering his yard.

"Just like a normal day. They just come riding by on their bikes and said hi and that's the last thing I heard from them," Carpenter said.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-iowa-girls-fbi-dogs-detect-cousins-scents/story?id=16798151&page=2

BBM

I can find no other news source that Mr. C talked to, other than the reporter from the register. I would assume that he also talked to LE, who may or may not have punched holes in his 3 hour window. Maybe further questioning of Mrs. C narrowed the timeline to more accurate window, of which we l would not be privy too. And yes, he was photographed placing an ornament on the tree, but then again, he lives 1/2 block away.

Maybe one reporter's interview was plenty for him, but I still think it's odd that KWWL or the Courier didn't talk to him or even reference his siting. Unless someone can prove me wrong and provide a link.

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[Squeeze]

The ABC.com link is simply regurgitating the original DM register interview.

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[SeriouslySearching]

I can find no other news source that Mr. C talked to, other than the reporter from the register. I would assume that he also talked to LE, who may or may not have punched holes in his 3 hour window. Maybe further questioning of Mrs. C narrowed the timeline to more accurate window, of which we l would not be privy too. And yes, he was photographed placing an ornament on the tree, but then again, he lives 1/2 block away.

Maybe one reporter's interview was plenty for him, but I still think it's odd that KWWL or the Courier didn't talk to him or even reference his siting. Unless someone can prove me wrong and provide a link.

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Here is one video of them I guess talking to the DRegister: http://bcove.me/o1kfkr8d

Maybe you are right, but it doesn't change the fact he states he was to date the last person to see them alive.

 

[threecrazykids]

Mr. Carpenter, Mr. Gamerdinger, nor the mysterious jogger OR the alleged fisherman's accounts seem to be confirmed by LE. Yet they DO account for 3 credible confirmed sightings of the mysterious older white SUV. So the people who have made themselves public are out, but the people whose names are unknown to the public are in. Hmmmm....coincidence?

As far as the vehicle being a rental, or borrowed, I can't make sense of it.
#1, no rental company is going to loan out a vehicle that old...we're talking OLD here - boxy style. Rental companies just don't keep vehicles like that to rent.
#2, I would hope to God that if someone KNEW that someone had borrowed their older, boxy, white SUV. that they would immediately notify the cops. If for no reason other then clearing THEMSELVES from becoming the suspect. The only scenario I can see this happening is if it was your kid who would have access to the vehicle and you're blind to think of the possibility.

This screams local to me - and apparently LE agrees. They stated that the secluded location at Meyer's Lake, in addition to the secluded area of Seven Bridges indicates that this person is very familiar with the area.

What I don't understand is how, if this person is a local, they haven't had any other sightings of this mysterious white SUV in the last 2 years.
If the person knows the area, but doesn't live there...do we then just accept that those girls being there at that time, at that place, with absolutely ZERO people around, was just dumb luck? If the area had been scouted, you'd think they would have been there recently to know how much or how little traffic is in that area of the lake.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Mr. Carpenter, Mr. Gamerdinger, nor the mysterious jogger OR the alleged fisherman's accounts seem to be confirmed by LE. Yet they DO account for 3 credible confirmed sightings of the mysterious older white SUV. So the people who have made themselves public are out, but the people whose names are unknown to the public are in. Hmmmm....coincidence?

As far as the vehicle being a rental, or borrowed, I can't make sense of it.
#1, no rental company is going to loan out a vehicle that old...we're talking OLD here - boxy style. Rental companies just don't keep vehicles like that to rent.
#2, I would hope to God that if someone KNEW that someone had borrowed their older, boxy, white SUV. that they would immediately notify the cops. If for no reason other then clearing THEMSELVES from becoming the suspect. The only scenario I can see this happening is if it was your kid who would have access to the vehicle and you're blind to think of the possibility.

This screams local to me - and apparently LE agrees. They stated that the secluded location at Meyer's Lake, in addition to the secluded area of Seven Bridges indicates that this person is very familiar with the area.

What I don't understand is how, if this person is a local, they haven't had any other sightings of this mysterious white SUV in the last 2 years.
If the person knows the area, but doesn't live there...do we then just accept that those girls being there at that time, at that place, with absolutely ZERO people around, was just dumb luck? If the area had been scouted, you'd think they would have been there recently to know how much or how little traffic is in that area of the lake.

I'm sorry but with all due respect - how do we know they haven't done these things?

The investigation has been kept secret. Very secret.

This alone implies they have leads, POI's, a framework to their investigation - everything but DNA and thus, arrests.

Everything but the oh-so-important physical link or eye witness.

Go and watch some ID shows. It's absolutely startling how many cases stall for years even though the POI is known to everyone including LE.

It takes a review, an eye witness, some careless statement sometimes, death bed confessions, before all the ends can be tied together enough for a DA and a jury.

 

[alliemay]

I wonder who the friend was that the girls supposedly visited. The one near where mr. C lives. And was she home that day?? Did the girls make it to her house? Now, wouldn't that be interesting if they went there, their friend wasn't home but big brother was.... "she'll be home soon. Come in and wait....." He does whatever to them, °then he stashes the bikes on the bike path...

This has been my go-to theory all along (except said friend lived closer to Elizabeth).

I wonder also, we don't know if that was the girls intention that day, to visit this friend, but it's possible. There could have been any number of people who lived there, of different ages. I would also like to know if anyone from that area sold their home right afterwards. I know the day care moved somewhere else.

 

[nikb]

Hm... I'm trying to think new thoughts here so this might be totally off, but, it's a good point that no normal rental company would be renting out an old "boxy white SUV." So who would? A moving company or hardware store?

ETA: if it was rented. Of course it might've been owned, I'm just trying to think of ideas.

 

[alliemay]

The person that owned it could have junked it, sold it or painted it. I'm sure it would be an overwhelming task to go though the DMV records for the whole state, checking out all older SUV's. It just seems strange this vehicle has not been seen.

 

[Squeeze]

I'm sorry but with all due respect - how do we know they haven't done these things?

The investigation has been kept secret. Very secret.

This alone implies they have leads, POI's, a framework to their investigation - everything but DNA and thus, arrests.

Everything but the oh-so-important physical link or eye witness.

Go and watch some ID shows. It's absolutely startling how many cases stall for years even though the POI is known to everyone including LE.

It takes a review, an eye witness, some careless statement sometimes, death bed confessions, before all the ends can be tied together enough for a DA and a jury.

Talking to LE and talking to reporters are two totally different things. I have maintained all along that just because they talk to reporters really doesn't mean anything. LE isn't going to tell us who they've talked to, unless they need another witness to corroborate the info, such as in the case of the white van. They want to talk to someone who may have noticed a different detail, such as a license number or who was driving. We can't assume that people who have talked to reporters haven't had their accounts ripped apart by some other known facts. Like when Mrs. C corrected Mr. C.

Switch gears here....

So what do you think is a more likely scenario??? A person luring and removing two girls in broad daylight, or sometime luring them into a home or garage, to dispose of later?

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[alliemay]

On the fence with either of those. I think if this person lured them into a house or garage, they would have taken the risk of someone seeing either the girls bikes near their house, or them staging the bikes, or the risk of someone seeing the girls walking into their house or garage. I think I lean more on the side of someone taking them from near where their bikes were. They may have watched them go into the woods, or they may have followed them for a short distance. Everything seemed to be convenient for the person who did this down to the lack of witnesses.

 

[threecrazykids]

Let's try another angle-

Maybe we need to be working backwards from Seven Bridges...instead of starting in Evansdale.

What changes if we START in Readlyn, then work our way towards Evansdale. Anything, or anyone stand out?

I'm not sure that the people of Readlyn are under the impression that Seven Bridges was anything but a dumping ground, which is what LE has pretty much said right away. That doesn't mean that this person doesn't know Seven Bridges like the back of their hand and possibly lives in Readlyn or another tiny town close by.

In all honesty it makes MORE sense to me that this person got lucky in abducting the girls - but Seven Bridges/Readlyn is the key...not Evansdale or Meyer's Lake.

 

[threecrazykids]

Uh...

Look up the only RSO in Readlyn and look at the cover photo. If it's the right one - he studied Agriculture and Life Sciences and has a picture of a fish right on the profile picture.

However, it shows the picture is from March 30, 2012 but there appear to be cuts/scrapes on his arm. And we all know the picture wasn't from March 2012 because all bodies of water are still frozen in Iowa in March...

BUT, his conviction was in May 2013 - after the girls - and his DNA would be on file...I wonder what he drove two years ago or where he lived at the time.

I'd hope to shout they've already looked into him...

 

[carbuff]

He could have been ice fishing.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Talking to LE and talking to reporters are two totally different things. I have maintained all along that just because they talk to reporters really doesn't mean anything. LE isn't going to tell us who they've talked to, unless they need another witness to corroborate the info, such as in the case of the white van. They want to talk to someone who may have noticed a different detail, such as a license number or who was driving. We can't assume that people who have talked to reporters haven't had their accounts ripped apart by some other known facts. Like when Mrs. C corrected Mr. C.

Switch gears here....

So what do you think is a more likely scenario??? A person luring and removing two girls in broad daylight, or sometime luring them into a home or garage, to dispose of later?

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Neither.

I think the girls were sent to the park and intercepted either at the park or very near to it.

I think the girls kidnapping was planned and executed by people who were supposed to love and care for them.

:seeya:

 

[Indy Anna]

Hm... I'm trying to think new thoughts here so this might be totally off, but, it's a good point that no normal rental company would be renting out an old "boxy white SUV." So who would? A moving company or hardware store?

ETA: if it was rented. Of course it might've been owned, I'm just trying to think of ideas.

I didn't recall that the SUV was an old model. But, one thought I had earlier is that it could be a loaner vehicle from a privately-owned (not dealership) body or auto repair shop. I've been to auto repair shops in my area that loaned me an older vehicle while they worked on mine.

 

[Indy Anna]

Let's try another angle-

Maybe we need to be working backwards from Seven Bridges...instead of starting in Evansdale.

What changes if we START in Readlyn, then work our way towards Evansdale. Anything, or anyone stand out?

I'm not sure that the people of Readlyn are under the impression that Seven Bridges was anything but a dumping ground, which is what LE has pretty much said right away. That doesn't mean that this person doesn't know Seven Bridges like the back of their hand and possibly lives in Readlyn or another tiny town close by.

In all honesty it makes MORE sense to me that this person got lucky in abducting the girls - but Seven Bridges/Readlyn is the key...not Evansdale or Meyer's Lake.

It's not uncommon for a perp to dispose of evidence or a body in the opposite direction from where he committed the crime. He could be from an area north of Evansdale, but south of Readlyn.

Whether the killer knew the girls would be at the lake that day because they habitually rode their bikes there, or he sent them there, IMO he lured them into his vehicle from the lake. Likely, he told the girls something like, "I really want you to see this. Just leave your bikes here out of the way and I'll bring you back to get them." He had to gain their confidence first and most likely they were somewhat familiar with him, so they believed he was trustworthy....until it was too late.