IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #35

[Squeeze]

Today, the gold standard is DNA evidence because DNA can be collected from virtually anywhere. Even a criminal wearing gloves may unwittingly leave behind trace amounts of biological material. It could be a hair, saliva, blood, semen, skin, sweat, mucus or earwax. All it takes is a few cells to obtain enough DNA information to identify a suspect with near certainty.

Remember a while back we were talking about the show Cold Justice? They really stress that MOST cases are circumstantial. Circumstantial evidence isn't necessarily a bad thing. DNA doesn't always solve cases. Sometimes there just isn't any that links the perp to the crime.

 

[Foxfire]

Say they found DNA @ the 7 Bridges discovery - if there is no DNA record on file to match it with, LE does not know who it belongs to.

The National DNA Index System
Q: What is the National DNA Index System or NDIS?
A: NDIS is the acronym for the “National DNA Index System” and is one part of CODIS—the national level—containing the DNA profiles contributed by federal, state, and local participating forensic laboratories. NDIS was implemented in October 1998. All 50 states, the District of Columbia, the federal government, the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory, and Puerto Rico participate in NDIS.
The DNA Identification Act of 1994 (42 U.S.C. §14132) authorized the establishment of this National DNA Index. The DNA Act specifies the categories of data that may be maintained in NDIS (convicted offenders, arrestees, legal, detainees, forensic (casework), unidentified human remains, missing persons and relatives of missing persons) as well as requirements for participating laboratories relating to quality assurance, privacy and expungement.

Once a suspect has been identified, investigators seek to legally obtain a DNA sample from the suspect. This suspect DNA profile is then compared to the sample found at the crime scene, in accordance with well established and constitutionally accepted practices, to definitively identify the suspect as the source of the crime scene DNA

FBI agents cannot legally store DNA of a person who was not convicted of a crime. DNA collected from a suspect who was not later convicted must be disposed of and not entered into the database.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis/codis-and-ndis-fact-sheet

http://www.forensicmag.com/news/2013/09/investigators-see-promise-iowas-new-dna-law#.UqP21vRDsuc

Investigators See Promise in Iowa's New DNA Law
Mon, 09/23/2013 - 2:49pm
Joel Aschbrenner, Des Moines Register

Law enforcement officials say they hope to solve more crimes, from decades-old cold cases to commonplace burglaries, under a new law that will force those convicted of most aggravated misdemeanors to submit DNA samples. Currently, Iowa collects DNA from people convicted of felonies and sex crimes.

The law, which takes effect July 1, is expected to roughly double the number of DNA samples Iowa collects, said Paul Bush, a supervisor in the state DNA crime lab.



________________________________________________
'Familial DNA has become an excellent investigative tool for those states that have adopted the law'. Not sure if Iowa has passed the Familial DNA Law. The (CA) Grim Sleeper serial killer was identified utilizing familial DNA.

http://scholarship.law.nd.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1059&context=ndlr
Am I My Brother's Keeper: Familial DNA (Interesting Read)

 

[watcher9]

Say they found DNA @ the 7 Bridges discovery - if there is no DNA record on file to match it with, LE does not know who it belongs to.

The National DNA Index System
Q: What is the National DNA Index System or NDIS?
A: NDIS is the acronym for the “National DNA Index System” and is one part of CODIS—the national level—containing the DNA profiles contributed by federal, state, and local participating forensic laboratories. NDIS was implemented in October 1998. All 50 states, the District of Columbia, the federal government, the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory, and Puerto Rico participate in NDIS.
The DNA Identification Act of 1994 (42 U.S.C. §14132) authorized the establishment of this National DNA Index. The DNA Act specifies the categories of data that may be maintained in NDIS (convicted offenders, arrestees, legal, detainees, forensic (casework), unidentified human remains, missing persons and relatives of missing persons) as well as requirements for participating laboratories relating to quality assurance, privacy and expungement.

Once a suspect has been identified, investigators seek to legally obtain a DNA sample from the suspect. This suspect DNA profile is then compared to the sample found at the crime scene, in accordance with well established and constitutionally accepted practices, to definitively identify the suspect as the source of the crime scene DNA

FBI agents cannot legally store DNA of a person who was not convicted of a crime. DNA collected from a suspect who was not later convicted must be disposed of and not entered into the database.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis/codis-and-ndis-fact-sheet

DNA from Klunder may not have been obtained or stored from his previous convictions because of the type of charges and/or the time frame in which he served. I imagine they did obtain some DNA after his suicide to confirm his involvement in the Dayton crime, but since he will not be convicted by law of this last crime, would they be required to dispose of it even if they knew he committed the crime? What would they do if he were to be a suspect in other crimes linked or not at this time? There was something about not being able to use someone's DNA to go on a manhunt but then they store it in the national bank to be compared to another crime scene to find a suspect. I guess that's a fine line they must toe.

 

[Foxfire]

While researching, I ran across an article by Vernon J. Geberth; author of the homicide investigator's bible, which focuses on Poly Klaas's abduction(1993) as a teaching tool for investigators when a child goes missing. The article highlights the errors made in her investigation, as well as the lessons learned..

Sex-Related Child Abduction Homicides <2006>
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/LOmar2004.htm

<sniped - Read More>

INTRODUCTION
There is nothing more disturbing to an investigator than the murder of a child. This is especially true when the murder is a sex-related event. Sex-Related Child Abduction Homicides are usually committed by strangers. The investigation becomes extremely complex as the authorities attempt to identify an unknown stranger, who has abducted a child and left the area. The immediate problem is how much time was lost before someone realized the child was missing and how to disseminate the necessary identification and investigative information to both law enforcement and the general public to enlist the assistance of an entire community in order to save the child.

CHILD ABDUCTION
The abduction and murder of a child under eighteen years of age by a stranger is a rare event. Statistically they run about one-half of one percent of all murders in the United States (between 100 to 200 cases annually). Although the data indicates that these incidents are statistically rare, they are horrendous crimes. Child Abduction cases affect not only the immediate family of the victim, but entire communities and our society as a whole as media coverage of the event is nationally broadcast. It is every parent's nightmare that a child can be so wantonly harmed and many times slaughtered. It is the realization of this horror that requires the criminal investigator to develop the knowledge and expertise to manage Child Abduction cases and learn from the experience of other similar events how to professionally investigate these type cases. We in law enforcement strive to do better and learn from our past mistakes in order to protect the public. The investigation of child abduction murders can present law enforcement with a unique predicament. The respective police departments and their investigators are often pressured by the media to resolve them quickly and many times the cases become "driven" by outside forces. Investigative leads, based on facts should generate the direction of the investigation. However, in a high profile case such as child abduction where the general public is asked to provide information a number of tips or "leads" will be provided to authorities. These tips and/or leads can come to the authorities through official channels and identifiable sources as well as from persons who call anonymously. This deluge of information requires sufficient resources to follow-up on potential information as well as the necessary resources to check on recently released and registered sex offenders within the community. >>

 

[B4igo2it]

My DNA was used in a medical study @ MD Anderson cancer hospital in Houston, TX. I participated in a clinical study to quit smoking. There were many forms I read, agreed to and signed showing knowledge/authorization. I was happy my DNA was on file in case something ever happened to me -however, this was not the case at all. I was told the DNA is ONLY on file at this medical facility for this study. When the results of the study conclude and are published, the DNA will be destroyed; it cannot be used for any other study or purposes.

fftopic: Fortunately, I did not have the placebo; successfully quit smoking 3.5 years ago (trial drugs: wellbutrin & Chantix together) No side affects!

 

[Foxfire]

DNA from Klunder may not have been obtained or stored from his previous convictions because of the type of charges and/or the time frame in which he served. I imagine they did obtain some DNA after his suicide to confirm his involvement in the Dayton crime, but since he will not be convicted by law of this last crime, would they be required to dispose of it even if they knew he committed the crime? What would they do if he were to be a suspect in other crimes linked or not at this time? There was something about not being able to use someone's DNA to go on a manhunt but then they store it in the national bank to be compared to another crime scene to find a suspect. I guess that's a fine line they must toe.

watcher9, the statements made in this article would indicate that MJK's DNA is available to investigators, imo.

http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/...eaded-to-fbi-crime-lab/article?nclick_check=1

Some of the evidence gathered from crime scenes in Dayton and Evansdale is being sent to the FBI crime lab for analysis, a state official said Friday.

It is regular protocol for state investigators to seek FBI assistance in some cases because the national lab has greater capabilities than those at the state level, said Gerard Meyers assistant director for field operations with the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation.

“It’s predominately evidence that would have DNA relevance,” Meyers said. “We’ve been working for the last week or so to determine what evidence would meet the necessary submission for the FBI crime lab.”

 

[threecrazykids]

While researching, I ran across an article by Vernon J. Geberth; author of the homicide investigator's bible, which focuses on Poly Klaas's abduction(1993) as a teaching tool for investigators when a child goes missing. The article highlights the errors made in her investigation, as well as the lessons learned..

Sex-Related Child Abduction Homicides <2006>
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/LOmar2004.htm

<sniped - Read More>

INTRODUCTION
There is nothing more disturbing to an investigator than the murder of a child. This is especially true when the murder is a sex-related event. Sex-Related Child Abduction Homicides are usually committed by strangers. The investigation becomes extremely complex as the authorities attempt to identify an unknown stranger, who has abducted a child and left the area. The immediate problem is how much time was lost before someone realized the child was missing and how to disseminate the necessary identification and investigative information to both law enforcement and the general public to enlist the assistance of an entire community in order to save the child.

CHILD ABDUCTION
The abduction and murder of a child under eighteen years of age by a stranger is a rare event. Statistically they run about one-half of one percent of all murders in the United States (between 100 to 200 cases annually). Although the data indicates that these incidents are statistically rare, they are horrendous crimes. Child Abduction cases affect not only the immediate family of the victim, but entire communities and our society as a whole as media coverage of the event is nationally broadcast. It is every parent's nightmare that a child can be so wantonly harmed and many times slaughtered. It is the realization of this horror that requires the criminal investigator to develop the knowledge and expertise to manage Child Abduction cases and learn from the experience of other similar events how to professionally investigate these type cases. We in law enforcement strive to do better and learn from our past mistakes in order to protect the public. The investigation of child abduction murders can present law enforcement with a unique predicament. The respective police departments and their investigators are often pressured by the media to resolve them quickly and many times the cases become "driven" by outside forces. Investigative leads, based on facts should generate the direction of the investigation. However, in a high profile case such as child abduction where the general public is asked to provide information a number of tips or "leads" will be provided to authorities. These tips and/or leads can come to the authorities through official channels and identifiable sources as well as from persons who call anonymously. This deluge of information requires sufficient resources to follow-up on potential information as well as the necessary resources to check on recently released and registered sex offenders within the community. >>

I know there is a lot of information in all of these articles, but what I bolded speaks volumes.

Statistically speaking, the likelihood that L&L's abduction was carried out by a stranger - with each girl INDIVIDUALLY - runs at one HALF of one percent.

Now, what is the percentage of likelihood that TWO girls, cousins at that, were taken together by a stranger?

Whomever did this (if a stranger) has (so far) gotten away with a crime of the century.

Not saying it isn't the case, but the likelihood of it according to this article? LESS than one half of one percent.

Again, I know several people want to follow the Klunder theory, but guys...there is an entire thread to discuss him until the cows come home.

I think the mods have been very clear where the MJK discussions are to take place. I don't want this thread shut down again.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I know there is a lot of information in all of these articles, but what I bolded speaks volumes.

Statistically speaking, the likelihood that L&L's abduction was carried out by a stranger - with each girl INDIVIDUALLY - runs at one HALF of one percent.

Now, what is the percentage of likelihood that TWO girls, cousins at that, were taken together by a stranger?

Whomever did this (if a stranger) has (so far) gotten away with a crime of the century.

Not saying it isn't the case, but the likelihood of it according to this article? LESS than one half of one percent.

Again, I know several people want to follow the Klunder theory, but guys...there is an entire thread to discuss him until the cows come home.

I think the mods have been very clear where the MJK discussions are to take place. I don't want this thread shut down again.

I'm with you regarding the statistics, which is why I haven't been able to accept that this was a random abduction/murder. While it could have happened, statistically speaking it is astronomically unlikely that a stranger took both girls. JMO.

 

[ktgirl]

I know it's not a popular opinion, but I'm still on the side of stranger (or perhaps slight acquaintance- like someone they'd seem around but didn't know) abduction by a sexual predator.

 

[alliemay]

I know it's not a popular opinion, but I'm still on the side of stranger (or perhaps slight acquaintance- like someone they'd seem around but didn't know) abduction by a sexual predator.

My opinion agrees with yours, they may have seen this person around, he may have even said hello to them in passing. But I don't feel this person is a close member of the family. Don't ask me why I feel this way but I do.

I have the day care center stuck in my mind. Someone who would have been aware that the day care center took the kids on walks around the park as part of their routine on a daily basis. I could be totally off base. In the meantime I pray that they have an arrest by Christmas.

 

[B4igo2it]

Published 10-06-2013 (snipped)

Officials have declined to say whether DNA evidence was found with Elizabeth’s and Lyric’s bodies. “We don’t want to reveal information that jeopardizes our investigation,” Evansdale Police Chief Kent Smock said last month.

Klunder’s actions continue to be an area of interest for Black Hawk County investigators, Abben said Friday, but “he is not the sole focus of our attention. Other leads continue to be uncovered and investigators continue to follow up on any and all information that comes in.”

http://seemydeath.com/murders/4880-no-justice-in-the-murder-of-kathlynn
-shepard-15-after-murderer-and-child-molester-commits-suicide.html#axzz2muamFGWQ

 

[B4igo2it]

"IF" DNA was found/collected at 7Bs, most likely it has been run through the national DNA database within the past year, and so far no hits. Searches are processed automatically once a week as there are continuously new additions to the database. We have to hope the POI will be arrested for another crime and/or under other evidence related to L&E so DNA can be collected & matched.

Fortunately, new legislation has passed increasing DNA database records:

(Thank you Skeet for this prev posting here on WS):
http://www.radioiowa.com/2013/05/15/...criminals-dna/

"Convicts who&#8217;re guilty of many aggravated misdemeanors in Iowa will have to submit a DNA sample after July 1, 2013. That&#8217;s when the bill Governor Terry Branstad signed into law today goes into effect."

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #32

Under the law, adults convicted of such crimes as aggravated misdemeanor assault and theft will submit a DNA sample. Previously, only convicted felons and sexual offenders were required to submit samples. The new law doesn't apply to convictions that happened before its passage.

 

[Squeeze]

I know there is a lot of information in all of these articles, but what I bolded speaks volumes.

Statistically speaking, the likelihood that L&L's abduction was carried out by a stranger - with each girl INDIVIDUALLY - runs at one HALF of one percent.

Now, what is the percentage of likelihood that TWO girls, cousins at that, were taken together by a stranger?

Whomever did this (if a stranger) has (so far) gotten away with a crime of the century.

Not saying it isn't the case, but the likelihood of it according to this article? LESS than one half of one percent.

Again, I know several people want to follow the Klunder theory, but guys...there is an entire thread to discuss him until the cows come home.

I think the mods have been very clear where the MJK discussions are to take place. I don't want this thread shut down again.

I don't understand. I get it that the odds of a child being abducted is remote. But look at the Klunder case. The reality is, he was a stranger to the two he abducted (at least I've never heard that they knew him). They were several years older than our girls, and were lured into his vehicle. To my knowledge, there were no witnesses. The only reason they caught him was that one of them got away. So why is it so hard to think that he could have lured two younger, more niave girls into his vehicle. I actually think this improves the odds that it WAS Klunder. Especially if he thought he could get away with it again. And the fact that they are cousins is less important than the fact that they were TOGETHER.

 

[Sunlight]

I think it is very possible that Klunder did this, but the investigators have, at this time, no evidence that he did. They are continuing to follow other leads.

MOO

 

[SapphireSteel]

The only thing DNA proves is that DNA was found.
Look at JB. A party of six on her clothing.

 

[threecrazykids]

I don't understand. I get it that the odds of a child being abducted is remote. But look at the Klunder case. The reality is, he was a stranger to the two he abducted (at least I've never heard that they knew him). They were several years older than our girls, and were lured into his vehicle. To my knowledge, there were no witnesses. The only reason they caught him was that one of them got away. So why is it so hard to think that he could have lured two younger, more niave girls into his vehicle. I actually think this improves the odds that it WAS Klunder. Especially if he thought he could get away with it again. And the fact that they are cousins is less important than the fact that they were TOGETHER.

Please don't think that I'm ruling out anyone at this point. If Klunder does end up eventually being linked I won't be shocked, I simply don't want this thread shut down because discussions of Klunder keep eeking their way back onto this thread when the mods have made it clear they want discussions of him on the other thread.

I completely understand and appreciate the Klunder theory. I also follow the Klunder thread. Just because I don't personally feel he is responsible doesn't mean I am completely ignoring the possibility. I simply don't want this thread shut down for clean up for the 3rd time because Klunder conversations keep coming back over here is all.

No offense meant.

 

[SapphireSteel]

We still don't have COD.

I bet my house that it was NOT sexually motivated.

moo

 

[margarita25]

Its a totally different crime Imo

Remember another little girl was taken in Colo the same week as Jessica - had to be the same prep too. ..except it wasn't.

The other girl in Colo? Are you thinking of the Wyoming case and Jesse Speer? Still, I know what you mean.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The other girl in Colo? Are you thinking of the Wyoming case and Jesse Speer? Still, I know what you mean.

Yes sorry.

If they found DNA its already tested.

They would know if it was MK by now.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The other girl in Colo? Are you thinking of the Wyoming case and Jesse Speer? Still, I know what you mean.

Please don't think that I'm ruling out anyone at this point. If Klunder does end up eventually being linked I won't be shocked, I simply don't want this thread shut down because discussions of Klunder keep eeking their way back onto this thread when the mods have made it clear they want discussions of him on the other thread.

I completely understand and appreciate the Klunder theory. I also follow the Klunder thread. Just because I don't personally feel he is responsible doesn't mean I am completely ignoring the possibility. I simply don't want this thread shut down for clean up for the 3rd time because Klunder conversations keep coming back over here is all.

No offense meant.

Amen !