Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

[dotr]

Stereotyping, I think.

My opinion only. And truthfully, if it is a sex crime (LE has never said that), the odds of a female killer are pretty close to zero.

If it's not a sex crime, a woman would be likely.

Hoping ( and thinking ) that the reason LE were sure it was a male is because they had the perp's DNA . imo.

 

[SpringThyme]

Drove through Waterloo this summer and have to agree that both locations would only be on the radar of a local. Maybe the perp is similar to the new POI in the Jacob Wetterling case: a loner, low functioning, probable history of sex crimes but no actual criminal record. DNA technology finally advanced enough to ID him in a similar abduction. Hope that will be the case for the girls.


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[Grainne Dhu]

I'm confused what you mean...you had questioned whether or not they HAD any DNA - I was just pointing out articles that I had bookmarked that appeared that they were submitting DNA comparisons for testing is all...

I agree, no mention of results - but I think this indicates DNA of some sort - whether or not it's a good/full profile or not isn't going to be released.

I just remember LE stating from the get go that they didn't think Klunder was tied to the case, and even mentioned something along the lines of it not taking long to rule him out. When they said that I had the feeling the evidence they DID have pretty much ruled him out. But - with no arrests being made in the case, it was probably safest to prove with 100% certainty it wasn't Klunder. If for no reason other than to squash a defense attorney's rebuttal of "but you didn't even investigate/test Klunder's DNA". ESPECIALLY if what they do have is only a partial match.

Perhaps LE has DNA that is so degraded that it only rules out 50% of all people: women.

Since this perp was almost certainly male, being able to rule out women would not be a significant lead.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Stereotyping, I think.

My opinion only. And truthfully, if it is a sex crime (LE has never said that), the odds of a female killer are pretty close to zero.

If it's not a sex crime, a woman would be likely.

If you are referring to criminal attacks where women have abducted a child so as to pretend that the child is their own, such attacks are almost 100% directed at infants less than 12 months old. I can only think of one such crime where the child was 4 years old. Above 4 to 5 years old, the risk of the child remembering their own name and able to take some type of action to escape or attract help is just enormous. Two cousins would act to reinforce each other's pre-abduction memories and would probably work together to escape or attract help.

I agree with you that the perp is almost certainly male.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Drove through Waterloo this summer and have to agree that both locations would only be on the radar of a local. Maybe the perp is similar to the new POI in the Jacob Wetterling case: a loner, low functioning, probable history of sex crimes but no actual criminal record. DNA technology finally advanced enough to ID him in a similar abduction. Hope that will be the case for the girls.

Off topic but WOW! I had not heard about the new POI in the Wetterling case. I never thought DR did it and have long hoped that the actual perp would be caught so DR's name would be cleared. Poor guy, there is nothing that could possibly compensate him for the hell he's gone through over that case.

Having done some reading on this new POI, I think they've got the perp. And, just as has been theorised with this case, turns out he had been interviewed about Jacob Wetterling back in 1989, so he was already in their files. They just didn't pick up on him and DNA testing was in its infancy back then. This new guy has been DNA connected to the Cold Spring assault case prior to Jacob Wetterling's abduction. That abduction was one of a number of very similar assaults, which included one in which the perp confronted two boys, singled out one and sent the other running for his life (from the boy's point of view).

As a dog trainer, something I often say is "it is never the first time." Meaning that when someone brings me a dog that suddenly has a behavioural issue, the triggering event is never really the first time. Even if the owner swears up and down that the dog never nipped or bit before, when I question them it always turns out that the dog had a long history of showing lots of signs of fear and discomfort (well over 90% of all dog bites are fear motivated) but the owner never really put the dots together. This new POI may not have abducted and killed any of his previous victims but there's definitely a pattern there. Jacob Wetterling would not have been his first time.

I also find it interesting that this new POI is not a POI for any other (probable) murders. That ties in with what RichKelly wrote about the perp in Lyric and Elizabeth's case: the perp probably doesn't feel good about killing them and he may well never kill again. My guess would be that if the POI for Jacob Wetterling never killed again, that he himself felt ashamed and guilty over killing Jacob. It may have been done out of panic rather than a specific desire to kill. He clearly got something out of assaulting tween-aged boys but maybe that's it. He didn't want to kill and once he killed, the memory put him off further attacks. Or, at the very least, further murders.

 

[carbuff]

If you are referring to criminal attacks where women have abducted a child so as to pretend that the child is their own, such attacks are almost 100% directed at infants less than 12 months old. I can only think of one such crime where the child was 4 years old. Above 4 to 5 years old, the risk of the child remembering their own name and able to take some type of action to escape or attract help is just enormous. Two cousins would act to reinforce each other's pre-abduction memories and would probably work together to escape or attract help.

I agree with you that the perp is almost certainly male.

I wasn't thinking of that kind of kidnapping, I was thinking of things like, for example, domestic violence, thrill kill, saw something they shouldn't have, killed for the insurance, killed for revenge, killed because somebody wanted to steal their bikes and they fought back, etc. Any of those could be a woman or even a young person. And what if that purse Lizzie took everywhere had something that she had found that an adult wanted, like an incriminating picture or something?

Things like domestic violence and insurance can be ruled out since LE has stressed the family's non-involvement, but I hope they looked into some of the others before deciding it was a sex crime.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I've been on a Jacob Wetterling marathon since I heard he is a POI in that abduction.

After reading the search warrant, two things stuck out. One is that Heinrich was fired from one job in early October 1989 and hired for another job in early November 1989. Jacob was abducted on 22 October 1989. That goes right along with what RichKelly said about a triggering event in the perp's life.

The other thing that stuck out was yet another example of how misleading eyewitness testimony can be. Jared, a boy who was abducted, sexually assaulted and then released on 13 January 1989 and whose case was linked to Jacob's within weeks of Jacob's disappearance, was shown a photo line up and also a live line up. Both times, he did pick Heinrich but also picked another photo/man from each line up and gave a higher rating to his sense of confidence to the wrong picks. Heinrich has now been linked via DNA to Jared's case but cannot be prosecuted because the statute of limitations has run out.

How could Jared have been wrong about a man who physically forced him into his car, drove him to an isolated location, sexually assaulted him and then drove him around some more before dropping him off approximately 1.5 hours after Jacob first encountered him? Jacob was just human with all the normal limitations of human memory and a big dose of terror and trauma on top.

So when people talk about wanting eyewitnesses to Lyric and Elizabeth's case, I would rather have forensic evidence. Memories change, memories fade, memory can be highly inaccurate even immediately after an event. An eyewitness would be better than nothing but not necessarily indicative of something, if you see what I mean.

 

[nikb]

I just have to say how heartbroken I am to see this in the Cold Cases. I took a pretty long necessary break from the boards and came back to find it here. I was so hoping to find other news instead.

 

[dotr]

I just have to say how heartbroken I am to see this in the Cold Cases. I took a pretty long necessary break from the boards and came back to find it here. I was so hoping to find other news instead.

Welcome back nikb, missed your presence here!

 

[nikb]

Welcome back nikb, missed your presence here!

Aw thank you. I've missed the boards and everyone here too, it was just breaking my heart too much to see all these cases dragging on unsolved.

 

[Considering]

:sigh: It was three years ago yesterday that the girls' bodies were found.

http://www.kcci.com/news/3-years-later-remembering-the-evansdale-girls/36757134

 

[tlcya]

I never imagined we would be here three years later and have nothing. Be no closer to who killed our cousins

 

[tlcya]

when they found the girls, we all thought, now, here we go. We have the bodies, we have a crime scene, we have all this new stuff for LE to look at. And still. No closer. Disheartening.

 

[Squeeze]

They just had an update on the girls, this 3rd anniversary of the day their bodies were found. They DO know the cause of death, but they aren't releasing it, and only a few people know what it is. Should be a link to the story available soon.

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[JanetElaine]

They just had an update on the girls, this 3rd anniversary of the day their bodies were found. They DO know the cause of death, but they aren't releasing it, and only a few people know what it is. Should be a link to the story available soon.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/30694357/...investigators-stay-positive-after-three-years

Heather and Drew Collins believe the girls were killed the same day they were abducted, but they don't know how the girls were killed.
"It's something we know, and very few of even the officers know. We don't let that get out. And it's something that the person responsible knows," said Roehrkasse.

 

[dotr]

http://www.kwwl.com/story/30694357/...investigators-stay-positive-after-three-years

rbbm.
Thanks for posting this update, JanetElaine!
How could they go through with killing 2 sweet little girls ?!
Glad LE are continuing to bring in lots of experts to help define the fiend.
imo.


"I can't imagine how terrified especially Elizabeth was and her sweet little face and Lyric's little face, her smile and how could someone could actually go through with it and kill them," said Heather Collins.

Three years after their little bodies were found, lead DCI investigator Mike Roehrkasse says they try to stay positive.

"We know there's still a lot of work that can be done so we haven't hit a dead end," said Roehrkasse.

He says they continue to investigate, bringing in local experts, FBI agents, and experts from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children."

 

[EllieBee]

Just wondering if Heather thinks Lyric was to blame. She seems to indicate that Elizabeth was frightened....and that Lyric's face was only small, not frightened so much. Very weird, this family.

 

[IfILostHim]

Just wondering if Heather thinks Lyric was to blame. She seems to indicate that Elizabeth was frightened....and that Lyric's face was only small, not frightened so much. Very weird, this family.

Thank you for saying that. I can't imagine both of them not being terrified. Why she would single one out like that is weird. I wonder if it's someone that Lyric knew? Or that she feels she caused it somehow.

 

[dotr]

Thank you for saying that. I can't imagine both of them not being terrified. Why she would single one out like that is weird. I wonder if it's someone that Lyric knew? Or that she feels she caused it somehow.

Welcome to Ws.IfILostHim, thanks for your very first post here too!

 

[IfILostHim]

Welcome to Ws.IfILostHim, thanks for your very first post here too!

Thanks! I've been a lurker for a long while. I honestly thought I had posted before. Tapatalk gives me issues with this board for some reason though. [emoji20]