Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

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re: leeches

Generally they don't live in dirty water.
 
re: leeches

Generally they don't live in dirty water.

Yep - I think that is a common misconception. Our kids get little leeches on them when they decide it's a great idea to swim in the creek that goes through our neighborhood property. We also visit a cabin in northern Minnesota, and when my daughter was about 3 her favorite pastime in the boat was what we called "slinkying" those GINORMOUS leeches between her hands. She'd dip them in the water and they would expand out what (to me) looked like a foot. ICK!!! That lake is a glacier formed lake and crystal clear - you can see those huge ones coming through the water like an eel.:eek:

Bleh, those things are too much like snakes to me *shiver*
 
Sorry, I've been out of town for the 4th so catching up. According to google maps, the Evansdale Nature Trail most certainly ends right at the parking lot...which shows Elmer Ave. I don't see the trail continuing on next to Elmer back into Evansdale. If you could re-post the zoomed in map of the trail around Meyer's Lake, that would be great as I have zero map skills when it comes to putting them in a post. Thanks!

I don't see why it's so unrealistic for the girls to turn off of the Evansdale Nature Trail onto Gilbert - especially if someone told them to meet at Meyer's Lake. Why would the girls assume to continue on the trail to the drainage gate? We've already determined that VERY few people even knew Maiden Lane existed - let alone these children. So where would you go at Meyer's Lake to "meet"? Naturally, the parking lot. If they are coming down the nature trail towards the gate - they would turn right at Gilbert - and would go right by Mr. Carpenter's house. Gilbert intersects Elmer which is where they were spotted, and if you follow Elmer it goes right to the lake.

I guess I don't see why that is not a viable possibility. It makes more sense to me when it comes to accounting all of the various sightings - confirmed by LE or not. And I don't agree that they are necessarily "excluding" Mr. Gamerdinger's sighting, nor Mr. Carpenter's. They simply aren't confirming it during PR's. They haven't named ANYONE'S sighting as confirmed. They simply said they had "confirmed sightings" and listed the locations.

I truly feel they have the names and exact times of more than one person who can place those girls at different locations along whatever route they took - they just aren't going to name them in the media.

The Evansdale Nature Trail is part of the Cedar Valley Lakes Trail. The girls were cycling on a portion of the Cedar Valley Lakes Trail. This tourism map illustrates the trail.

http://www.cedarfallstourism.org/webres/File/trails/Cedar Valley Bike Trails 04-11-12.pdf

The girls were cycling West towards River Forest Road on video, which is the opposite direction of the N-S trail from Lafayette to Gilbert. Additionally, if they had circled around and cycled East on Lafayette to the N-S trail, I think at least one camera (in addition to the Auction shop camera that has them traveling in the opposite direction) would have captured their movements. No cameras on Lafayette had footage of the girls. That leads me to believe that they cycled West to River Forest Road, turned South, navigated to Gilbert Drive, where they were seen between 12:30 and 1PM at Elmer and Gilbert. They continued to Lake Ave (where the lawn watering man saw them) at 1:15-ish, and then they continued South to the drainage gate. Elizabeth had cycled to her friends house which is one block West of the lawn watering man's house, so she was familiar with at least one route for getting from her house to the friend's house ... and for some reason I doubt that her parents advised her to take the nature trail to get there. I think Elizabeth took a familiar route. In addition to cycling to her friend's house (next to the lake), Elizabeth had also cycled to the lake at least once with neighbor friends.
 

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Also - just to clarify and stick to facts:

"He placed each of them in a shallow ditch in an area where the water levels rise enough to place the area where bones were found under water. Fortunately, their bones had not been scattered by a high river."

Their remains were not clarified as "bones", nor were they found in a ditch of any sort, nor were they found under water. If I missed confirmation that their remains were indeed bones, please correct me. For all we know, the bodies could have been wrapped up in small tarps, dismembered, or even kept for any length of time before disposal. We just don't know, as far as I can recollect. And due to the extreme drought that year, the water levels were exceptionally low, leaving that riverbed fully exposed, where it normally may raise to.

Yes, the area is well concealed due to the deep vegetation, but it's not a ditch at all. It's a flat stretch of land that meets the bend of the river. When I was there I can assure you that a quad could make it back there - it may take maneuvering around the trees, unless they literally followed the walking path to the curve of the river and THEN decided to enter the deep vegetation and dump.

Also-again, this is not correct:
"On the day that the girls were abducted, a vehicle similar to this was spotted on Arbutus near Lake Avenue, and next to the trees on the East edge of Meyer's Lake Park in Evansdale; a leech infested lake filled with household appliances and debris. How could anyone think that the girls were swimming in that lake? Surely the girls, and everyone else, knew better."

I believe you are confusing Meyer's Lake with Seven Bridges. Meyer's Lake isn't leech "infested" nor are there ANY appliances or debris. The appliances that I mentioned in my videos were at Seven Bridges, not Meyer's Lake. The lake is a beautiful area - surrounded by very nice homes. They certainly aren't doing this huge beautification project around a place where people just randomly dump unwanted appliances and debris. At Seven Bridges? Yes. But not at Meyer's Lake.
And as far as the leech "infestation" goes, I challenge you to find ANY lake in Iowa that doesn't have leeches. But to say it's leech "infested" is a gross mis-classification of the lake itself. It's not a cesspool body of water. It's a man made lake that is apt to have leeches, just as any murky bottom lake you're going to find here. Leeches actually prefer slower-moving bodies of fresh water as a habitat.

I promise I'm not picking on anyone - I am just finding that the longer this case goes along, opinions and assumptions are almost being portrayed as facts.

I'm not saying AT ALL that my ideas of what COULD have happened are any more realistic than another posters. I just want to make sure that what little we DO know stays straight...which sadly, isn't squat.

I just can't believe that in 6 days it will be 3 years and no resolution. :gaah:

They weren't found under water, but the area where they were found has been known to flood. I'm pretty sure that I read that the nearby bridge was washed out several years ago, and the fact that the bridge was not rebuilt is one of the reasons that the park was abandoned as a recreational site. If the water levels were high enough to wash out a bridge, then the area where the girls were located - near the bank of the river - is prone to flooding.

When I look at the aerial photos of the remains (perhaps my eyes are playing tricks on me), they appear to be in a depression in the ground, which I called a shallow ditch, but a depression in the ground is perhaps more accurate. It looks like the river bank rises to the trail, and the girls are found on the opposite side of the trail in what looks like a depression in the ground.

The remains were not described as bones. Shoes were used to identify the remains. The girls had been missing for six months when their remains were found. I'm assuming that the girls were killed within the first few hours after abduction (per statistics) and that they were exposed to the elements for six months. If that is the case, they would be nearly bones and one of the few quick ways to identify them would be through clothing that would not deteriorate - such as shoes.

The girls were not swimming in Meyer's Lake. "For Tim Roney, 60, it’s hard to recall a time when Evansdale has received the amount of attention it has this week. Roney said he recalls swimming in Meyers Lake in the 1960s. At that time it was a smaller, stream-fed lake, he said. “You don’t go swimming there now, or you’ll get leeches.” (link). We know that there were appliances dumped in the lake because when the lake was drained, appliances were exposed.
 
The Evansdale Nature Trail is part of the Cedar Valley Lakes Trail. The girls were cycling on a portion of the Cedar Valley Lakes Trail. This tourism map illustrates the trail.

http://www.cedarfallstourism.org/webres/File/trails/Cedar Valley Bike Trails 04-11-12.pdf

The girls were cycling West towards River Forest Road on video, which is the opposite direction of the N-S trail from Lafayette to Gilbert. Additionally, if they had circled around and cycled East on Lafayette to the N-S trail, I think at least one camera (in addition to the Auction shop camera that has them traveling in the opposite direction) would have captured their movements. No cameras on Lafayette had footage of the girls. That leads me to believe that they cycled West to River Forest Road, turned South, navigated to Gilbert Drive, where they were seen between 12:30 and 1PM at Elmer and Gilbert. They continued to Lake Ave (where the lawn watering man saw them) at 1:15-ish, and then they continued South to the drainage gate. Elizabeth had cycled to her friends house which is one block West of the lawn watering man's house, so she was familiar with at least one route for getting from her house to the friend's house ... and for some reason I doubt that her parents advised her to take the nature trail to get there. I think Elizabeth took a familiar route. In addition to cycling to her friend's house (next to the lake), Elizabeth had also cycled to the lake at least once with neighbor friends.

I understand your route, but it's just a difference in our posting verbiage that confuses me. :blushing: The bolded (to me) sound like you are stating confirmed facts, which I find confusing.

"The girls were cycling on a portion of the Cedar Valley Lakes Trail" and "No cameras on Lafayette had footage of the girls" aren't confirmed facts, yet you state them as if they are. The girls were seen riding on Brovan I believe - which, as far as I know, isn't part of any bike trail. I'd be thrilled as heck to stick to only your assumed route as the route the girls took, but I haven't seen confirmation anywhere other than Brovan and then the Elmer and Gilbert intersection.

Regardless of which way the girls were riding on the video - we all know how fast kids can get from one place to the next, and that may not be a route that we, as adults, would find logical.

Also - it has to be considered RUMOR, but on social media there was a gentleman who was tweeting and posting that he was the IT manager of First Security State Bank (which easy sleuthing confirmed his name matched the bank's info) that LE had requested security video (that was all he could state). We also have the RUMOR that the girls had asked for directions to the lake at Fareway. These are statements I'm taking INTO CONSIDERATION. I'm simply NOT ruling that (or any route) out. I can't/won't stick to one route just because IMO it seems the most logical way. These are kids.

I personally would think the nature trail route WOULD be a route that Elizabeth's parents may want her to take to her friends home. I know I'd rather my child take the nature trail than send her down one of the busiest 4 lane roads in Evansdale. Plus, the nature trail route is a much closer shot to the friends house, has the Four Queens Dairy Cream (ice cream shop) and the skate park all wrapped into one ride for find other kids on a lazy Friday summer day.

No matter which route the girls took, I do believe that there may be video/sightings that LE hasn't mentioned.

I am really not trying to argue, I just want to keep my facts straight as to the few things we DO know, and also keep my mind open to a plethora of opinions/ideas of what happened that day - not just my ideas, but many of the other great ideas that others here have posted as well.

I'd rather talk circles for months and keep this thread hoppin' versus shut down ideas and watch it sink pages deep when I look at "new posts" with no updates.
 
Sorry, I've been out of town for the 4th so catching up. According to google maps, the Evansdale Nature Trail most certainly ends right at the parking lot...which shows Elmer Ave. I don't see the trail continuing on next to Elmer back into Evansdale. If you could re-post the zoomed in map of the trail around Meyer's Lake, that would be great as I have zero map skills when it comes to putting them in a post. Thanks!

I don't see why it's so unrealistic for the girls to turn off of the Evansdale Nature Trail onto Gilbert - especially if someone told them to meet at Meyer's Lake. Why would the girls assume to continue on the trail to the drainage gate? We've already determined that VERY few people even knew Maiden Lane existed - let alone these children. So where would you go at Meyer's Lake to "meet"? Naturally, the parking lot. If they are coming down the nature trail towards the gate - they would turn right at Gilbert - and would go right by Mr. Carpenter's house. Gilbert intersects Elmer which is where they were spotted, and if you follow Elmer it goes right to the lake.

I guess I don't see why that is not a viable possibility. It makes more sense to me when it comes to accounting all of the various sightings - confirmed by LE or not. And I don't agree that they are necessarily "excluding" Mr. Gamerdinger's sighting, nor Mr. Carpenter's. They simply aren't confirming it during PR's. They haven't named ANYONE'S sighting as confirmed. They simply said they had "confirmed sightings" and listed the locations.

I truly feel they have the names and exact times of more than one person who can place those girls at different locations along whatever route they took - they just aren't going to name them in the media.

I just realize that if they took the route you describe - South on the Nature Trail, West on Gilbert, past the lawn watering man, and then to the parking lot on Elmer/Gilbert, the timeline does not fit. They were seen near Lake after they were seen at Elmer, whereas your route has them at Lake before Elmer. If we exclude the sighting at Lake Avenue, then it works.
 
They weren't found under water, but the area where they were found has been known to flood. I'm pretty sure that I read that the nearby bridge was washed out several years ago, and the fact that the bridge was not rebuilt is one of the reasons that the park was abandoned as a recreational site. If the water levels were high enough to wash out a bridge, then the area where the girls were located - near the bank of the river - is prone to flooding.

When I look at the aerial photos of the remains (perhaps my eyes are playing tricks on me), they appear to be in a depression in the ground, which I called a shallow ditch, but a depression in the ground is perhaps more accurate. It looks like the river bank rises to the trail, and the girls are found on the opposite side of the trail in what looks like a depression in the ground.

The remains were not described as bones. Shoes were used to identify the remains. The girls had been missing for six months when their remains were found. I'm assuming that the girls were killed within the first few hours after abduction (per statistics) and that they were exposed to the elements for six months. If that is the case, they would be nearly bones and one of the few quick ways to identify them would be through clothing that would not deteriorate - such as shoes.

The girls were not swimming in Meyer's Lake. "For Tim Roney, 60, it’s hard to recall a time when Evansdale has received the amount of attention it has this week. Roney said he recalls swimming in Meyers Lake in the 1960s. At that time it was a smaller, stream-fed lake, he said. “You don’t go swimming there now, or you’ll get leeches.” (link). We know that there were appliances dumped in the lake because when the lake was drained, appliances were exposed.

I won't argue that you could get leeches, but like I said...to say it's leech infested I think is a gross exaggeration. And could you reference where you saw appliances being exposed during the lake drain? I must have totally missed that one. I DO remember commenting during my trip with the videos at Seven Bridges seeing several appliances dumped along my walk from the turn-about to the location of their remains...but never once do I remember seeing a picture or reading about Meyer's Lake having appliances in it.

Anyone else remember this? I must be completely forgetting this tidbit.
 
I just realize that if they took the route you describe - South on the Nature Trail, West on Gilbert, past the lawn watering man, and then to the parking lot on Elmer/Gilbert, the timeline does not fit. They were seen near Lake after they were seen at Elmer, whereas your route has them at Lake before Elmer. If we exclude the sighting at Lake Avenue, then it works.

Didn't the Lake Ave sighting have them "between 1 and 3"? If they were at Elmer/Gilbert at 12:30/1 then maybe they did take River Forest to the Gilbert Drive trail...down to the Lake/Arbutus area.

Sadly, LE hasn't confirmed Mr Carpenter OR Mr. Gamerdingers sightings so we could easily exclude both of them.

Too bad LE won't give us more details on the route..that would sure help us!
 
I understand your route, but it's just a difference in our posting verbiage that confuses me. :blushing: The bolded (to me) sound like you are stating confirmed facts, which I find confusing.

"The girls were cycling on a portion of the Cedar Valley Lakes Trail" and "No cameras on Lafayette had footage of the girls" aren't confirmed facts, yet you state them as if they are. The girls were seen riding on Brovan I believe - which, as far as I know, isn't part of any bike trail. I'd be thrilled as heck to stick to only your assumed route as the route the girls took, but I haven't seen confirmation anywhere other than Brovan and then the Elmer and Gilbert intersection.

Regardless of which way the girls were riding on the video - we all know how fast kids can get from one place to the next, and that may not be a route that we, as adults, would find logical.

Also - it has to be considered RUMOR, but on social media there was a gentleman who was tweeting and posting that he was the IT manager of First Security State Bank (which easy sleuthing confirmed his name matched the bank's info) that LE had requested security video (that was all he could state). We also have the RUMOR that the girls had asked for directions to the lake at Fareway. These are statements I'm taking INTO CONSIDERATION. I'm simply NOT ruling that (or any route) out. I can't/won't stick to one route just because IMO it seems the most logical way. These are kids.

I personally would think the nature trail route WOULD be a route that Elizabeth's parents may want her to take to her friends home. I know I'd rather my child take the nature trail than send her down one of the busiest 4 lane roads in Evansdale. Plus, the nature trail route is a much closer shot to the friends house, has the Four Queens Dairy Cream (ice cream shop) and the skate park all wrapped into one ride for find other kids on a lazy Friday summer day.

No matter which route the girls took, I do believe that there may be video/sightings that LE hasn't mentioned.

I am really not trying to argue, I just want to keep my facts straight as to the few things we DO know, and also keep my mind open to a plethora of opinions/ideas of what happened that day - not just my ideas, but many of the other great ideas that others here have posted as well.

I'd rather talk circles for months and keep this thread hoppin' versus shut down ideas and watch it sink pages deep when I look at "new posts" with no updates.

When police were desperately looking for the girls, they released video footage of them. That video footage came from a half block from Elizabeth's home. If there was additional footage of them at any point farther away from her home, wouldn't police have released that footage? Is it not reasonable to state that because the only footage that was released was so close to home, that there is no additional footage? Or is it reasonable that police have additional video footage of the girls after they left Brovan (where Elizabeth lived) and police have withheld that footage?
 
I won't argue that you could get leeches, but like I said...to say it's leech infested I think is a gross exaggeration. And could you reference where you saw appliances being exposed during the lake drain? I must have totally missed that one. I DO remember commenting during my trip with the videos at Seven Bridges seeing several appliances dumped along my walk from the turn-about to the location of their remains...but never once do I remember seeing a picture or reading about Meyer's Lake having appliances in it.

Anyone else remember this? I must be completely forgetting this tidbit.

The man that lives there said that the lake has leeches. Where there's one, there's many. It is not a swimming lake.

"Cook-Morrisey said the lake is about a mile and a half from Collins’ home. Though swimming is prohibited at the lake, she said her daughter might have tried to anyway. Cook-Morrisey said they swim at another nearby lake regularly and she is a good swimmer."

http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/...lies-hold-out-hope-for-two-missing-iowa-girls

Here are a couple of the links related to the post-draining clean-up. More are available.

"The candles, stuffed animals, flowers and pink ribbons remain. Everything else is heading for the landfill. The debris included tires, plywood, wooden pallets, bottles, cans, a folding lawn chair and card table that found their way to the bottom of Meyers Lake."

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/vo...cle_c71104ee-ef25-11e1-a5bc-001a4bcf887a.html

"Officials don't want to miss the chance to remove old furniture and tires from the lake bed this time"

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_56e21803-31f0-550c-9991-4aea1bb5eb07.html
 
RBBM: "shoes were used to identify the remains" (per Otto's post)

IIRC, I remember reading that LC was wearing black or purple flip flops. Wondering if they were found on her body or near her body or in the area.

imo
 
A question for Grainne: How long could the girls' scent last at Meyers Lake? Could their scent still be picked up from them being there a couple of days before? Thank you Grainne.

SBM

I'm assuming that the weather in the Waterloo/Cedar Falls metro was similar to the weather we had that day in central Iowa: warm and humid.

Under those conditions, I've watched the local SAR group's dogs get good hits for about 3 days and then the scent started to tail off.

So, I'd expect 3 days and perhaps as long as 6 days.

There is one huge possible exception: if one of the girls peed in that little patch of woods, the scent from urine lasts quite a bit longer. I don't have any sense of whether the girls would be likely to pee in that little patch of woods if they were caught short or not. I know I probably would have since I grew up hiking and camping in areas where the nearest latrines were a couple hours' walk.

The other possibility is that if they were forcibly accosted, one or both of them may have lost bladder control due to the sudden terror.
 
http://www.kwwl.com/story/22671327/2013/06/24/evansdale

SBM:
Authorities on Monday morning said they have three separate witnesses who say they saw a white, older-model, full-size SUV-type vehicle -- similar to a Chevy Suburban or a Ford Bronco

IMO this description released by LE, causes conflict and confusion. Full size SUV and Suburban to me are almost conflicting terms. To me, an SUV is an SUV...not a Surburban. A Surburban is clearly much larger than a full size SUV, but obviously the witnesses weren't able to determine with certainty which the vehicle was. I can see a Suburban and a truck with a topper being confused though.

To me, a Suburban is a large SUV just because it's not a van and not really a pickup, so what other category would it go into?
 
I won't argue that you could get leeches, but like I said...to say it's leech infested I think is a gross exaggeration. And could you reference where you saw appliances being exposed during the lake drain? I must have totally missed that one. I DO remember commenting during my trip with the videos at Seven Bridges seeing several appliances dumped along my walk from the turn-about to the location of their remains...but never once do I remember seeing a picture or reading about Meyer's Lake having appliances in it.

Anyone else remember this? I must be completely forgetting this tidbit.

I so loathe leeches that to me, any body of water where you could get one I'd describe as 'leech infested.' There never is just one!

I recall seeing some household appliances on one of the photos of Meyer's Lake after it was drained. It wasn't full but obviously a few people had used it as an illegal dump. They probably didn't think it was a big deal because who swims there? LEECHES!
 
Oh it truly is a full size SUV - no doubt. But for whatever reason I could clearly decipher between a Ford Bronco and a Suburban. To me, a Suburban is almost twice the size of a Bronco...but maybe they only saw the vehicle from the back end...and in that case I can see where they'd not be certain.

Plus - just leaving the description more broad leaves it open to different possibilities. Unless all of the witnesses were 100% sure it was a Suburban or 100% were certain it was an older Ford Bronco, this leaves more room for possibilities if people saw from different angles.

Which...as of today, doesn't seem to matter since we've seen nothing come of it.

How many people who drive an OLDER, full size, boxy, white SUV frequent Seven Bridges? One would think that would at least slim down the suspect pool a little bit...apparently not enough. :(
 
I wonder if they meant Explorer rather than Bronco.
 
What bothers me the most about the SUV sitings is that they waited to long to bring this to the attention of the public. If even just one of those sitings had been released to the public early on its possible this vehicle would have been found by now.
 
For anyone local, there is a ceremony coming up at Angels Park:

Angels Park will be having a "Park Preview " Monday July 13th from 4 to 7. Anyone is welcome! We will have a sky lantern release at 6:30 in memory of Elizabeth and Lyric.

https://www.facebook.com/AngelsParkMemorial/posts/831297206977809?fref=nf

It is hard to believe that these two girls have been gone for almost 3 years, and their thread has been moved to the Cold Case section. I'm glad so many of us are still keeping the girls in our thoughts!
 
What bothers me the most about the SUV sitings is that they waited to long to bring this to the attention of the public. If even just one of those sitings had been released to the public early on its possible this vehicle would have been found by now.

This puzzles me, too.
 
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