IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #4

[Jules71]

Here is a question...
Mom Misty got out of jail May 30/31. She said they have been swimming a lot (different lake) in the past 5 weeks she was not working. Then she started working at Casey's 5 days before the girls went missing. The Collinses confirmed what I knew from court records that Lyric lived with them for awhile. When did Heather get sick again? And up to what point had Lyric been living with them? Court records show 2007 but I am not sure about that. How long has Lyric been living with grandma? Did she go back to grandma's because Heather got sick or because mom got out of jail?

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[nikb]

IIRC the biker had posted on FB that the call he made to his daughter when he stopped at the restroom was made at 12:27. He used that call time to estimate the time he would have passed the bikes on the trail based on how long it took to bike to the store where he stopped to use the restroom. I believe that's where the exact number 12:27 and not 12:30 came from. It's amazing how much the difference in a few minutes seems in this case.

Ah thank you! I was trying to find that. It was starting to freak me out that he had SUCH an exact time after I started thinking about how hard it'd be to remember what time something happened, especially something that didn't seem very important at the time (girls going out on bikes for a bit). That makes sense.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Two things this made me think of...
If grandma, aunt T, and E's big brother looked for the girls at the lake - who was watching the younger Collins kids in the home? At that same time it was said Heather went into Pd to report girls missing.

Also I keep asking this but why didn't aunt, brother, grandma find the bikes between the time they arrived at the lake at 2:45 and an hour and 15 mins later when they were found by LE?

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I believe it was Lyric's 15 year old brother that joined in the search before LE was called.

That would leave Elizabeth's 12 year old brother at home to take care of his two younger sisters. That seems less than ideal as a regular arrangement but in an emergency? Doesn't sound awful to me.

As for why the family didn't find the bicycles first, Ollipop could explain it better but I will have a go. The place where the bicycles were found in on the other side of the lake from the parking area where the family stopped to ask people if they'd seen the two girls.

That area is in a dip in the trail that has a tall fence on either side of the trail. There are overgrown weeds and vines covering both fences, plus overhanging trees. That dip is approximately 30 yards long and the rest of the trail is open vista.

You have to be within approximately 15 yards of where the bikes were found in order to see that area.

If I've made a mistake in describing the terrain, I hope one of the locals will correct me.

 

[Jules71]

Lyric's brother was said to be with Dad at his mother's house. I do believe it was E's brother searching.

My question of the family searching is would you really only look visibly for them from the dock area? I imagine walking around the entire lake to find them especially if they had someone say he saw them there just 15 mins prior. They had 75 minutes before the fireman found the bikes. The man said they were going east from the main parking lot area - why wouldn't you start walking that way to find them?

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[Kamille]

I have a question for the locals. When looking at the map, if the girls were abducted from that forested area, the perp would have to travel across Gilbert to River Forest to get on the highway. Is there still construction there or does it clear at that on ramp.

Pretty risky too considering that they would have had to drive past the local police and fire station on Gilbert. Wouldn't they have some kind of video surveillance outside that building?

If they went in the other direction, there really isn't anywhere to go to get out of the area quickly.

MOO

 

[SapphireSteel]

Thinking out loud -

No one actually saw them at the lake, at all.

I believe they were abducted.

What I'm not sure of, is motive.

The first thing that springs to mind, unfortunately, is a sex offender.

The second thing that has occurred to me, is abduction for revenge. It could be someone aggrieved with the parents. A drug deal gone very bad.

The third possibility is abduction for profit. There was a case recently of a mother in the UK who faked her daughter's abduction, because she had seen the donations that Madeleine McCann's parents had received, and thought it was an easy way to make a million...even if it did mean having her daughter chained to some fellows criminals bed. Still, at least she was alive and well, and rescued.

 

[gitana1]

I don't think any family member is involved. I believe it was a sexual predator who may have seen the girls riding on the bike path on a prior day and then made his plans to grab both of them.

After listening to the aunt on NG, it seems that that end of the lake was not much used, and a determined predator could easily grab both girls at once without being seen, and drag them back into the woods, knock them unconscious, and take them to his vehicle parked near the Interstate.

Sadly, those babies are long dead.

Lord have mercy on them and all those who loved them in this life.

I don't think family is involved either. It is possible for kids who have dysfunctional parents to be the victims of a crime that has nothing at all to do with those parents.

But, I disagree that they are dead. For some reason, I think kids abducted in twos are more likely to survive. There have been more cases of survival in stranger abductions involving two kids, that I know of.

 

[Confusion]

LOL I was wondering how deep the lake the missing girls were near, not your lake!

I realized what you meant, but I was just saying it wouldn't have to be real deep. Both girls are under 5' tall, so even 4' of water could have been a big problem for both (3' probably could be for someone who is only 4'1")

That being said, it doesn't really matter. I'll be very surprised if they are found to have accidentally drowned there; not because I don't think it could happen, but because I don't think the information they have fits that scenario.

 

[haleyscomet]

I believe it was Lyric's 15 year old brother that joined in the search before LE was called.

That would leave Elizabeth's 12 year old brother at home to take care of his two younger sisters. That seems less than ideal as a regular arrangement but in an emergency? Doesn't sound awful to me.

As for why the family didn't find the bicycles first, Ollipop could explain it better but I will have a go. The place where the bicycles were found in on the other side of the lake from the parking area where the family stopped to ask people if they'd seen the two girls.

That area is in a dip in the trail that has a tall fence on either side of the trail. There are overgrown weeds and vines covering both fences, plus overhanging trees. That dip is approximately 30 yards long and the rest of the trail is open vista.

You have to be within approximately 15 yards of where the bikes were found in order to see that area.

If I've made a mistake in describing the terrain, I hope one of the locals will correct me.

You've described it very accurately. I live in Evansdale, right across the street from the open lot where people are thinking someone parked and took the girls. There is no way to see anything on that part of the trail unless youre right upon it. I doubt the family would have thought they would be down that far because it is quite a distance from where they were last seen and i t's quite a distance to walk from the lake itself...

 

[GrainneDhu]

LOL I was wondering how deep the lake the missing girls were near, not your lake!

But I'm glad you and your sister both made it out ok. It's scary how quickly it can happen, I agree. In this case, the lake seems frequently used. I just can't believe no one would've seen anything at all, including the girls even near the lake or on the dock or in the water, if theyd've drowned. Someone would've seen SOMETHING imo...even seen them larking about by the lake or on the jetty?

When there's a drought where I live, and we've just gone through a massive one, the levels of the lakes drops enormously...in fact some lakes disappear altogether. The reason I asked the current depth of this lake is perhaps near the edges (where they were likely to be) it was only up to their knees? There was no raft or anything, so they could access deeper water? Maybe some locals know?

We had massive flooding in Iowa, specifically along the Cedar River (but the worst damage was in Cedar Rapids which is south of Evansdale) in 2008. The aquifers are at near normal levels, it's just the crops that are being affects by the drought so far.

Meyer's Lake is spring fed, so while it may have been somewhat affected, the spring feeding it may very well not have been affected by the drought at this time.

As for whether anyone might have been wading in the lake, it has been reported in The Des Moines Register that the lake is infested with leeches. That isn't unusual in Iowa, particularly in waters with very little current.

Even when I was an adventurous (sounds so much nicer than "idjit") child, I would not have gone wading in leech infested waters.

 

[Jules71]

So they didn't search until AFTER the bikes were found. I find that so strange, I searched for my grandchildren until the police arrived. After LE got here I was answering questions, getting pictures, and clothing for the dogs, calling for them on LEs PA system.

It is almost like they knew it was a crime scene and didn't want to be accused. IMO

BBM. BINGO!!

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[Kamille]

Thinking out loud -

I believe they were abducted.

What I'm not sure of, is motive.

The first thing that springs to mind, unfortunately, is a sex offender.

The second thing that has occurred to me, is abduction for revenge. It could be someone aggrieved with the parents. A drug deal gone very bad.

The third possibility is abduction for profit. There was a case recently of a mother in the UK who faked her daughter's abduction, because she had seen the donations that Madeleine McCann's parents had received, and thought it was an easy way to make a million...even if it did mean having her daughter chained to some fellows criminals bed. Still, at least she was alive and well, and rescued.

You know we had a case on here from Canada regarding an 8yr old girl that went missing. The mother had a drug problem and there was a lot of talk about someone taking the child for a debt or for revenge. But realistically, these drug people don't do this kind of thing. There has never been a known case that I'm aware of. If they want to collect on a debt or stop someone from testifying, they go directly after the person in question. Not their child who doesn't even live with them and who was in another town at the time of the abduction. Why would someone in the drug world think that abducting a child to collect on a debt was a good idea? It makes no sense. If this was an abduction, it was a stranger, likely a non registered sex offender. Or possibly one that lives out of the area.

That's what it turned out to be in the other case. And FWIW, he used a female to lure the girl to his car on the premise that she was going to show her a puppy. There have been numerous child abduction attempts just in Iowa alone recently. It's very possible that this was a successful attempt.

MOO

 

[Dr. Know?]

Misti on HLN this week mentioned how they parked in the "grassy area" at Meyers Lake to be there that day. I believe she was trying to explain the other area from the SE side coming from Evans & Arbutus. It was in the past 4 days that she said that. Anyone else remember hearing her say that this week?

 

[Jules71]

You've described it very accurately. I live in Evansdale, right across the street from the open lot where people are thinking someone parked and took the girls. There is no way to see anything on that part of the trail unless youre right upon it. I doubt the family would have thought they would be down that far because it is quite a distance from where they were last seen and i t's quite a distance to walk from the lake itself...

How long would it take to walk/ride around the lake? So you live across from the garage with no house?

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[Kamille]

You've described it very accurately. I live in Evansdale, right across the street from the open lot where people are thinking someone parked and took the girls. There is no way to see anything on that part of the trail unless youre right upon it. I doubt the family would have thought they would be down that far because it is quite a distance from where they were last seen and i t's quite a distance to walk from the lake itself...

Well then this must be particularily scary for you!! I guess you weren't home that day? Do any of the neighbours stay home during the day? I suppose LE have already been to your home to ask if you saw anything or noticed any suspicious vehicles in the neighbourhood prior to this? Do you ever notice anyone going into that forested area?

 

[sherbetjello]

If they went in the other direction, there really isn't anywhere to go to get out of the area quickly.

MOO

Valid points you are making in your post.

How I am thinking is; reduction.

IF there isn't an easy grab and snatch of two girls, where are the other areas one could take/lure these two girls. Willingly, or not.

The lake obviously is one, but I don't have much faith in that.

I wonder if these homes in the area have cameras.


And, to seem to be picking on you, but off the top of my head here:

You know we had a case on here from Canada regarding an 8yr old girl that went missing. The mother had a drug problem and there was a lot of talk about someone taking the child for a debt or for revenge. But realistically, these drug people don't do this kind of thing. There has never been a known case that I'm aware of.

MOO

In Arizona, iirc, not too long ago, a child was taken at gunpoint from a home believed to have (drug) ties to the Mexican cartels. That child was found a little over a week later, hair cut, stumbling around a random border town. Alive and well, but obviously lost and scared. Things like this can't ever be ruled out, and I think this is the reason why they are digging the nails into the Morrisey-Cook family. I don't commend for it, but I see why they would.

Hope all my rambles make sense. Trying to back read and stay current.

*BIG YAWN cause of busy day*

 

[haleyscomet]

How long would it take to walk/ride around the lake? So you live across from the garage with no house?

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I live on Fran, which is directly across the street. The bike trail curves around to my back yard. Going from my back yard to the park at Meyers, I would say it would take maybe 20, 30 minutes at a gradual pace. I usually walk it with my 2 year old, so I'm basing it roughly on that.

 

[gitana1]

You know we had a case on here from Canada regarding an 8yr old girl that went missing. The mother had a drug problem and there was a lot of talk about someone taking the child for a debt or for revenge. But realistically, these drug people don't do this kind of thing. There has never been a known case that I'm aware of. If they want to collect on a debt or stop someone from testifying, they go directly after the person in question. Not their child who doesn't even live with them and who was in another town at the time of the abduction. Why would someone in the drug world think that abducting a child to collect on a debt was a good idea? It makes no sense. If this was an abduction, it was a stranger, likely a non registered sex offender.

That's what it turned out to be in the other case. And FWIW, he used a female to lure the girl to his car on the premise that she was going to show her a puppy. There have been numerous child abduction attempts just in Iowa alone recently. It's very possible that this was a successful attempt.

MOO

I agree with you except there was one case that people might bring up: Cole Puffinburger. However, just so everyone knows the result of that case:

News of Cole's abduction on Oct. 15, 2008, circulated around the country with a photo of the smiling 6-year-old boy wearing glasses. Later, federal prosecutors promised to prove that members of a Mexican drug cartel had kidnapped Cole at gunpoint and held him hostage for four days before releasing him unharmed.
But on Wednesday, prosecutors dropped all kidnapping and hostage-taking charges as part of plea negotiations with the two suspects, angering the boy's father.

Prosecutors claimed during the trial that Cole had been kidnapped as revenge after his maternal grandfather, Clemens Tinnemeyer, stole $4.5 million in drug money. But defense lawyers went on the offensive, accusing Cole's mother and grandmother of staging the kidnapping to lure Tinnemeyer out of hiding with the cash.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/all-kidnapping-charges-dropped-in-cole-puffinburger-case-116344829.html

 

[LucyOso]

You know we had a case on here from Canada regarding an 8yr old girl that went missing. The mother had a drug problem and there was a lot of talk about someone taking the child for a debt or for revenge. But realistically, these drug people don't do this kind of thing. There has never been a known case that I'm aware of. If they want to collect on a debt or stop someone from testifying, they go directly after the person in question. Not their child who doesn't even live with them and who was in another town at the time of the abduction. Why would someone in the drug world think that abducting a child to collect on a debt was a good idea? It makes no sense. If this was an abduction, it was a stranger, likely a non registered sex offender. Or possibly one that lives out of the area.

That's what it turned out to be in the other case. And FWIW, he used a female to lure the girl to his car on the premise that she was going to show her a puppy. There have been numerous child abduction attempts just in Iowa alone recently. It's very possible that this was a successful attempt.

MOO

Thank you. Great Post!

 

[GrainneDhu]

So they didn't search until AFTER the bikes were found. I find that so strange, I searched for my grandchildren until the police arrived. After LE got here I was answering questions, getting pictures, and clothing for the dogs, calling for them on LEs PA system.

It is almost like they knew it was a crime scene and didn't want to be accused. IMO

Maybe. Could be, although I don't think so at this time (I could change my mind when more information comes out).

The family was searching from the time they realised the girls were gone too long. They looked at the other parks in town and it sounds like they generally cruised around asking people if they'd seen the two girls. They did stop at Meyer's Lake to ask people if they'd seen the girls but did not walk around the entire lake until after the bikes were found.

Heather Collins made a report in person to the police station at about 2:45 pm. After that, it sounds like LE rounded the family members up (not hard to do in such a small town) and started doing the usual kinds of things at that point.