IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #7

[tlcya]

But I am feeling a bit hinky about how Misty described her last poly:

TAMMY BROUSSEAU, MISSING GIRLS` AUNT (via telephone): Jane, that`s correct. Misty has given that information that she passed the polygraph test with no problems at all. She was given a UA to make sure there was absolutely nothing in her system. She was not under the influence of anything. And the polygraph test came out showing that she passed entirely. No problems at all.




That does not sound like anything LE would have told her after the test. You passed entirely with no problems at all. Seems weird to me.

I agree. I do not think LE would say that to a person word for word. I think this is Misty's description after taking the test and not being confronted with any results that were inconclusive or appeared deceptive.

If, after the first one, she was told it was inconclusive and there was a problem ruling her out completely because of it, she may now be assuming this second one was able to do so because LEOs did not further question her regarding some portion or other of the test as may have happened with the first one.

Bottom line, I do feel MCM passed her second test. I do not feel LE told her specifically that she was cleared, that she had "passed" and that there were "no problems" with her LDT. LE just doesn't do that.

 

[Wishbone]

It is here-first it says family members, then that Misty said it-LE however did not confirm.
http://altoonaherald.desmoinesregis...arents-continue-believe-cousins-were-abducted

FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault said the reaction from the dogs Monday night indicated a "strong possibility" the girls had been at the lake, less than a mile from their grandmother's house where they were last reported seen Friday. However, Breault said because there were no confirmed sightings at the lake, authorities couldn't be certain.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/17/fbi-dogs-join-search-for-missing-iowa-girls/#ixzz21eaD9IlJ

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Let's follow the logical path that says the bikes were placed there but the girls were not there:

The girls were picked up and taken somewhere? Held in a vehicle?
Then both bikes were loaded...in a truck? An SUV?
Then both bikes had to be carried to the trail...and the little purse or pack thrown over the fence?
Then the perp drives away...and none of this is witnessed?

I just can't accept all of that because it seems to be illogical, to me, that none of this would be seen. And the perp would need to have assistance. I don't think one person could pull that scenario off.

We seem to westle with this everytime a child goes missing and some always thinks it is just too hard for one person to do yet in the end if the perp is caught we learn it was only one and they were very able to kidnap children right in broad daylight without anyone seeing or hearing a thing.

I really dont think it would be hard for one imposing adult man to scare two young children into submission.

IMO

 

[sarx]

From what I could make out from the radio chatter, the dogs were kinda all over the place. Not to say that there weren't other searches later, after they went to a secure channel, but that initial one, yeah, not so sure how much stock I'd put into it... But that is totally my opinion ONLY and I am only basing that off of limited info., so take it for what it's worth.

 

[hollye]

Who are these people at your work, hollye, who don't understand your important role here at WS? We will write them nasty letters! (hehe)

Feds...oops! And I'm a contractor, bigger oops!

 

[tlcya]

Can someone link hollye's map again for us?

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msi...0.204844,0.308647&iwloc=0004c4d406effc9c7306f

 

[Sunlight]

So some scenarios could be:

Girls last seen at 12:15 going away from the lake
Carpenters saw them between 12 and 3 (on one video one of them says 1:00 and changes or corrects the other one)
Something happens near the Carpenters...e.g., they go into someone's house
Person holds the girls and takes bikes in van down to lake and leaves the bikes there

Girls last seen on video at 12:15 going away from lake
They go past Carpenters and then turn around and for some reason head to lake or
Carpenters don't see them due to mixing up days/times
They go to lake, dink around..
TG bikes through sees bikes in path
Girls get back on bikes and head home but forget purse
Girls go back for purse
Bikes found at 3:58 upright

Girls last seen at 12:15 on video going away from lake
Girls pick up something somewhere and head to lake on an errand for somebody
They drop off something near or at trail
Girls are held or abducted
Bikes found at 3:58

Anything here to rule out any of these scenarios?

Moo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault said the reaction from the dogs Monday night indicated a "strong possibility" the girls had been at the lake, less than a mile from their grandmother's house where they were last reported seen Friday. However, Breault said because there were no confirmed sightings at the lake, authorities couldn't be certain.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/17/fbi-dogs-join-search-for-missing-iowa-girls/#ixzz21eaD9IlJ

It is very interesting how LE phrases things. You have to read between the lines.

They are not saying positively that the girls were there that day just a 'strong possibility. That is why they cant be certain. They really dont know.

 

[Shelby2]

FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault said the reaction from the dogs Monday night indicated a "strong possibility" the girls had been at the lake, less than a mile from their grandmother's house where they were last reported seen Friday. However, Breault said because there were no confirmed sightings at the lake, authorities couldn't be certain.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/17/fbi-dogs-join-search-for-missing-iowa-girls/#ixzz21eaD9IlJ

I know! So why is Misty saying differently??

 

[GrainneDhu]

No matter what has been released in the media it sure seems LE is very satisfied with the timeline they have according to the statements made by LE in the ABC article.

Something just doesnt make sense though. They were going away from Myers Lake at 12:11 pm and they were peddling fast.... so fast Elizabeth was lagging behind. So they would make good time going the other way from the lake in no time.

I am beginning to believe those girls never went to the lake and the bikes were put there by someone else who just threw them down in the bike path. I think if the girls had really been there they would have used their kick stands and wouldnt have left them blocking the path. It seems to me someone threw them out in a hurry and moved on out quickly.

IMO

This works for me only with the assumption that TG (the 12:27 pm) witness was mistaken in some way.

If TG was accurate, then I think the only way for the bicycles to get there in time for him to see them would have been if the girls rode them there themselves.

Plus, there's the problem of the FBI dogs, who both indicated that the girls had been in the woods that day (well, apparently; no official statement).

 

[Jax49]

What was the time stamp on the other one, Jax?

Thanks

12:15 and 12:11 are the two time stamps. 12:15 being the one first discovered.

 

[JaimeInLA]

From what I could make out from the radio chatter, the dogs were kinda all over the place. Not to say that there weren't other searches later, after they went to a secure channel, but that initial one, yeah, not so sure how much stock I'd put into it... But that is totally my opinion ONLY and I am only basing that off of limited info., so take it for what it's worth.

Sarx -
Would the FBI ever release false information about what the dogs had found? For example, if they KNOW someone ditched the bikes on the trail as a diversion, might they say "ah, yes, the girls were at Meyers Lake" when they know darn well they never were? Doing so might make the perp think he got away with his little ruse and start making mistakes.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I think we only have ONE video of the girls. The video is the exact same as the one released several days ago...is it not?

I have seen the "newly released" video and it looks exactly the same as the one we've already seen...it's just not zoomed in.

Did I miss something?:what:

Is Ledbetter's Big and Tall also referred to as an auction house?

If so, then it's the same video.

But if these are two different businesses, then they are two different videotapes (which is what I believe).

 

[shefner]

We seem to westle with this everytime a child goes missing and some always thinks it is just too hard for one person to do yet in the end if the perp is caught we learn it was only one and they were very able to kidnap children right in broad daylight without anyone seeing or hearing a thing.

I really dont think it would be hard for one imposing adult man to scare two young children into submission.

IMO

I have been following missing children cases for a while, so I understand what you mean. I'm sure its possible...but one person moving the bikes around while holding two children and tossing evidence seems challenging to me. But....who am I?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Usually especially if you think of foul play - like looking for a body. In this case, the trail would be revisited maybe by different dogs or cadaver dogs. I was on one case recently where I pulled my dogs off twice - one because I knew the outcome, knowing the subject went over the freeway overpass and then made a right and we had other places to search for scent nearby like a motel.

The other was at the river where the subject had a few days head start - so we needed to confirm that she did go to the river and there was no way of knowing if she was kidnapped or not at that time and the belief was she was in hiding - so we were brought in several times and one of my dogs got the river trail as did another search dog - and when my dog turned to go south on the trail I pulled him off - as we had many over good sightings farther away and there is no way I could trek for 10 miles or so at night and we all believed that she had moved on and was keeping on moving - and if at another sighting we had no scent, then we would go back and revisit the river trail and start another day to let the dogs run the track.

What these dogs found or the handler found in the 400 feet the dogs tracked I do not know - maybe it was so dense of brush and evidence of no foot traffic so the trail was abandoned - as I mentioned scent will travel on the wind and dogs will look for the trail and follow trace scent and then double back if it leads no where.

Thanks. I have another question.

You said the girls' scent may have not been on the bikes due to the perp placing them there but if they gave the dogs a scent sample of the girls would they not search out those scents instead of the perp? I still think the girls scents would have been on their bikes especially on the seat area and handle bar area. It was warm out and they were probably sweating a little because it shows them peddling fast.



JMO though

 

[Marilynilpa]

Jax, as far as I know a firefighter found the bikes... upright, leaning against the fence.

Marilynilpa, the 12:20 time is only relevant if you count on TG's description, which LE is not including in their official timeline..at least not now

LE has "nothing" between 12:15 and 3:58 that they care to reveal.

You're absolutely right that 12:20 is relevant only if we assume the bikes seen by TG were the girls' bikes. And there is no basis for that assumption, IMO.

I wonder if LE's request for info about the paddle boat is an effort to determine if anyone saw two other people putting down or picking up those bikes that TG saw. Not that LE necessarily questions TG's sighting, but I'd think they'd want to rule in/out these bikes as being Lyric and Elizabeth's bikes for the purpose of establishing a more detailed time line.

 

[Wondergirl]

Does anyone know if either of the households involved had any service people working on anything recently? eg. Electrical, Air Conditioning, Plumbing, Heating, Phone/TV

 

[oceanblueeyes]

2:15 and 2:11 are the two time stamps. 2:15 being the one first discovered.

2:15 and 2:11?

Wouldnt that be 12:15 and 12:11?

imo

 

[Wishbone]

It is very interesting how LE phrases things. You have to read between the lines.

They are not saying positively that the girls were there that day just a 'strong possibility. That is why they cant be certain. They really dont know.

They won't say ANYTHING definitive. I'm guessing they only drained the lake because it seemed the logical thing to do since the bikes were found next to it and there were no signs of a struggle or any positive scent trail. In other words, I'm afraid LE knows nothing.

 

[sarx]

It's funny but good dogs can pick up older trails and they get excited but the really fresh scent dogs will cry and whine and bark, if trained right, and jump up and down, and go really fast - fresh scent is easier for the dogs to work than older scent. So the dog's reaction is important, but not being there I can only guess at what this means but it makes sense. I know if I pull over with my hound and open the window and we are on a trail looking for a subject and the dogs gets a fresh scent - he cries and whines and I then know we are in luck.

I think this is largely a product of training though. We have a lot of dogs around here who work almost exclusively aged trails, and older trails are much easier for them than fresh ones. In a really fresh trail (more something that a police K9 would work), the scent is kinda all over the place, but the older it gets, the more it settles, but again, it's all what they've trained for. I know that on the rare occasion when we've been called out to work tandem with K9 on felony work, the dogs worked much differently and struggled a bit because of the fresh scent. So, I think it's more what's easier because of training, not because of the science of scent, if that makes any sense.