IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #7

[Marilynilpa]

Thanks. I have another question.

You said the girls' scent may have not been on the bikes due to the perp placing them there but if they gave the dogs a scent sample of the girls would they not search out those scents instead of the perp? I still think the girls scents would have been on their bikes especially on the seat area and handle bar area. It was warm out and they were probably sweating a little because it shows them peddling fast.



JMO though

There were some good posts (many, many posts ago) from two dog handlers. I don't know if they addressed your specific question, but the posts were very informative about how the search dogs work IMO. I'll look for the links.

ETA: no need to look as I see our esteemed dog handlers sarx and trackinghounds have just posted before me!

 

[JaimeInLA]

I have been following missing children cases for a while, so I understand what you mean. I'm sure its possible...but one person moving the bikes around while holding two children and tossing evidence seems challenging to me. But....who am I?

I can totally see it. Say - The girls go to visit a friend who lives on Evans. They willingly go inside. He cuffs them to a pipe in the basement. Now he has to get rid of their pesky bikes, which obviously can't be found at his house. So he walks through the woody area near his house with the bikes, where nobody will see him, and dumps them on the bike trail on the other side of the woods. Then he returns to his house, and takes the girls somewhere a little more private, in his car. This could have easily all been done by 1:00.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I don't know about anyone else, and I am seriously NOT trying to bash LE...but there have been WAY too many mentions here of "no one came and checked my house...or questioned me at all."

I am not "local"...about 30 mins south of Evansdale, so no...no one came to my house. BUT, I don't understand how every single house in Evansdale hasn't been scoured - TOP TO BOTTOM, sheds, garages, etc.

This is just crazy...Ollipop lives just a block or 2 away, has children in the home and his house hasn't been checked? And did I read that he hasn't even been questioned at his home?

How can I not question the competency of LE? BUT - within the first 24-48 hrs of these girls go missing we have all RSO within a 10 mile radius cleared. If you look at studies, RSO are not anymore likely to re-offend than any person charged with theft, OWI, etc. RSO aren't the ONLY people that should have been "cleared"...I would think every house in Evansdale should have been visited, questioned, and searched.

And sorry - but I don't think the standard warrant requirement applies in cases like this - minutes can mean the difference between life and death.

They shouldn't have to go through all the legal rigamarole of getting warrants for each house. I have faith that 99% of the people in Evansdale would gladly let LE into their home. The 1% that won't? - then get warrants, and FAST.:banghead:

BBM

The only way I (and, I believe, a lot of people, including the US Supreme Court) would be willing to support this would be if each person whose premises were searched was given immunity for any other evidence of criminal activity. So, if Joe Public had a grow operation in his basement, LE would give him immunity for any charges in connection to his grow op when they searched his house without a legal search warrant.

Or what if his brother George Public, who lives next door, had lost his temper one last time and battered his wife, Jane Public, to death? A warrantless search under the conditions I outlined that discovered her body would mean that George would literally get away with murder.

At first I thought "hey, I'm willing to go with that to save a child." But then I realised that would be strong incentive for people who want to conceal a crime to abduct a child.

It's not a perfect system but probable cause seems to me to be the safest for society at large.

 

[Jax49]

2:15 and 2:11?

Wouldnt that be 12:15 and 12:11?

imo

Thanks. I edited to correct. Sorry for the brain f*rt.

 

[Shelby2]

They won't say ANYTHING definitive. I'm guessing they only drained the lake because it seemed the logical thing to do since the bikes were found next to it and there were no signs of a struggle or any positive scent trail. In other words, I'm afraid LE knows nothing.

I think they may have been hoping to find some evidence as well.

 

[sarx]

Thanks. I have another question.

You said the girls' scent may have not been on the bikes due to the perp placing them there but if they gave the dogs a scent sample of the girls would they not search out those scents instead of the perp? I still think the girls scents would have been on their bikes especially on the seat area and handle bar area. It was warm out and they were probably sweating a little because it shows them peddling fast.



JMO though

Correct, they should ignore all other scents, otherwise it makes them pretty much useless!

 

[Wishbone]

Is Ledbetter's Big and Tall also referred to as an auction house?

If so, then it's the same video.

But if these are two different businesses, then they are two different videotapes (which is what I believe).

Cornbelt Auctions
3520 Lafayette Rd, Evansdale, IA 50707


Lederman's Big & Tall Clothing-Safety Footwear
3524 Lafayette Rd

 

[Jax49]

(Respectfully snipped for space)

BBM

The only way I (and, I believe, a lot of people, including the US Supreme Court) would be willing to support this would be if each person whose premises were searched was given immunity for any other evidence of criminal activity. So, if Joe Public had a grow operation in his basement, LE would give him immunity for any charges in connection to his grow op when they searched his house without a legal search warrant.

***********
LE probably does that frequently but unofficially. At least, they used to. Many, many years ago (college) I was in an apartment that was raided by the FBI (draft dodger). And, it embarasses me to admit this, but the whole place was full of drugs. On the kitchen counter, coffee table, etc. I remember the agents looking at the drugs and just turning their heads. Cuffed the guy and took him out. Nothing was said or ever done about the drugs.

Just to clarify, the only illegal drug I ever tried was maryjane.

 

[Marilynilpa]

They won't say ANYTHING definitive. I'm guessing they only drained the lake because it seemed the logical thing to do since the bikes were found next to it and there were no signs of a struggle or any positive scent trail. In other words, I'm afraid LE knows nothing.

I was so certain the girls were in the lake. I guess I wanted to believe they were victims of a tragic accident rather than an abduction.

I don't think it's fair to say LE knows nothing. It's hard to look at an investigation as an outsider and try to figure out why LE does what it does. But I believe there is a whole heck of a lot of info that is known by LE, but that we aren't privy to.

IMO, JMO, MOO, etc.

 

[hollye]

Is Ledbetter's Big and Tall also referred to as an auction house?

If so, then it's the same video.

But if these are two different businesses, then they are two different videotapes (which is what I believe).

They are separate businesses, but in the same building. When the 1st zoomed in video came out, there was also a still photo of the camera (on my phone, so have no idea where it is now) that showed it's location. Based on that photo, I placed a camera icon on the building on my map where the video camera is located. It is the same location as the news reporter is showing in this 2nd news report. When they play the video, it zooms in to the girls in the same depth as the original zoomed in video and is clearly the same.

I believe that they rounded the time on the video to 12:15, instead of the time stamp, for whatever reason when releasing the 1st cropped version.

And I believe they originally stated that it was from behind Lederman's because Lederman's has been the stated last location that they were seen and the framing of the video is directed to where they are riding behind Lederman's in the frame, because of the angling of the camera.

Again, JMOO!

 

[Shelby2]

For informational purposes
NCMEC Protocol

http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/NCMEC_Model_Policy_Child.pdf

 

[sarx]

If the dogs will ignore all other scent except for the subjects scent then there would be no need to be careful to avoid contamination and to handle the scent items in a special way.

But that's talking cross contamination by handling the scent article, which missing member can be done if concerned about that. I thought you made reference to the dogs following the kidnapper, which would mean he would have had to been there handling the scent article????

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM. I also read that post last night, and was very surprised by that description. Certainly does not sound like the dark wooded place I envisioned that would lend itself to a perp laying in wait in the woods, then nab two girls without being seen or heard.

From Ollipop's description almost the entire bike trail in that area is open and spacious.

It's just that one little section that has a fence on either side that is not visible and has woods at one end.

More than one local has called that particular place on the trail creepy.

 

[JaimeInLA]

For those asking last night if JW could be DM's other, unnamed accomplice in the drug case. I just noticed that JW and DM are friends on FB, which is really weird, since JW is dating DM's wife!

 

[Squeeze]

I can totally see it. Say - The girls go to visit a friend who lives on Evans. They willingly go inside. He cuffs them to a pipe in the basement. Now he has to get rid of their pesky bikes, which obviously can't be found at his house. So he walks through the woody area near his house with the bikes, where nobody will see him, and dumps them on the bike trail on the other side of the woods. Then he returns to his house, and takes the girls somewhere a little more private, in his car. This could have easily all been done by 1:00.

Exactly what I think!! If they headed to the house on Evans, maybe went by
Carpenters, got to the house on Evans, the above scenario happens. It's a short walk with two bikes to the spot on the trail. And it wouldnt be too hard to duck in the darkness if someone was coming. It's very dense behind that fence to the north by the path, between the house and the path. I don't think we are discovering anything new, I think this explains a lot of what LE is asking for, and why they aren't going house to house. They already know.

 

[voxrock2000]

So who moved the bikes from lying in the trail to up against the fence? Is it possible the bike riding witness interrupted someone leaving the bikes at the lake? They could have seen him from a distance, dropped them and hid while he came by, only to move them to the fence? I wonder if LE checked the bikes for prints.

Also, it seems unlikely someone would abduct two kids at once. Wouldnt you need more than one person to manage them during and after the abduction? Maybe they were not riding together at the time, one was grabbed then the other showed up and the perp had no choice but to grab them both as not to be identified. Then you have a perp whose plan is all of a sudden changed. They could have panicked at that point.

 

[GrainneDhu]

If a stranger saw these girls, would he even know they were both little girls, and not an older person with a smaller, younger girl? Lyric seems to be adult-sized, even if she is only 10. (Not snarking, I was a big 10-year old, just never grew again after that.) And isn't one of the bikes much bigger than the other? Seems to be the person who took them would have to know that they were both little girls.

Or the perp didn't care about the age of his victims. Which somehow seems even creepier to me.

I remember a boy in elementary school who was 5'10" at 11 years old. He had big dreams of being a basketball player. Sadly for his dreams, he never grew another inch.

 

[Thinkzerz]

For those asking last night if JW could be DM's other, unnamed accomplice in the drug case. I just noticed that JW and DM are friends on FB, which is really weird, since JW is dating DM's wife!

I dont find this weird concidering to stay connected until word of the girls JMO

 

[tlcya]

I have been following missing children cases for a while, so I understand what you mean. I'm sure its possible...but one person moving the bikes around while holding two children and tossing evidence seems challenging to me. But....who am I?

One lone perp could have done both IF he had somehow subdued the girls securely in a building or vehicle before dumping the bikes. Perp abducts girls, possibly by threatening one to gain submission/cooperation of other. Perp secures them somewhere, takes the bikes via the wooded area and dumps bikes/purse/stages scene on bike trail, returns to vehicle or building where girls are being held.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Since this is a discussion board my opinion doesn't have to be considered fair to other posters. To each his own, or there is no discussion........

Whoa, please back it up here. Obviously you are thinking I was attacking you.

As you say, this IS a discussion board and as such my statement is just as relevant as yours. No need to be snarky, IMO, as we are all trying to figure things out.

My statement was in response to yours, which is how I understand a discussion works - someone mentions something, someone counters with something else, etc.

Lyric and Elizabeth are too important to waste time being offended by someone's response to a post. JMO