IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #9

[StacyMarie83]

I don't think a parent can be held responsible for choices their ADULT children make. You can be a wonderful parent, and still your grown kids might make lousy choices. Sometimes environment, genes, or random circumstances have a bigger impact than the way a person is raised, imo.

absolutely! my grandma raised 4 alcoholics and then got me. I have drank just a few times in my life, never been arrested, etc. It's b.s. to think you know it all, when in fact you have no idea. As a philosophy major going for my PhD, nature vs. nurture is no small argument and it's never "as simple as that"

I can see why people want to delve into the parents past, IMO it has got this thread off topic many times and continues to do so. It's sad.

 

[Sunlight]

In order to consider what happened to these two girls, one has to consider what environment they are in and the circumstances. That is not blaming anyone..just considering facts, influence, opportunity and what series of events may have led to where they are now. MOO

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

I don't think the girls rode their bikes to the lake. As much as I can't fathom a stranger taking their bikes to the lake and risk being seen doing so, I just can't believe they rode to the lake. That is a long distance to ride with no confirmed witness sightings. Yes, Mr. C stated he saw them, but I've not seen that confirmed by LE.

I think of all of the houses, cars, businesses, other people I would pass in a mile and a half. People doing yard work, sitting on their front porches, washing their cars, jogging, walking,cycling...

Then, I add in the cyclist(TG), and the young man fishing. Neither of them saw the girls. We have NO confirmed sightings after the time stamp of the surveillance video. Aunt T states that someone told her he saw them, but even that story has changed somewhat. The lack of confirmed sightings is gnawing at me, enough so that I can't shake the feeling they were snatched closer to home.

 

[Thinkzerz]

I wouldn't touch or move anything. Look for fabrics, strange smells, stuff like that...open windows, anything and photo it.

Look for bike marks (incase girls have been there before) and also look for small shoe prints. Photo as much as you can!

 

[Jax49]

I think we should discuss this more. What exactly is he talking about re: 8 minutes and are we missing part of the conversation? He talked about his cctv being 8 minutes slow. So the time stamp of 12:11 would really be 12:19, right?

But what does he mean when he says “It’s pretty hard for girls to get a mile and a half away ... in eight minutes,” Pahl said. “I don’t even think I could ride a bike a mile in eight minutes.”

Is he talking about the time from 12:19 (cctv) to 12:27 (TG sighting)? That 8 minutes? Does this mean he is claiming to know about TG's sighting? But TG says he made the call at 12:27 and saw the bikes at about 12:20.

How did those bikes get to the spot on the path in one minute? Either TG is mistaken or the video is not really of our girls or the bikes found at the lake are different bikes!!

Thank you! This has been driving me nuts ever since I first heard it. Where did he get eight minutes???? He was apparently around the FBi while they were going over the video. Did he get the eight minutes from the FBI?

The 'official' time line we've heard is much, much longer. :banghead:

 

[GGE]

I believe it was 3 days ago now that a tornado came through the general NY state area where I live and knocked out our cable, tv, and phone until last night.. (easy to lose track of time without those things, at least for me!)

So Last night I came here knowing I'd have a lot of catching up to do.. but my goodness!

I had to read 22 pages of the thread I'd been in at the time, then the entire locked thread before this one (that became locked as I was making my way through it's 60 pages) and THEN 13 pages of this one!

*WHEW*

You guys are amazing! This has to be the most active forum I've ever posted on and amidst all that posting it stays civil and almost completely on topic, as well as continues to generate good information.

I have been online since the days of dial-up and choosing Prodigy, AOL, or Compuserve (1993 to be exact) and this has to be the "best" group of forumers I've had the pleasure of interacting with. And that's saying a lot, given I've webmastered several forums over the years as well as participating in many!

Just wanted to take a moment to say that and to thank the owners and operators and other volunteers of WS, as well as my fellow posters. You guys are awesome!

 

[GrainneDhu]

Justice with Jeannie Pirro was on with WC and TB on the phone. WC said the girls had NEVER gone to the lake, ever. Later TB commented that yes, girls were friends with 3 girls who live across from the lake, they had been there before.
Now my question to you, you would think this famly would have discussed this as much as we have discussed all the possibilities. So are you telling me that through all the discussions, no one ever told Grandma (WC) yes, girls have been to Meyers Lake before. I just find this so baffling. How about you> Thanks

Someone or ones may have told Grandma that but she doesn't believe them. Maybe in Grandma's eyes, her grandbabies can do no wrong.

My mom volunteered for an elementary school for over 35 years. She said that every year, there were a few parents who could not believe their little angel could do something bad at school. She said their denial fields were set so high that you could show them videotape of their little angel acting less than perfectly angelic and they would find some way to deny it.

So just because TB (and possibly others in the family) have tried to tell Grandma differently, Grandma is sticking to what she believes to be true.

Maybe Grandma thinks that such things happened when she (Grandma) wasn't there.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Smiley, I have a feeling this family doesn't communicate well. And my gut feeling about Aunt Tammy is that she might like hearing herself talk a little bit? Is she the official spokesperson for her sisters? I'm just wondering why one or both of the girls' mothers wasn't part of the interview. I can understand the grandmother as she is basically Lyric's guardian, but Elizabeth's parents, I don't get.

Heather and Drew Collins have three other children to take care of plus the fact that Heather is not well. The week before Elizabeth disappeared, she had to be hospitalised due to problems with her pacemaker.

Every time I see pictures or video of Heather, I wince. She's as thin as can be and just does not look well. She looks like she's barely able to drag herself through the day. No one gets that thin overnight, so I think a good deal of it is her ongoing heart condition.

They've been attending events and doing a limited amount of talking to the media, so my sense is that they are trying to juggle three difficult situations: Elizabeth's disappearance, 3 confused children and Heather's illness.

At this point, I don't see any reason for the Collinses to do much talking to the media. The disappearance of the girls is still getting national play and it is no doubt important for Heather to save her strength.

Aunt TB seems to be more than willing to be the family spokesperson (I have no doubt she self selected <LOL>), so I'd say, let 'er rip while Heather rests and spends her energy where it is most needed (her other children).

 

[Jax49]

Here's what has convinced me -

We have TG's conviction (he is apparently very reliable);

We have the FBI referring to "pinpointing" the time - strong language indeed, and not used lightly. Could easily have said estimating or helping with the time;

We have Mr Pahl, owner of cctv, who had the FBI in his shop for a day and a half saying the below;

Pahl is the manager of Cornbelt Auctions, 3520 Lafayette Road, where a 24-hour camera captured the footage from its position behind the building. The time and date stamp — 12:11 p.m. July 13 — fits the police timeline of the case
“It’s pretty hard for girls to get a mile and a half away ... in eight minutes,” Pahl said. “I don’t even think I could ride a bike a mile in eight minutes.”
.

So essentially we have a credible civilian/witness/prominent local figure who had a day and a half with the FBI in his premises, and now believes that they are dealing with an 8 minute time frame, plus a credible civilian/witness/prominent local figure as a witness;

There is also a marked lack of the usual sort of "LE would like to speak to anyone who saw a white/blue/pink vehicle around x time which is also a clue, in and of itself.

Good enough for me, until I hear different.

There is only one "official" time in this so far - 12.15.

:moo:


I would post the link again but I already have...read up a page

BBM

Mr. Pahl may be our 'fly on the wall'. The fact that he realized his video was off by eight minutes makes it seem he'd be referring to a 1 minute window, not eight minutes. So I'm inclined to believe the FBI or other LE talked about 'eight minutes' in his hearing. Just MOO, as always.

 

[Cheewawa007]

I'm sure Grandma's plate is overflowing with her daughter's health problem, her other daughter & son's drug problems, etc... She is the "go to" for childcare, laundry, meals, etc. I can only imagine the stress this lady was under in "normal" circumstances. When I was young I wouldn't tell my Mom where I was going because she would tell me it was too far so I would lie - then haul buns to the forbidden land... Mom never knew.

ETA: the reason for my post is because I'm going to cut Grandma some slack.

 

[katydid23]

Heather and Drew Collins have three other children to take care of plus the fact that Heather is not well. The week before Elizabeth disappeared, she had to be hospitalised due to problems with her pacemaker.

Every time I see pictures or video of Heather, I wince. She's as thin as can be and just does not look well. She looks like she's barely able to drag herself through the day. No one gets that thin overnight, so I think a good deal of it is her ongoing heart condition.

They've been attending events and doing a limited amount of talking to the media, so my sense is that they are trying to juggle three difficult situations: Elizabeth's disappearance, 3 confused children and Heather's illness.

At this point, I don't see any reason for the Collinses to do much talking to the media. The disappearance of the girls is still getting national play and it is no doubt important for Heather to save her strength.

Aunt TB seems to be more than willing to be the family spokesperson (I have no doubt she self selected <LOL>), so I'd say, let 'er rip while Heather rests and spends her energy where it is most needed (her other children).

I totally agree. the Collins family has their hands full with the other children and with Heather's heart problems. Those three kids need their mom to take care of herself right now. I cannot imagine how stressful this is for all of them, let alone someone with heart issues. Heartbreaking situation. :heartbeat:

 

[Sunlight]

BBM

Mr. Pahl may be our 'fly on the wall'. The fact that he realized his video was off by eight minutes makes it seem he'd be referring to a 1 minute window, not eight minutes. So I'm inclined to believe the FBI or other LE talked about 'eight minutes' in his hearing. Just MOO, as always.

This is still such a sticky item. The fact is that TG placed himself at the scene of the location of where the bikes were later found, shortly after the girls were seen biking on video. If the camera timestamp is off by 8 minutes, then the math with TG's math doesn't pan out. Something is off, which is why the official timeline remains publicly at 12:15 (but it could be anywhere from 0-8 minutes later if that camera is incorrect). It appears TG saw something, but what exactly, and when exactly...it is a mystery to me.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I wonder what Heather and Drew think about Aunt Tammy's revelation that Lizzie had been to the lake before with the neighbor girls? I hope they knew about it before hearing it on TV from Aunt Tammy.

 

[Ms Pragmatic]

Something else that I find odd...generally, we are bombarded with details about what missing children were LAST SEEN wearing. I know many of you pointed out that the children, if still alive, would surely not still wearing the same clothes. I agree! But it would be great to know exactly what they were wearing in case you find their clothing DISCARDED.

 

[jacy]

I totally agree. the Collins family has their hands full with the other children and with Heather's heart problems. Those three kids need their mom to take care of herself right now. I cannot imagine how stressful this is for all of them, let alone someone with heart issues. Heartbreaking situation. :heartbeat:

From day one, what I've noticed about Heather is the set of her jaw. All her strength and love and determination is revealed in how she holds that head; chin up, eyes fierce. That's what an unwavering spirit looks like. God bless them.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Lol...don't be sorry, I'm easily confused.

I think I'm seeing it. The trail goes past a wooded area, in which there is an old, barely discernible, more or less abandoned road or path. There is no easy access to the bike trail from that path, nor is there really room to turn a vehicle around on it, but it IS a great hiding spot, for ppl or a vehicle. The main issue is the fence, which is 8ft tall and blocks access between the trail and the wooded area. The fence does end, however, several yards to the east, so that walking around it would lead you back thru the woods, but you'd be fighting some serious undergrowth and slightly thick woods. It's doable. It wouldn't be easy with a bike, nor with one or two girls in tow. But if you could lure them back there somehow, once they got in the woods with you, you'd be hidden to do as you pleased.

I'm thinking that Maiden Lane was put in by a developer who planned at some point to build a few houses along there. Maybe still does.

There's a couple places on Bing maps near me that indicate streets that don't exist. In the ones I've noticed, they are all on property bought by a developer who is getting prepared to build at some point. So they zone in a road when they subdivide the property for the county assessor's office.

Do you have problems with poison ivy in the area? In Iowa City, it's a scourge. Even people living adjacent to the downtown area get it because birds spread it.

My thinking is that if you do have problems with poison ivy, then the local doctors, urgent care clinics and hospitals should be on the lookout for someone with a case (these days, it's usually treated with steroids to stop the horrible itching that increases the risk of skin infections).

If you don't have problems with poison ivy, then Maiden Lane sounds like exactly the sort of place teens would know about to do things they can't do at home. Asking the local teens for information may be useful.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Oh geez, I almost forgot. Another rumor:

My wife, in speaking with a family member today, heard that Dr Phil had called the family about appearing on his show. I have no idea as to the validity of this claim, but it would be something to look forward to.

SBM

I learned from personal experience that when stuff like this happens, the vultures start circling.

I hope that the families have someone to answer their phones and sort through their mail to intercept the offers by various people to help them in return for something (usually money but can also be mentions on national media, etc). Fending off such <cough> helpful offers can wear people down.

 

[JaimeInLA]

This is interesting about the new info with girls in the neighborhood and these two had been places with them before. I was saying the other day on here when we rode bikes on paths in the woods, we met up with other kids. They had a place over the water and it was dangerous. Our parents wouldn't have let us go there and we didn't tell.

Now I wonder where had these girls been before with them. They traveled as far as the lake with them, where else? Was anyone watching girls in the neighborhood? I imagine these neighborhood girls were spoken to and do they know anyone else that could have had contact with the girls or any homes they might have visited. SO's would be so interested in a place where alot of girls lived and riding bikes alone, away from their homes. It could be people familiar with Lyric's parents, but now that we know about these girls, it opens up more possibilities.

I am still 10 pages behind (!!! Ugh!), so this may have been said, but very early on in this investigation, Abben said that there is NO REASON for OTHER local parents to have fear for their own children. This, more than anything else, makes me think that LE know who did this.

Maybe they got fingerprints off the purse. The only way I can place the purse on the other side of the fence is for it to have been thrown there. Possibly to make LE think the girls were in the lake, to give the perp a head start (which worked). If that's the case, it hopefully has prints on it from whoever threw it. If those prints belong to DM or JW or anyone else not regularly around Lizzy, we have our perp. (It was LIZZY's purse, not Lyric's.)

 

[GrainneDhu]

I was referring to Texas Equisearch, etc...

As I understand it, TES won't come in unless LE agrees.

I'm not saying that LE is withholding permission but it wouldn't surprise me, since they know that all they have to do is put out the word and hundreds of volunteer searchers would converge to search anywhere LE wants.

People were going through cornfields that first weekend. Hot, humid, full of bugs that bite cornfields. Plus, the leaves have sharp, almost micro-serrated edges on them, so if you walk through them, you end up with little cuts all over your upper body.

Can you tell I spent too darn much time in cornfields as a teen? De-tasseling.

And yet LE hasn't called for volunteers again.

 

[Sunlight]

I am still 10 pages behind (!!! Ugh!), so this may have been said, but very early on in this investigation, Abben said that there is NO REASON for OTHER local parents to have fear for their own children. This, more than anything else, makes me think that LE know who did this.

Maybe they got fingerprints off the purse. The only way I can place the purse on the other side of the fence is for it to have been thrown there. Possibly to make LE think the girls were in the lake, to give the perp a head start (which worked). If that's the case, it hopefully has prints on it from whoever threw it. If those prints belong to DM or JW or anyone else not regularly around Lizzy, we have our perp. (It was LIZZY's purse, not Lyric's.)

"DM or JW" or possibly JC (considering od's) MOO