IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #1

[Roy Harrold]

I guess I just can't always fathom which hill your standing on as you view this case.

I'm standing on a hill, from which it appears to me that a convicted child molestor named Paul Bonacci has been manipulating and continues to manipulate many sincere, caring, well-meaning people - as I'm sure you & Heart of Texas both are, and in which I include John DeCamp and Noreen Gosch.

 

[Roy Harrold]

If you believe everything you just typed, Roy, then I've had my last discussion with you. I in no way intend that as an insult... just that I have better things to do with my time than discuss a topic with someone who sees things so differently. It's like trying to describe the color blue to someone who is color blind... they're just never going to be able to see it.

Well, I think that's a shame, but it won't stop me from considering you a kind of cyber-friend and an obviously concerned citizen. And I mean no offensive to you, but it seems odd - several people have said that "in this case, no possibilities should be overlooked or dismissed", but apparently that doesn't extend to considering the possibility of Bonacci being deliberately deceptive.

 

[Roy Harrold]

William - you said "I believe the government is nothing but a minor bit player in this...",
but if everything Bonacci has said is true - in fact, if even half of what he has said is true - then "the government" must be a major player, because that is what Bonacci has alleged (directly and indirectly).

 

[Roy Harrold]

That question is so rhetorical, that it almost doesn't warrant answers. Why does any story come to fruition? Why are politicians sometimes found to be corrupt and prosecuted?

A) because there exists hard physical evidence and documentation of criminal activity, supported by credible witnesses and
B) because it isn't true that all or even most of our government, law enforcement and media is corrupted and controlled by conspiracies. People who are involved in criminal conspiracies in our society are not able to cover-up and get away with them forever - because the vast majority of law enforcement personnel, journalists and even politicians are sincere people who actually care about families and children.

That doesn't mean corruption never happens - it does, and cops, reporters and elected reps sometimes do "go bad" - but we're not living in the USSR, or Columbia, or Iran under the Shah.

 

[inquiringmindz]

This was a very interesting read if you haven't already.

Snip - -

This was the biggest scandal in the history of the U.S.A history. The story received some newspaper coverage but there was a TV News Media blackout on the subject. For this reason, most Americans have never heard of it.

http://www.thelawparty.org/FranklinCoverup/franklin.htm

Washington Times Article 6/29/89

http://www.thelawparty.org/FranklinCoverup/WashingtonTimes.htm

 

[godzorphan]

Caution: Some graphic discussion

i have worked with victims of pedophilia for a number of years. i learned that the modus operandi of child molesters is "deny everything, blame the victim." please keep that in mind when considering posts that seek to make paul bonacci out to be an evil child molester that manipulates people. And, it would be beneficial for people to actually read the franklin cover up and decide for themselves after they have all the information. bonacci was convicted for touching a 10 or 11 year old boy over their clothes. this is a crime, this is wrong. but it does not even compare to the crimes of sodomizing a child like paul before he even reached that age, then involving him in a world that is so evil that no child could survive mentally intact. did he take part in johnny gosch's kidnapping? yes. should he go to jail for that? that's for courts to decide if it should ever come to that. but he came forward in an attempt to make this all right. that would also be taken into account.

i can also tell you, having had an opportunity to speak with mr de camp as well as one of his first investigators and having a chance to view some of the files of paul's original outcries, there is nothing contradictory in them, nothing that was false concerning the information we had on sex trade rings states away from other victims. as a former pi it was my responsibility to be skeptical of everything i learned, but also to not discount anything. there was nothing in mr bonacci - nothing - that would cause me to doubt his testimony.

so do we listen to a "child molester"? the psychological ins and outs of the devastating effects of being violated as a child are best addressed by others of better credentials. but to give a little perspective: in 1996, i was brought in as a victim advocate on a case involving a very well respected man who had started the big brothers program, was a scout master etc. we had a small hand in bringing him to justice. the oldest victim was eighteen. he was going to be the star witness against this monster. but, he was scared to death. it seems that this man began molesting him when he was ten, and within just a few years, when he was a young adolescent, the man was using him to get other kids for him to molest.

people can pontificate about this boy, call him a child molester, etc. that's fine. but really, unless you were so violated, or have a genuine understanding of victimology, or both, you cannot really understand the power of pedophiles over their victims or the ability they have to brainwash, scare and threaten. In our case, the authorities had no problem granting this boy immunity from prosecution, not just as a 'deal' but because they understood what drove him to it.

if what paul bonacci says is true - and again, i have heard and read nothing to the contrary - then he was forced to violate a ten year old child and that child was shot to death during that sex act that was being filmed. try to imagine what that would do. try to imagine the fear that the next time, YOU would be the one shot. try to imagine him even thinking he had a will of his own, or a choice. how much do we want to prosecute a person who has lived like this since before he even reached puberty? i would be reluctant to pull the trigger on him. you may recall the steven stayner kidnapping in california - taken as a boy, ran away 7 years later i believe - he too testified that he knew his perpetrator was molesting his friends, but still brought them up to their house - because he was desperate for friends. no one dreamed of prosecuting him for being an accessory to molestation.

before we make paul the enemy here, get the whole picture. i do believe a lot of that is found in decamp's book. for the record, i do not believe in a number of conspiracies that are being espoused around all of this. but again, a conspiracy is simply more than one person planning a commission of a crime. is there that in all of this? yes, and much more. we had a great deal of information on child *advertiser censored*, child trading and how they work, and some upper level involvement long before paul came forward. all his info did was make us go, "we're on the right track."

i don't want to do a 'deny everything, blame the victim" with paul. i can neither defend nor justify his actions, though i understand them based on his horrific past. i don't know much about all the other cast of characters mentioned. but i personally believe johnny is still out there. and i am willing to look at everything and anything to help find him. there is a definite 'fog of war' around all of this which makes it very hard to figure out who's who in the zoo. but it is pretty clear that someone knows the truth, and some others are determined to make sure that truth is never known.

 

[christine2448]

Hiya Christine. I too am new here. I found two different timelines on the events. One is at www.johnnygosch.com
and the other is located on AMW website at http://amw.com/missing_children/case.cfm?id=26170

This whole case is very confusing, and I think there is a little truth in all the thoeries that have ever been presented.

www.johnnygosch.com was updated today.

From one newbie to another - WELCOME!

Thanks loganone, and Welcome to WS...amazing group of people here! Glad to see you join in and participate in the forum!

I will check out the links when I have time...right now, there is a missing 2 yr old boy out there I've been concentrating on: http://websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=117

 

[FourthBase]

B) because it isn't true that all or even most of our government, law enforcement and media is corrupted and controlled by conspiracies. People who are involved in criminal conspiracies in our society are not able to cover-up and get away with them forever - because the vast majority of law enforcement personnel, journalists and even politicians are sincere people who actually care about families and children.

Strawman alert.

All it would take is a tipping point of corruption for a conspiracy to take hold and that tipping point might be achieved by a relatively small but powerful and well-placed network of individuals. Not all who participate in the cover-up would be directly involved in the perpetration, but instead might be pressured through blackmail, intimidation, and plain old inertia.

So please discontinue with the "all or most" fallacy.
No one is saying that except you.

 

[godzorphan]

And, the blackmail aspect can't be underestimated. all they have to do is compromise one well-placed official with pictures to hold over them, and that person will do EXACTLY what they want him to do, for life.

 

[Pcarpent]

...a convicted child molestor ... has been manipulating and continues to manipulate many sincere, caring, well-meaning people.

We all got a textbook lesson last month from John Mark Karr on how even a pathetic wannabe liar can both: 1) effortlessly manipulate the media on these high-profile cases, and 2) get legions of instant defenders who desperately want to believe their stories, no matter how contradictory they are.

 

[laini]

Hiya, ya'll, been lurkin in this case...was wondering....could someone who is familiar do a quick timeline and a who's who in the case for us newbies...I'm so confused right now. Sometimes it's nice on a long thread to every now and then post up timeline to this point, and who all is involved...anyone?

Excellent idea Christine! Thanks for suggesting it. Last week I was following the Gibson part of the story, and today I can't remember any of it. LOL! Very confusing

 

[godzorphan]

We all got a textbook lesson last month from John Mark Karr on how even a pathetic wannabe liar can both: 1) effortlessly manipulate the media on these high-profile cases, and 2) get legions of instant defenders who desperately want to believe their stories, no matter how contradictory they are.

Paul Bonacci was saying all of this before the media even was part of the picture. Sorry, that argument doesn't fly.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Paul Bonacci confesses to (in statements he made to DeCamp and others) committing brutal, vicious rapes of younger boys - beating the victims and committing heinous repugnant acts on them. If he's not lying, this is no mere "fondler" - this is a maniac!

Of course, he claims to have been 'forced' to commit these acts at gunpoint, etc, was a mindless robot at the time (but still remembers everything vividly), and otherwise attempts to minimize his own responsibility in these crimes. Any sex-crime detective will tell you this is a consistent trait of sex offenders - they always downplay and minimize their own responsibility in the crimes they commit.

Several serial child-rapists and murderers have had young accomplices who were active participants in their crimes. When caught, they usually claim they weren't really willing participants and try to downplay their responsibility. Sometimes, the younger accomplice gets in over their head and betrays the older offender or even kills them.

Dean Corll had Elmer Henley
William Bonin has several accomplices, including James Munro.

I'm very suspicious, that Paul Bonacci may have been much more of a willing participant in the crimes he describes than he wishes to admit. I'm suspicious that some very serious crimes may be going unsolved because Bonacci has created a smoke-and mirrors screen around them that so far has produced only goose-chases, no actual convictions, by talking about real crimes but lying about who was really involved and where and when they really took place.

This is only speculation. I can't prove this. Still, I find these possibilities very disturbing.

At this point, there is only one convicted sex offender who has confessed to participating in kidnapping & abusing Johnny Gosch. If someone else has the full legal name of some other person with a criminal record for sex crimes, that they can prove was an active participant in kidnapping Johnny Gosch, please post that information.

 

[godzorphan]

[Roy Harrold]Paul Bonacci confesses to (in statements he made to DeCamp and others) committing brutal, vicious rapes of younger boys - beating the victims and committing heinous repugnant acts on them. If he's not lying, this is no mere "fondler" - this is a maniac!

No, this is a dissociative identity disorder victim who can compartmentalize what they do in order to survive it.

Any sex-crime detective will tell you this is a consistent trait of sex offenders - they always downplay and minimize their own responsibility in the crimes they commit.

as they will tell you it is also consistent with stockholm syndrome.


I'm very suspicious, that Paul Bonacci may have been much more of a willing participant in the crimes he describes than he wishes to admit.

how much of a willing participant is a child who is sodomized before he's 12?

I'm suspicious that some very serious crimes may be going unsolved because Bonacci has created a smoke-and mirrors screen around them that so far has produced only goose-chases, no actual convictions, by talking about real crimes but lying about who was really involved and where and when they really took place.

now, why in the world would he do that. Why would he tell a p.i all of this knowing he would be ridiculed, disbelieved, possibly sent to jail? again, as someone who actually SAW the files, and TALKED with the investigator, there is nothing he has said that has been inconsistent or "smoke and mirrors." the lack of convictions was not his fault.

At this point, there is only one convicted sex offender who has confessed to participating in kidnapping & abusing Johnny Gosch. If someone else has the full legal name of some other person with a criminal record for sex crimes, that they can prove was an active participant in kidnapping Johnny Gosch, please post that information.

well, why would anyone do that? that makes no sense.

 

[Roy Harrold]

"now, why in the world would he do that?"

Perhaps because he has a need (or perverse desire) to confess his crimes but doesn't want to have to pay the price for them. And as he has successfuly avoided being charged with kidnapping & assaulting Gosch, despite having confessed to this, I don't think he'd have any fear of going to prison as long as he never provides accurate enough information to support charging his real accomplices.

There may be some people who would say Karla Homolka was "under the control" of Bernardo and shouldn't have been convicted of her crimes, or that the Manson murder-gang members were under Manson's control and shouldn't have to be in prison for the killings they committed, or that Alex King & his brother were under the control of Chavez and should get away with their part in their father's murder. I disagree.
If you are old enough to understand they you are participating in a crime, (especially a crime against a child), then off to prison you go - in my opinion. Some people might say I have a "redneck" attitude about this. Great! I'm a redneck when it comes to crimes against persons, then. The more people who are provably guilty of crimes against persons that go to prison, the happier I'll be! Lock 'em all away.

If Bonacci wants to demonstrate his repentance by offering to plead guilty to what he has confessed doing, and he's willing to provide the real names of his accomplices, and the real dates and places of the crimes they committed (resulting in convictions), I'd have no objection to his receiving a token sentence.

And yes, if there are serious leads to other people provably connected to the crimes - cops, politicians, journalists, judges or whomever - then give that info to the FBI and let's get them all in prison.

 

[Mr. E]

I've always wondered something about Paul Bonacci. He says that he was a kidnapped child, too, molested and forced later on to help kidnap other boys.

Well, who is he, then? Doesn't he have some family out there somewhere looking for him?

 

[HeartofTexas]

This is part of an interview with Noreen Gosch re the time Johnny came to visit her in 1997.

AFP: You received a remarkable visit in your home.
​

NG: There was a knock at my door at about 2:30 a.m. I went to the door and I could see through the peephole that there was a young man outside. I said, "Who's there?" He said, "It's me, mom. It's Johnny." I could see that there was someone with him, but I let them in. I don't know who the other young man was. I asked, but he declined to tell me.
​

AFP: Johnny would have been about 24 years old at this point. What did he tell you?
​

NG: It was very emotional. I asked if I could call someone to come and help us, thinking that he was home to stay. But Johnny was so terrified. He said, "You don't understand. You can't call anyone. No one can know that I've been here. If you do, my life is in danger and yours might be, too. They will kill me for what I know."
​

Instead of pushing this issue, I said to myself, "No, I'm going to let him talk and tell me what's happened." So during our hour-and-a-half time that we had together. I learned a lot. I asked him names of people. I asked him how they did their organization. What type of things did they do? What methods did they use to traffic in children?
​

He was here in 1997, but I kept silent for two years and didn't tell anyone about his visit until 1999 when I was on the witness stand testifying for Paul Bonacci in his civil case. But what I had done in the meantime was to make an appointment with the county attorney. I went in and told him that I had information from an informant. I gave the county attorney the names of the people involved and how the organization worked and asked him to begin an investigation. I did not tell him that the informant was my son.
​

AFP: Did the county attorney investigate?
​

NG: No, he said that he would not. The only reason he gave was that I would have to somehow convince my informant to turn himself in and be a part of the witness protection program and that they "might" be able to give my informant (Johnny) immunity for any crimes he may have committed during his captivity.
​

I looked at the county attorney and said, "They 'might' be able to give him immunity? That doesn't work for me." He responded, "Well, you're going to have to turn over the boy." I said, "I don't have the boy." I didn't tell him that it was Johnny, but I did tell him that "the informant" had told me that Johnny was still alive.
​

I said to the county attorney: "I came here to share information with you as I always have. This way I can never be charged with withholding information. If you choose not to investigate, that's up to you. I will continue my investigation as I always have."
​

http://educate-yourself.org/tg/goschcradiointerview19aug03.shtml

 

[godzorphan]

"now, why in the world would he do that?"

Perhaps because he has a need (or perverse desire) to confess his crimes but doesn't want to have to pay the price for them. And as he has successfuly avoided being charged with kidnapping & assaulting Gosch, despite having confessed to this, I don't think he'd have any fear of going to prison as long as he never provides accurate enough information to support charging his real accomplices.

as is carefully outlined in the franklin cover up, he and alicia owens provided enough information to put a number of people in jail. and, he was willing to pay whatever price he had to if these people were exposed, as was alicia. instead, the investigators were blocked at every turn. and, one investigator ended up dead, blown up in midair on the way back from gathering the evidence he said they were looking for to put ALL these perps away.

If Bonacci wants to demonstrate his repentance by offering to plead guilty to what he has confessed doing, and he's willing to provide the real names of his accomplices, and the real dates and places of the crimes they committed (resulting in convictions), I'd have no objection to his receiving a token sentence.

you have no proof he did NOT provide accurate real information.

And yes, if there are serious leads to other people provably connected to the crimes - cops, politicians, journalists, judges or whomever - then give that info to the FBI and let's get them all in prison.

anyone with a fair amount of experience with the fbi, especially at the time of these crimes, understands that only NOW are these issues becoming any kind of priority. and that depends. i just heard back on vital information i gave them a year ago, and now it's too late to do anything about it.

if they're that slow now, can you imagine it back then?

 

[godzorphan]

What if everything Bonacci said is true?

What if the things described by Bonacci are not only true but still going on today?

they are. different people, same crimes.

What if all of it is true and yet nobody wants to believe it and nobody wants to rock the boat.

these things are so horrible that they are simply easier NOT to believe so people can stay in their world of denial.

What if everything in the Franklin Cover-Up is true and yet still our government has done nothing about it?

further, what if when people try, they are fired, killed, removed from cases, etc.? all that has taken place in my field of endeavor in these matters.

What if all of it is true and yet the American press never reported on it or never challenged the truth?

unfortunately, the media is more about what sells than what is true. even more unfortunate, in court, truth does not matter either: it is about, in the words of one prosecutor, "how good you can make your client look." I am convinced that the perpetrators of the gosch/ownes/bonacci/boner crimes had little fear of exposure. why? they were just a bunch of skanky, illiterate *advertiser censored* and street punks. they couldn't have been cleaned up enough for a jury who would already have a preconcieved notion about hookers, hustlers and dirty criminal juveniles.

What if the people involved in this scandal were so powerful that they could control reports by the media?

some of them were. and are.

What if sex, power and corruption were documented all the way back to the days of the Roman Empire and yet people today refused to believe it could happen?

i believe slave trading and sex trafficking is one of the oldest criminal enterprises in world history. (bible readers can go back to the slavery of israeli children in babylon for example.) it is ludicrous to think that because we are a modern world that organized sex trafficking is not still very much alive and, as one estimate says, a 15 billion dollar a year industry. what can you NOT cover up or make disappear with that kind of money?

if all these things are true, then the children who are slave to these groups have little chance of survival. and that is precisely why those of us who do know, have to keep these issues alive.

 

[HeartofTexas]

Amen to that, Godsorphan. OTOH, give it about 20 minutes and someone will be along to tell us it's not happening, never has happened and never will happen. These same people, under the same hats, show up everywhere there is a discussion about this. Makes my hinky meter start pounding, too. LOL!