IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

[Roy Harrold]

Great info Insguru. If that is indeed "our guy", we can search out other unsolveds in those cities/areas for possible connections. Thanks!

 

[dorca the just]

Yes, thanks, Insguru, Roy and Shadow. You all have given me a lot to mull over. BTW, I did come across an Oct. 16, 1984 news article by looking at the 1984 archives on google.com. As per, I wasn’t able to pull the complete article, but it did mention a person interesting to me who worked at the DM Register. Something to do with messing around with boys, I believe. I’m wondering how much work the PD did on him since they botched the Gosch case so handi ly, and everyone was in a panic once EM had disappeared. Just a thought.

 

[shadowraiths]

I guess part of my problem with some of these theories is that I work in a state psychiatric hospital.
I hear dozens of conpiracy theories.Ive read as many manifestos about wide ranging plots reaching to the highest levels.
Most of them from people who are civily commited as delusional paranoid schizophrenics.
Alot of the things ive read from people contributing to this topic sound as though they could have been written by the same patients I deal with every day.

That is all well and fine however these theories did not just originate from the tin foil hat crowd. Nor did they simply pop up out of the blue. For example, then Police Chief Orval Cooney, originally investigated "cult" angle back in September of 1982. Also, there is the case of Todd Bequette. He was kidnapped in 1973, and Dennis Whelan found him after spending 18 months tracking him all over the place.

Bequette has been in the news again. This time alleging his kidnapper also murdered another child. (click here)

 

[kline]

Tinfoil hat crowd.LOL,thats awesome.
Thanks for the article,.informative read.

 

[Roy Harrold]

That is all well and fine however these theories did not just originate from the tin foil hat crowd. Nor did they simply pop up out of the blue. For example, then Police Chief Orval Cooney, originally investigated "cult" angle back in September of 1982. Also, there is the case of Todd Bequette. He was kidnapped in 1973, and Dennis Whelan found him after spending 18 months tracking him all over the place.

​

Bequette has been in the news again. This time alleging his kidnapper also murdered another child. (click here)

Thanks for this info.

There isn't anything in this info about Bequette, indicating that his kidnapper had accomplices, exploited Bequette for *advertiser censored*, "sold" him to other pedophiles or was involved in a cult. Why, then, are his mother and PI Whelan talking about "national *advertiser censored* groups" in the article you have there (18c7408e.jpg) as though they had experiential expertise on the subject, enough to make judgements about such group's involvement in the Gosch case?

Child *advertiser censored* definitely has been produced, in the US, for at least 50 years - by organized crime in the 1970s, by "independent" professional pornographers, by small groups of pedophiles working together and by individual victimizers of children (often a relative, sad to say), but I don't see the Bequette case as an example of any of those things?

Do you have links to an article for the Orval Cooney investigation? I'd be very interested in seeing it.

 

[Eire]

That is all well and fine however these theories did not just originate from the tin foil hat crowd. Nor did they simply pop up out of the blue. For example, then Police Chief Orval Cooney, originally investigated "cult" angle back in September of 1982. Also, there is the case of Todd Bequette. He was kidnapped in 1973, and Dennis Whelan found him after spending 18 months tracking him all over the place.

​

Bequette has been in the news again. This time alleging his kidnapper also murdered another child. (click here)

You are correct in that the initial theories about widespread cults doing awful things did not originate with the tin foil hat brigade. That's a verifiable matter of fact. However, those theories have never produced any credible evidence which proves these groups exist. You, I and Roy all have knowledge of the SRA fiasco of the 1980's, so we're all on the same ground as to that. What I say next, I say with the utmost respect, investigating that angle does not mean those groups existed. There has been no real evidence thus far that they do. There have been perverts who prey on innocent children, that is also a matter of fact. Those perverts made kiddie *advertiser censored*, those perverts sold kiddie *advertiser censored* and in some cases those perverts knew each other. That's the extent of it. No massive Satan worshiping cult kidnapping children for sexual purposes, no pre-schools where children were abused by the entire staff on a routine basis. In fact, and this can be verified as well, Satanists do not kill animals or children as part of their practices.

Again, I make my comments with all due respect to you. As I said previously, I've read your writings and I've found them to be very well done. I'm not picking on you personally.

 

[shefner]

So you're saying that Satanists do not kill animals as part of their rituals? Ask your local animal shelter or pet store....

 

[shefner]

Let me say one other thing before everyone starts providing links to prove that satanists do not perform animal or human sacrifices....

Just like any other type of religion, there are many different divisions and factions. While some modern satanists claim there is no benefit from animal sacrifices, there are some satanists that are from stricter, older forms who believe in the animal sacrifices......and then there are the moderate satanists who say its up to the individual.
I'm sure anyone can find a website (or several) to back up his POV...

I once was on a waiting list to receive a solid black kitten for my children. We had a couple cats of different colors and the kids had read a book about a little black kitten and wanted one. A black kitten did become available, unfortunately around halloween. The pet store would not let me purchase the kitten until after the holiday, and only after I came in and gave my ID and personal information (address, phone, etc) so they could check up on me. I thought this was crazy....I didn't mind doing it but I couldn't understand why it was necessary. The owner finally told me about their problem in previous years, with certain cults and animal sacrifices. I heard details I didn't care to hear....

After that, I do believe animal sacrifices do happen...maybe not always performed by satanists, however.

 

[Roy Harrold]

But Eire - what about all those based-on-a-true-story documentaries like "Rosemary's Baby", "The Exorcist" and "The Omen"?

Here's a local story, where four teen boys were burglarizing someone's home and "sacrificed" that family's cat in a microwave:
http://tinyurl.com/3raglj
[WARNING! link leads to story of horrible cruelty to animals]

Unfortunately, the law does not allow for these four little @#$! to have their testicles crushed in a vise. None of them have claimed to be Satanists, by the way...

 

[thefragile7393]

So you're saying that Satanists do not kill animals as part of their rituals? Ask your local animal shelter or pet store....

Not like you would think. Animal cruelty persons certainly do this, and anyone can kill an animal and claim they are Satanists, however by and far as a group Satanists do not kill. Yes there are certain factions, etc. that might believe in sacrifice, however it's not near the Satanic-panic proportions.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Where would we be without Snopes.com, eh?
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/mayhem/blackcat.asp

Many Animal Shelter staff do appear to adhere to belief in urban legends about animal sacrifice around Halloween, however:

"Humane Society officials...employed a clipping service to survey news accounts of feline carnage surrounding Halloween 1996 - and found nothing".

 

[Eire]

But Eire - what about all those based-on-a-true-story documentaries like "Rosemary's Baby", "The Exorcist" and "The Omen"?

Here's a local story, where four teen boys were burglarizing someone's home and "sacrificed" that family's cat in a microwave:
http://tinyurl.com/3raglj
[WARNING! link leads to story of horrible cruelty to animals]

Unfortunately, the law does not allow for these four little @#$! to have their testicles crushed in a vise. None of them have claimed to be Satanists, by the way...

Awww, Roy, you just pushed one of my buttons, buddy. :crazy: Can you throw "Go Ask Alice" in to that mix just so my head will explode?

Thanks to both you and thefragile for addressing the whole Satanists killing animals thing. I was just going to Snopes it when I saw you post. There's no need for me to add any more to it than that. Since that's never stopped me before, this is one of those cases where urban myth is passed off as truth when it isn't.

And yes, it is unfortunate that those little punks can't have a set of vice grips applied to their sensitive areas. Sick little freaks that they are. :furious:

 

[Roy Harrold]

This is reminding me of my favorite Urban Legend from the Satanic Panic days. Supposed "experts" like Ted Gunderson were claiming, throughout the 1980s, that thousands of children were sacrificed in Satanic rituals at various points throughout the calendar year, necessitating fleets of portable crematoria chugging silently through the countryside consuming all the evidence of thousands of specially bred-for-sacrifice infants.

And then we tracked down the one company in the world that actually made portable crematoriums and discovered - that the smallest model required four flatbed trucks just to move it and couldn't be transported at speeds of over 30 mph without the special tiling cracking from the vibrations.

 

[Eire]

Ah yes, on holidays that only existed in the very fertile imaginations of a few.

Roy, I'm sure you've seen this, but if you haven't, here's a great site: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_none.htm

I love religious tolerance.

Edit: Here's another one. http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1198125007

I'm preparing to write a paper (again) on the topic, so I'm doing research. It's late and the phrase portable crematoria is making me giggle, that's a sure sign it's past my bed time.

 

[kline]

I guess tolerance in this area is something ill have to work on.
I mean take a look the the content of this site.
Missing,murdered,unidentified,abuse,torture.
The true face of evil is documented in a thousand different instances here.
I guess seeing the fuzzy side of folks who claim to worship evil or satan regardless of whatever abstract or benign form that worship is supposed to take...is a little difficult for me. But,whatever.

 

[Roy Harrold]

But Kline...the perpetrators of evil very rarely claim to be "worshippers of evil" - if they claim to worship anything at all - they almost inevitably claim to be "worshippers of good". Such as all the pedophilic priests and ministers of various denominations that have been revealed over the last 20-25 years. It is, surely, a delusional belief that those persons were really "secret satanists" or "worshippers of evil" in disguise, wouldn't you say?

Would it surprise you if child/teen victims of a pedophilic priest ended up declaring themselves to be "satanists"? While working with police agencies here during the late 1980s I got to meet some teen "satanists" that they were monitoring. They were indeed victims of abusive Holy Phoneys, and their self-professed satanism was little more than an expression of: "If my abusers were "good" "Christians" then I guess I'll be an "evil" "satanist". Their vandalism and other petty criminal involvement was clearly intended to be a big F-U! to symbols of authority in their community, which they also perceived to be Holy Phoneys.

 

[Roy Harrold]

I should also add, that the one "religious" Satanist I've met in my lifetime was himself a deeply bigoted person. He hated the Christian Church with a real passion, but whatever was behind that was so deep-seated that I could never get him to discuss it. He openly and loudly demonized all Christians as child-abusing hypocrites, so it wasn't hard to guess what the root of his problem with Christianity was but he wouldn't talk about it.

I confronted him about the hypocrisy of his own predjudice toward all Christians, whenever he talked about being a persecuted minority as a Satanist, but he was willfully blind to that. His Satanism seemed quite shallow to me - he'd read LeVay's "Bible" and professed to derive a kind of religion from it but seemed more a worshipper of unbridled personal freedom than anything else. He never professed to "serve Satan" or to be "committed to evil" or anything of that nature. In fact, he found it quite humorous to occiasonally spout: "*advertiser censored** Satan! That's the beauty of being a Satanist, you can't say that about Jesus if you're a Christian".

He would say things like: "Satan is freedom" and "Satan is truth". Freedom and truth aren't things that I associate with evil, so I'd have a hard time believing that he intended to "worship evil" through his professed religion.

He was a rational person, outside of the subject of religion, a young guitar player who also had a good job in the oil industry. He's still around - I see him on the street from time to time. He's never been convicted of a crime, and has been in a stable common-law relationship with an equally eccentric woman for decades. A relatively "normal" person other than his professed religious beliefs.

I would say, in my opinion, a person who truly believed that they "worshipped evil" would be a good candidate for extended psychiatric observation.

 

[shefner]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but isn't one of the foundational beliefs of satanism the belief in individual freedom to do anything a person may choose?

 

[Eire]

It is, but most people tend to leave out the other part of that belief, personal responsibility for the consequences of one's actions. Two of the other fundamental beliefs are "Do not harm little children" and "Do not harm animals." As it was put to me some time ago, if a person feels like punching Joe Blow in the nose, that's OK, but whatever Joe Blow or the authorities do in response is that person's responsibility. They're big on personal responsibility.

Roy, I agree with you that any person who believes they worship evil or that they are pure evil is a prime candidate for extended psychatric care. The few people I've know who claimed such certainly fit that mold.

The religiously Satanic I have know have been just like you and I. My dearest friend was a religious Satanist. He was a great person who loved and was loved by many. He was brutally honest when the situation called for it, but he was caring and compassionate and wonderful. His passing left a huge hole in the lives of those who were fortunate enough to know him. There isn't a day when I don't think about my good friend, in fact, it's hard to type this because the sadness at his loss is still raw almost two years later. I never would have known this amazing soul had I not opened my mind to those who are different from me. I'm glad I did.

 

[Capt.]

Satanist or Setians that I have known do not bring attention to themselves and when they do, they are punished by the group, especially when they reveal group secrets.
They do kill animals in some rituals for the purpose of inflicting trauma into some of their members, such as young alters that get attached to a cat, dog, or rabbit. The killings are done for the affect on the members to keep them in line or to encourage behavior.
The first Setian I met was at his first day at work. He wasn't very talkative. I asked him how he got a specific (scar)mark which I know now is something that happens to Setians. He never answered. That was his first and last day at work.