IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

[Roy Harrold]

"And same said individual is alleged to have told Ms. Gosch that Eugene Martin was targeted to be abducted."

Who said this? Reference, please?
Noreen alleges that she was warned that a kidnapping would occur in a certain time frame - I don't recall her claiming that anyone told her Eugene Martin was targetted to be abducted.

I could be wrong, but please post verification.

 

[shadowraiths]

What do we know, Roy? As I previously stated, we know that two convicted sex offenders have claimed Johnny was the victim of a national child sex ring of which several high level officials are alleged to have also been involved. We have another sex offender who was not convicted. Who, btw, would have access to the boy's paper route schedules. We know that GPB's MO involves, at the very least, one accomplice. His apprehension and conviction in 2005, along with my friend's account, seems to bear this out. And then, there's the bit about another individual who claims GPB and Evan's history goes back to the 1980s.

I can also confirm Mr. Evans is the teacher from Hayfield. It is 79/80 when "Pappy" (George Paul Bishop) and Mr. Evans meet. Bishop was in the Coast Guard at the time, stationed down the street from Hayfield High School.

Bishop was arrested between Sept 84 & Sept 85 in Alexandra for having sex with a 12 year old boy. The crime took place at Oak Wood apartments (Duke Street & Van Dorn). He fled to California (San Francisco or San Diego). He was hiding behind a marriage, saying he and his wife (Teresa) could not have children, and being a “big brother” to children of single mothers. He fled California after charges where filed there. Returned to VA, disappeared again, and apparently returned again.

Full article: click here

If the aforementioned individual's claim is true (and I'm still trying to track that bit down), then imho, it is quite possible that Bonacci's account is, in part, true. That he, along with Soda, Sykora & GPB, abducted Johnny.

That's four people, Roy. Of which, at least one, had been making child *advertiser censored* for twenty some odd years. And at least one, had access to the boys' schedules. We also know from old news articles that witnesses reported seeing two men approach the news boys while they were folding papers, that Johnny appeared uncomfortable, and that after he moved on down the street the vehicle carrying the men followed him.

That seems quite calculated to me. And, by today's definition, if these men were working together (regardless of whether or not they were actually involved in Johnny's abduction), would be considered a child sex ring. In fact, I posted about a sex ring (though, that one was an international ring) just the other day (click here).

In other words, you do not need hundreds of paedophiles in collusion with high-level officials for a sex ring to make. Though, if this turns out to be the work of GPB et al, it certainly presents a rather compelling argument wrt how they work.

In summary, you've got a bunch of (ep)hebephiles swarming around Noreen Gosch feeding her a lot of BS. I guess what I'm saying is, WTF is up with that, if it's not some sort of concerted effort to derail the investigation and divert attention away from them?

 

[shadowraiths]

"And same said individual is alleged to have told Ms. Gosch that Eugene Martin was targeted to be abducted."

Who said this? Reference, please?
Noreen alleges that she was warned that a kidnapping would occur in a certain time frame - I don't recall her claiming that anyone told her Eugene Martin was targetted to be abducted.

I could be wrong, but please post verification.

Good catch, Roy. My misstatement! So, that makes Sam Soda's alleged claim even more plausible. Don't you think?

 

[Roy Harrold]

"If the aforementioned individual's claim is true (and I'm still trying to track that bit down), then imho, it is quite possible that Bonacci's account is, in part, true. That he, along with Soda, Sykora & GPB, abducted Johnny."

You are making my point for me. Bonacci's story isn't about and doesn't involve GPB or Sykora. In fact, Bonacci & the whole "Franklin cover-up" mythology have been distracting attention from those two - if they were indeed involved in Gosch or Martin - for decades. Bonacci tries to implicate Sam Soda, but Soda tried to turn in Sykora - so if anything, Bonacci has been casting suspicion on the good guy, not the bad one. Which is a consistent theme of the whole Bonacci associated fantasy - that genuine sex offenders like Bonacci and Rusty Nelson are actually "heroes" while the very people who really have been apprehending sexual criminals over the years are secretly the bad guys.

"In summary, you've got a bunch of (ep)hebephiles swarming around Noreen Gosch feeding her a lot of BS. I guess what I'm saying is, WTF is up with that, if it's not some sort of concerted effort to derail the investigation and divert attention away from them?"

Exactly. Derail by diverting attention away from themselves and onto a mythical "monstrous conspiracy" that never existed. That's about right.

 

[shadowraiths]

You are making my point for me. Bonacci's story isn't about and doesn't involve GPB or Sykora. In fact, Bonacci & the whole "Franklin cover-up" mythology have been distracting attention from those two - if they were indeed involved in Gosch or Martin - for decades.

Funny, that was not at all the point I was attempting to make. But you go right on riding that one trick pony. ^_~

 

[CrimeSolver]

Let me ask a question as someone who hasn't followed the case as closely as most of you, and who doesn't want to read through hundreds of posts.

Has this "Emilio" ever been identified? I remember a composite sketch of someone named Emilio, but I don't remember if he was part of Bonacci's story, in which case it's questionable he even exists.

 

[shefner]

Sam Soda gave up Sykora to divert attention away from the true abductors....Sykora was set up to go down as part of the "cover-up." Soda was in on it....Bonacci did as he was told: he kidnapped Johnny Gosch and he was eventually taken to "the Col." who had ordered his kidnapping.
Maybe Soda was having second thoughts when he contacted Noreen and told her about the future kidnapping of another boy....maybe he was deepening the set up of Sykora, who knows?
I don't find it amazing that Eugene Martin's kidnapping was planned. Who cares if his brother was out delivering papers with him....no big deal. Johnny had other paper boys around him the morning he was taken...they even saw the guys. Look at Jacob Wetterling? He was with 2 other boys when he was taken. Just because Eugene might have been out with his brother most mornings doesn't mean he wouldn't have been kidnapped. It seems just an unfortunate coincidence....

The fact that the cops didn't do more investigation early on is very suspicious to me....despite what one poster has stated, police were not on a "wild-goose chase." They weren't on any chase at all. And without private investigators, we have half the information we have.

What amazes me about GPB is his connection to Sen. Grassley's office. If he was answering the phone from Grassley's office and appearing in public places as a representative of the government, how the heck did that happen? What did he mean to these people? Its very unnerving, much like Jeff Gannon appearing at White House press conferences and asking the US President padded questions when he is going by an assumed name, has worked as a male prostitute and *advertiser censored* "star" and has absolutely no press credentials. He may not be Johnny Gosch, but he's somebody--of that you can be sure.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Let me ask a question as someone who hasn't followed the case as closely as most of you, and who doesn't want to read through hundreds of posts.

Has this "Emilio" ever been identified? I remember a composite sketch of someone named Emilio, but I don't remember if he was part of Bonacci's story, in which case it's questionable he even exists.

No, Emilio has never been identified, yes he was part of Bonacci's story. I agree its questionable whether he ever existed.

 

[Roy Harrold]

"Sam Soda gave up Sykora to divert attention away from the true abductors....Sykora was set up to go down as part of the "cover-up."

An interesting speculation, but if that were true why wouldn't Sykora simply rat them all out? That's one of the problems with theories of very complex conspiracies - the more complex they are, the higher the probability becomes that the conspirators will rat each other out.

As for Gosch & Martin being "pre-selected" for kidnapping - if the kidnappers were so bold that they would have taken these boys regardless of who they might be accompanied by, why weren't they kidnapped when they were in the company of their father (Gosch) or brother (Martin)? They weren't, they were kidnapped on days when they were - unpredictably - unaccompanied by their relatives. That's not a coincidence. Whoever abducted them was targeting unaccompanied boys, probably more so than Gosch or Martin specifically.

"What amazes me about GPB is his connection to Sen. Grassley's office. If he was answering the phone from Grassley's office and appearing in public places as a representative of the government, how the heck did that happen?"

So far, we only have Noreen's statements by which to judge whether any of that is even true. We have no verification of GPB being in Grassley's office, or at the Senate hearing. If you can find any, please do share it.

In fact, most of the time I still put the name Paul Bishop in quotations, because we have no outside confirmation that the GPB imprisoned in Virginia is in fact the same person Noreen Gosch claims to have had a spooky relationship with six months after her son went missing. Noreen says he is, but we have no corroboration of that...

 

[shefner]

Let me ask a question as someone who hasn't followed the case as closely as most of you, and who doesn't want to read through hundreds of posts.

Has this "Emilio" ever been identified? I remember a composite sketch of someone named Emilio, but I don't remember if he was part of Bonacci's story, in which case it's questionable he even exists.

Hi, crimesolver....it might help for you to read this link from America's Most Wanted. It gives a general synopsis of the case and if you go about halfway down the page, you will see some names and descriptions listed in italics. There you will find a description about "Emilio" and others involved in the abduction.

http://www.amw.com/missing_children/case.cfm?id=26170

I would also like to mention that I believe Paul Bonacci is totally honest. He was thoroughly examined by three different qualified psychiatrists. Each one of them said that Bonacci was being truthful. He has MPD (multiple personality disorder) as the result of years of abuse. He is a convicted child molester but I would like to say that he was convicted because he admitted to touching a young male relative in his private area but on the outside of his pants. I know this doesn't make it right, but it helps to understand what he did that caused him to be convicted. Considering all that was done to him, its truly a wonder to me how he survives day to day. His voluntary testimony (including honest and embarassing things about himself, such as the fact he abducted Johnny, sexually abused him, was a drug runner, etc.) was extremely helpful to private investigators. His remorse when meeting Noreen was overwhelming (he broke down in tears the instant he saw her). His ability to correctly identify perpertrators as well as identify places and times, etc., leads me to believe in him.

 

[shefner]

Sykora didn't rat anyone out because he wasn't in on the "ring." There was no one to rat out....I'm sure he had connections of some kind, but most likely didn't know the implications of those associations. Let's face it, most molesters and child sex abusers have "friends." We know that Shawn Hornbeck's abuser took him across state lines for sex with another adult. These abusers have been aided greatly by the internet, which allows these guys to work together across state lines and internationally.
Still, I think Sykora was the low man on the totem pole.....

Concerning Johnny's abduction....think about it Roy, Johnny's buddy saw the suspicious man. Johnny wasn't alone. Johnny even talked to the kid, telling him something was up with this guy and he was headed home. I've often thought about the guts (or sheer arrogance) of these abductors....they obviously knew that others had seen them and their car. They didn't have to be alone in order to be kidnapped.

I think this GPB is the same man that contacted Noreen. I can't wrap my mind around his role, but I believe he could have been a plant. The hearing did take place and if you look up Arlen Spector you can view his interest in organized crime and kidnapping crime. Some hearing transcripts are able to be viewed online but I have been told that the transcript of the particular hearing Noreen refers to is not available online. But the hearing transcript might be available in hard copy from Sen. Spectors office....I have a friend who is trying to get a copy. John Walsh testified that day also. If I find a copy of this hearing, I will let you know...

 

[Roy Harrold]

Yes, that little shriek offstage was me

Let's bury the myth of poor misunderstood angel Paul Bonacci once and for good. In the first place, this: "He was thoroughly examined by three different qualified psychiatrists. Each one of them said that Bonacci was being truthful". is completely preposterous. Where did you get that idea?
Psychiatrist cannot, and do not make evaluations about anyone being truthful or not.

I suspect the origin of that myth, is this:
http://franklincase.org/8-28-90.htm

Wherein the Douglas County's Franklin grand jury stated that "Bonacci's psychiatrist "doubts that he can tell the truth." and Dr Mead states that he never made such as assertion. That's completely different from stating that Bonacci is/was/ever has been "truthful".

The grand jury also stated:
The grand jury said in its report: "He (Bonacci) has told numerous stories, recanted the same and then told more on videotape to (Gary) Caradori (the Franklin legislative committee's investigator who died in a July plane crash).
"Even while testifying before us, he admitted that some of his grand jury testimony was untrue."
"His many inconsistencies and contradictions render his testimony unbelievable and necessitate his indictment for perjury."

And as for the excusing and minimizing of Bonacci's sexual offending, for the record:
"Bonacci was jailed last November on three charges of sexually molesting boys. He pleaded no contest to the fondling charges and is serving five years in prison."

Three charges. Boys, plural. Like most sexual offenders, Bonacci took the plea deal of pleading guilty to one, lesser charge presumably so that the boys (plural) wouldn't have to be retraumatized by testifying in court.

No one should feel pity for Bonacci. There is no proof he was victimized by anyone, and there is proof that he victimized others.

 

[Roy Harrold]

As for this:
"The fact that the cops didn't do more investigation early on is very suspicious to me....despite what one poster has stated, police were not on a "wild-goose chase." They weren't on any chase at all. And without private investigators, we have half the information we have."

You have no idea what law enforcement agencies have or have not done in relation to investigating this case, over the years, since they generally don't comment on that while a case of this nature remains open. But here's a reminder of the scoreboard:

The number of arrests for sexual offenses generated by Noreen Gosch, John DeCamp and all of their "investigators" over a 25 year period from the time Johnny Gosch went missing: ZERO.

The number of arrests for sexual offenses in the US generated by legitimate law enforcement over the same period: more than four million.

 

[CrimeSolver]

Hi, crimesolver....it might help for you to read this link from America's Most Wanted. It gives a general synopsis of the case and if you go about halfway down the page, you will see some names and descriptions listed in italics. There you will find a description about "Emilio" and others involved in the abduction.

http://www.amw.com/missing_children/case.cfm?id=26170

I would also like to mention that I believe Paul Bonacci is totally honest. He was thoroughly examined by three different qualified psychiatrists. Each one of them said that Bonacci was being truthful. He has MPD (multiple personality disorder) as the result of years of abuse. He is a convicted child molester but I would like to say that he was convicted because he admitted to touching a young male relative in his private area but on the outside of his pants. I know this doesn't make it right, but it helps to understand what he did that caused him to be convicted. Considering all that was done to him, its truly a wonder to me how he survives day to day. His voluntary testimony (including honest and embarassing things about himself, such as the fact he abducted Johnny, sexually abused him, was a drug runner, etc.) was extremely helpful to private investigators. His remorse when meeting Noreen was overwhelming (he broke down in tears the instant he saw her). His ability to correctly identify perpertrators as well as identify places and times, etc., leads me to believe in him.

Thanks, shefner. I remember seeing the AMW episodes about ten to fifteen years ago about Gosch's supposed visit to his mother. I have also read "The Franklin Cover-up". I'm just not immersed in the case like all of you.

What makes me skeptical about theories of pedo rings in this case is that nothing conclusively proven has ever come of them, to my knowledge. If it were true, there are enough accusations floating around that something definitive should have arisen by now.

 

[shefner]

crimesolver....this case is so infused with emotion and complication that I fear we may never know all the truth about what happened.

Most posters here are probably either "on the fence" about the cover-up idea or believe it is totally irrelevant and impossible. I believe a cover-up took place. Most of those posters who agreed with me have taken off for the hills! LOL The abuse here for the "cover-up" believers is pretty rough. Several former posters have contacted me and refuse to even read over here anymore. Thats pretty sad. They tell me that posting here is a waste of my time, but I do think its important to share my viewpoint.

Some very intelligent and respectable people share my beliefs about the coverup, some of them are former CIA agents and FBI investigators. At the same time, there are some very intelligent and respectable people who think the coverup idea is unreasonable. While I respect their opinions, and at times have waivered in my own opinions, I just can't accept that a coverup didn't happen. Its perfectly OK for you not to believe it! Its a very tough issue and so many years have passed....

 

[Roy Harrold]

You can choose to believe whatever you wish, but your belief cannot change facts.

The difference between my having casually mentioned here that I was victimized by child pornographers, and Bonacci's claims of being victimized, is that my statement was not made in the context of pointing fingers of blame at anyone. Anyone who publicly claims to have been victimized and then says: "...by HIM and HER and THEM!" invites skeptical examination of their claim.

About a judge "believing" Bonacci - the truth is that John DeCamp, the wiley lawyer, pulled a cheap legal trick that American civil law allows.

Here’s something important to understand about Paul Bonacci’s conspiracy allegations and the lawsuit DeCamp “won” on his behalf.

Larry King was destitute and in no position to hire a competent lawyer to answer the lawsuit at the time it was filed, as the shrewd lawyer John DeCamp understood. So, King failed to respond to the lawsuit - he did not have a lawyer representing him at the court proceeding against him.

Because of this, the presiding Judge ruled that ANY allegations made by the complainants Bonnaci/DeCamp would be “presumed to be true”. The judge did not “declare the allegations proven” as the conspiracy theorists claim, he ruled that because King had failed to respond “The defendant King’s default has made those allegations true against him”.

From the transcript of the proceedings, DeCamp is about to question Bonacci under oath:
“Q. Paul, I had originally planned to just go through detail of everything in the petition. For the purposes, as I understand it, of this hearing all that is presumed to be true.

MR. DECAMP: Is that correct, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes, that’s right. That’s acceptable.”

DeCamp then proceeds to take full advantage of the situation, to have some 70 pages of his witnesses testimoney read into the record as “presumed to be true”. If Bonacci had claimed that King had three heads and was born on Mars, that would have gone into the record as "presumed to be true".

 

[shefner]

Your beliefs don't change the facts either....


Larry King is a convicted criminal....a crook. I'm amazed at how you have overlooked that. Millions of dollars were missing from his savings and loan and he (and his wife) took it and lived the high life. How could he become so destitute? He wasn't destitute...he was abandoned by his co-conspirators. But that's ok because he has finally found his way back...or at least he's on his way. In repayment for Larry keeping his trap shut, his old buddies are helping him out. It seems Larry is now hosting pleasant social events and has a very pretty personal chef. Amazing what an ex-con can do when he gets out of jail and gets a job selling cars!

 

[shadowraiths]

Psychiatrist cannot, and do not make evaluations about anyone being truthful or not.

That is not quite true. There is this little instrument called the MMPI, which among many things, measures deception. It is considered a gold standard in a court of law. Although it cannot be used to ferret out precise truths, it can and is used to determine if someone is a habitual liar—which is what you appear to be implying wrt Paul Bonacci. As for his SXO status? If what he has stated about abducting Johnny is even remotely true, then he would have been around 14 or 15 at the time. Which is about the right age for a victim to be inducted into the ring's "inner circle" so to speak.

Which btw, is what I suspect happened to GPB as well. After all, recall that the Richard Evans is 20 years his senior. Also recall that GPB was abusing boys as early as the late 1970s (which would place him in his late teens). And, if the individual who claims that Evans & GPB were together in 1979, is in fact, recalling correctly, then I highly suspect Evans was (and quite likely, still is) GPB's "handler" and that GPB's induction would have begun when he was in his early to mid teens. Just like Paul Bonacci. That is, if Paul is, in fact, stating the truth.

Does this absolve either of them from their crimes? Of course not. It does however seem to fall quite neatly within the paedophile ring paradigm. That is, the one that you (apparently) do not believe exists.

 

[Teresa Larson]

I have posted numerous times that it's very possible whoever was a head of the religious camp JG went to 2 weeks prior to his disappearance was the one who kidnapped Johnny However he was never checked out per Noreen's orders. Denny Whelan and my other PI friend wanted to investigate him but Noreen wouldn't allow them too. Her excuse was that a man of religion wouldn't do anything like that. I firmly believe whoever took Johnny was from the area he lived in. I know you all have your big pedophile ring theories but I don't buy them and I never have. I live in Omaha so I have been on top of this for years.

 

[Roy Harrold]

That is not quite true. There is this little instrument called the MMPI, which among many things, measures deception. It is considered a gold standard in a court of law. Although it cannot be used to ferret out precise truths, it can and is used to determine if someone is a habitual liar—which is what you appear to be implying wrt Paul Bonacci. As for his SXO status? If what he has stated about abducting Johnny is even remotely true, then he would have been around 14 or 15 at the time. Which is about the right age for a victim to be inducted into the ring's "inner circle" so to speak.

Which btw, is what I suspect happened to GPB as well. After all, recall that the Richard Evans is 20 years his senior. Also recall that GPB was abusing boys as early as the late 1970s (which would place him in his late teens). And, if the individual who claims that Evans & GPB were together in 1979, is in fact, recalling correctly, then I highly suspect Evans was (and quite likely, still is) GPB's "handler" and that GPB's induction would have begun when he was in his early to mid teens. Just like Paul Bonacci. That is, if Paul is, in fact, stating the truth.

Does this absolve either of them from their crimes? Of course not. It does however seem to fall quite neatly within the paedophile ring paradigm. That is, the one that you (apparently) do not believe exists.

I have repeatedly stated that I'm quite aware that pedophile rings are a historical reality, but that I'm skeptical of the allegations about such a thing in this case. Please stop accusing me of denying the existence of pedophile rings altogether.