christine2448
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OT, thanks for posting this, I can use this for many things! :blowkiss:
IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3
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OT, thanks for posting this, I can use this for many things! :blowkiss:
shefner
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Gosh, Dr. Doogie, you really have it in for TG! If only I could figure out why....since he speaks highly of you.
By trying to discredit him, are you hoping to dismiss the idea that the Franklin Scandal happened, that Gosch was kidnapped by a pedophile with links to an organized ring, or that Ted is sincere in his work for Noreen?
As far as psychics go, I have been one to easily dismiss them. But after studying criminology, one will see that many LE turn to them for help with particular crimes, especially those involving people who have gone missing or who have met with foul play. Certain psychics become "regulars," and are contacted again and again by LE. They rarely get every case right....and sometimes are downright wrong. But because they have ocassionally gotten certain aspects of crimes right, or have actually helped LE "solve" particular crimes, LE will turn to them to attempt to resolve cases that have proved to be extremely difficult. I am not making the case for any psychic, just stating that some of them have been helpful to LE.
Also, if you do not believe that unmarked helicopters can track you down where you live, go here and watch video footage.......
http://desertfae.com/harassment.htm
Here you will see "desertfae" and her daughter being surrounded by some strange looking birds....seems pretty ominous to me.
If you have time, look at other video material from her site concerning the death of her father.
You may call him names if you choose, but Ted Gunderson is sincere. He has helped many people through the years. Some of those he has helped, or linked himself to, have ended up attempting to hurt him in one way or another. He has received many death threats...and most recently, his grown son was attacked. No amount of money would inspire me to risk the things he has....and then to be labeled a "kook" on top of it all.
I rarely drop by here anymore....and I've noticed that most of the posting on this thread has ceased to be about Johnny. Matter of fact, its almost ceased entirely. Its just not worth the effort to go 'round and 'round the same territory. We disagree about many of our ideas about what happened to Johnny....but there is no question that all of us care--or we wouldn't be here. And yes, Ted Gunderson cares too.
shefner
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Oops....just wanted to point out one more thing before going. While I think James Randi is most likely correct in his claim that many "psychics" and "spiritualists" are frauds...and that some of their tricks are simply made up "magic," he is still a controversial figure in his own right.
He offended many with his following statement concerning Christianity (and Judaism)....
|"For example, they told me, some 2,000 years ago a mid-East virgin was impregnated by a ghost of some sort, and as a result produced a son who could walk on water, raise the dead, turn water into wine, and multiply loaves of bread and fishes. All that was in addition to tossing out demons. He expected and accepted a brutal, sadistic, death and then he rose from the dead. There was much, much, more. Adam and Eve, they said, were the original humans, plunked down in a garden to start our species going. But I didn't understand, and still don't, that they had only two children, both sons and one of them killed the other yet somehow they produced enough people to populate the Earth, without incest, which was a big no-no! Then some prophet or other made the Earth stop turning, an army blew horns until a wall fell down, a guy named Moses made the Red Sea divide in two, and made frogs fall out of the sky . I needn't go on. And that's only a small start on one religion! ''The Wizard of Oz'' is more believable. And more fun."
Of course, Randi is entitled to his belief (or lack thereof) but I disagree with him. It doesn't make him a "kook..." He is obviously an intelligent person. But on this issue I think he is wrong....and probably others too. I don't know of any two people who totally agree on everything.
On the issue of Johnny Gosch, I would tend to agree wholeheartedly with his mother. She has nothing to gain....and everything to gain, and that says it all.
He offended many with his following statement concerning Christianity (and Judaism)....
|"For example, they told me, some 2,000 years ago a mid-East virgin was impregnated by a ghost of some sort, and as a result produced a son who could walk on water, raise the dead, turn water into wine, and multiply loaves of bread and fishes. All that was in addition to tossing out demons. He expected and accepted a brutal, sadistic, death and then he rose from the dead. There was much, much, more. Adam and Eve, they said, were the original humans, plunked down in a garden to start our species going. But I didn't understand, and still don't, that they had only two children, both sons and one of them killed the other yet somehow they produced enough people to populate the Earth, without incest, which was a big no-no! Then some prophet or other made the Earth stop turning, an army blew horns until a wall fell down, a guy named Moses made the Red Sea divide in two, and made frogs fall out of the sky . I needn't go on. And that's only a small start on one religion! ''The Wizard of Oz'' is more believable. And more fun."
Of course, Randi is entitled to his belief (or lack thereof) but I disagree with him. It doesn't make him a "kook..." He is obviously an intelligent person. But on this issue I think he is wrong....and probably others too. I don't know of any two people who totally agree on everything.
On the issue of Johnny Gosch, I would tend to agree wholeheartedly with his mother. She has nothing to gain....and everything to gain, and that says it all.
Dr. Doogie
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My motive for detailing the questionable history of Ted Gunderson is in direct response to those who offer up his background as evidence of the legitimacy of his claims. If this "retired Special-Agent in Charge of the Los Angeles office of the FBI" title is used to provide an authoritative spin on the Franklin Conspiracy belief, then it is also informative to see what other claims the title is used to legitimize. If TG is using his title to lend credence to something that is near-universally believed to be crackpot by the general population, it diminishes the authority of that title.
Let me provide a hopefully illustrative example: If a claim that our current energy crisis can be solved by harvesting and burning flakes of human dandruff is made, most of us would be immediately skeptical. However, if that claim is made by a Harvard professor with a PHD in energy sciences, it holds a lot more clout. But if we then discover that this same proffessor has published a doctoral thesis on how he has a colony of Martians currently residing in his rectal cavity, we would realize that he was a kook and would dismiss the dandruff theory (no matter how sincere or well-meaning the professor was).
Let us look at the series of events and how we all have responded to them:
1. Johhny Gosch disappears.
2. Someone somewhere approaches Noreen with the idea that he was kidnapped by a group of pedophiles with connections to the highest levels of government (I do not know if Gunderson or DeCamp were the initiators of this idea with Noreen, or if they came into the picture after Noreen had formed her opinion.)
3. Some people (myself included) reject the idea of the conspiracy.
4. Noreen and her defenders (pro-FCers) offer up the authority of an ex-FBI agent to bolster her claims.
5. The anti-FCers respond that the ex-FBI agent also has aligned himself with several non-believable (and some laughable) ideas in the past, so his authority is questionable. And by extension, Noreen's credibility (not sincerity, but credibilty) is diminished by her continued association with people such as Gunderson and a stone-cold lunatic as Johnson-Holm.
6. Pro-FCers say that anti-FCers are attacking Noreen.
7. AntiFCers respond that they are not attacking Noreen, only attacking her belief in the conspiracy.
8. And on and on and on....
My "attacks" on Gunderson have been rather mild as compared to what other people in conspiracy circles say about him - if you believe that I am out to get Ted, you should google the phrases "Ted L. Gunderson", "Stew Webb" and "Barbara Hartwell" if you really want to see what nasty things are being said about him. I have specifically not posted any of these claims because Webb and Hartwell seem to be kooks also and it would be hypocritical to offer their comments as legitimate critiques. But for pure entertainment value, it is a hoot to watch these nutjobs eat each other alive.
Gunderson is the Al Sharpton of the conspiracy movement. He can always be relied upon to show up in the middle of any controversy and provide an outragous statement. How many times can he claim the sky is falling before we ignore him?
Let me provide a hopefully illustrative example: If a claim that our current energy crisis can be solved by harvesting and burning flakes of human dandruff is made, most of us would be immediately skeptical. However, if that claim is made by a Harvard professor with a PHD in energy sciences, it holds a lot more clout. But if we then discover that this same proffessor has published a doctoral thesis on how he has a colony of Martians currently residing in his rectal cavity, we would realize that he was a kook and would dismiss the dandruff theory (no matter how sincere or well-meaning the professor was).
Let us look at the series of events and how we all have responded to them:
1. Johhny Gosch disappears.
2. Someone somewhere approaches Noreen with the idea that he was kidnapped by a group of pedophiles with connections to the highest levels of government (I do not know if Gunderson or DeCamp were the initiators of this idea with Noreen, or if they came into the picture after Noreen had formed her opinion.)
3. Some people (myself included) reject the idea of the conspiracy.
4. Noreen and her defenders (pro-FCers) offer up the authority of an ex-FBI agent to bolster her claims.
5. The anti-FCers respond that the ex-FBI agent also has aligned himself with several non-believable (and some laughable) ideas in the past, so his authority is questionable. And by extension, Noreen's credibility (not sincerity, but credibilty) is diminished by her continued association with people such as Gunderson and a stone-cold lunatic as Johnson-Holm.
6. Pro-FCers say that anti-FCers are attacking Noreen.
7. AntiFCers respond that they are not attacking Noreen, only attacking her belief in the conspiracy.
8. And on and on and on....
My "attacks" on Gunderson have been rather mild as compared to what other people in conspiracy circles say about him - if you believe that I am out to get Ted, you should google the phrases "Ted L. Gunderson", "Stew Webb" and "Barbara Hartwell" if you really want to see what nasty things are being said about him. I have specifically not posted any of these claims because Webb and Hartwell seem to be kooks also and it would be hypocritical to offer their comments as legitimate critiques. But for pure entertainment value, it is a hoot to watch these nutjobs eat each other alive.
Gunderson is the Al Sharpton of the conspiracy movement. He can always be relied upon to show up in the middle of any controversy and provide an outragous statement. How many times can he claim the sky is falling before we ignore him?
shefner
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Dr. Doogie, I am going to take a moment to respond before I end my time here once again. I find it hilarious that you treat me like one of the "nutjobs" you refer to in your post. Your condescending attitude speaks loudly about your self-assessment. Still, I do not need for you to suggest to me the names of Gunderson's foes....I know them well, thanks.
Before you make assumptions about "near-universal crackpot beliefs," it might do well for you to do a bit of research. The most recent EMOL survey found that 60% of Americans believe there is intelligent life on other planets. I'm not an expert so I don't know.
It is so futile to waste time hashing out Noreen's views. She is Johnny's mother....I don't think anyone twisted her arm to get her to buy into the "conspiracy theory." She searched for her son, because LE failed to help her....and the end result is where her search took her.
I am not an "FCer" or "anti-FCer." I am not anti-LE. I have no agenda. There is no point to prove.....and I don't feel compelled to be right. Matter of fact, I hope I'm not. I am just a mom....who had a son who went missing too. No one can know what that is like unless you've been there. Fortunately, with the help of devoted LE, my son was eventually located and brought home. But life will never be the same again.
Instead of calling names and shooting off the cuff, I simply and humbly send my prayers to Noreen, Johnny, and all those who love him and have done their very best to find him. God bless them....
Before you make assumptions about "near-universal crackpot beliefs," it might do well for you to do a bit of research. The most recent EMOL survey found that 60% of Americans believe there is intelligent life on other planets. I'm not an expert so I don't know.
It is so futile to waste time hashing out Noreen's views. She is Johnny's mother....I don't think anyone twisted her arm to get her to buy into the "conspiracy theory." She searched for her son, because LE failed to help her....and the end result is where her search took her.
I am not an "FCer" or "anti-FCer." I am not anti-LE. I have no agenda. There is no point to prove.....and I don't feel compelled to be right. Matter of fact, I hope I'm not. I am just a mom....who had a son who went missing too. No one can know what that is like unless you've been there. Fortunately, with the help of devoted LE, my son was eventually located and brought home. But life will never be the same again.
Instead of calling names and shooting off the cuff, I simply and humbly send my prayers to Noreen, Johnny, and all those who love him and have done their very best to find him. God bless them....
Dr. Doogie
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Shefner:
How can I be treating you like a nut-job when I do not even mention you in my post? I specifically called Gunderson a nut-job and have detailed why I think that this is a fair evaluaton here and in previous posts. Unless you are Gunderson (which I know you are not), then I do not understand your defensiveness.
Noreen, Ted and deCamp are making the claim that Satanist/Pedophiles have infiltrated the highest levels of the government, military, intelligence, and law enforcement. If their claims are true, then virtually everything that we believe we know about this country is a lie and the taking up of arms against all things establishment would be the only logical response. Before I start oiling up my assault weapon, I think it is fair and prudent to review the people who are making these claims.
Your response concerning 60% of the population believing in intelligent life existing elsewhere is, I believe, a logical fallacy. If I had claimed that TG said that God had told him to strip down, smear himself in peanut butter and climb the Empire State Building while singing the songs of the Village People, a logical retort is not "Well, 75% of Americans believe in God." Count me among the 60% who believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe. However, I do not believe that that intelligent life includes Reptillian aliens holding kidnapped children as slaves under Area 51. This is kook territory, yet two of the people who Noreen has chosen to put her faith in hold that belief - Gunderson and Johnson-Holm. Noreen's lack of discernment when it comes to vetting her associates is troubling.
My heart goes out to Noreen for what she has had to endure over these decades, but I cannot give away my brain also.
How can I be treating you like a nut-job when I do not even mention you in my post? I specifically called Gunderson a nut-job and have detailed why I think that this is a fair evaluaton here and in previous posts. Unless you are Gunderson (which I know you are not), then I do not understand your defensiveness.
Noreen, Ted and deCamp are making the claim that Satanist/Pedophiles have infiltrated the highest levels of the government, military, intelligence, and law enforcement. If their claims are true, then virtually everything that we believe we know about this country is a lie and the taking up of arms against all things establishment would be the only logical response. Before I start oiling up my assault weapon, I think it is fair and prudent to review the people who are making these claims.
Your response concerning 60% of the population believing in intelligent life existing elsewhere is, I believe, a logical fallacy. If I had claimed that TG said that God had told him to strip down, smear himself in peanut butter and climb the Empire State Building while singing the songs of the Village People, a logical retort is not "Well, 75% of Americans believe in God." Count me among the 60% who believe that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe. However, I do not believe that that intelligent life includes Reptillian aliens holding kidnapped children as slaves under Area 51. This is kook territory, yet two of the people who Noreen has chosen to put her faith in hold that belief - Gunderson and Johnson-Holm. Noreen's lack of discernment when it comes to vetting her associates is troubling.
My heart goes out to Noreen for what she has had to endure over these decades, but I cannot give away my brain also.
Many offer up evidence of the legitimacy of their claims. As in TG it seems to be his past work in the FBI. Others might offer up the authority position of levels of the government, military, intelligence, or law enforcement as to why they may be untouchable.
Also to be prudent I think it's best review the people's stories of envolvement taking special note of collaborating stories from multiple sources that were know to be close to the events.
I think it is also prudent to look at past history of levels of government, military, intel, and law enforcement. The FOIA has been helpful for this aspect with many tapes of past presidents being transcribed. The recent book "Legacy of Ashes" The History of the CIA by Tim Weiner, seems to be a well written book referencing to many conversations held in the Whitehouse and other places. There are other sources for this information.
If we are going to examine one side of the argument, it makes sense to me to examine the other side also. For this reason, I have little doubt satanist/pedophiles have infiltrated the highest levels of the government, military, intelligence, and law enforcement. I see no reason for them not to as they are in other areas of society also. Then again I don't believe these trusted authorities are being over run with the types either.
I don't see the below as the only logical response. Many believe the claims to be true, but do not feel taking up arms to be a logical response. Why do anything only based upon the way we believe rather than what is known?
"If their claims are true, then virtually everything that we believe we know about this country is a lie and the taking up of arms against all things establishment would be the only logical response"
YMMV
Also to be prudent I think it's best review the people's stories of envolvement taking special note of collaborating stories from multiple sources that were know to be close to the events.
I think it is also prudent to look at past history of levels of government, military, intel, and law enforcement. The FOIA has been helpful for this aspect with many tapes of past presidents being transcribed. The recent book "Legacy of Ashes" The History of the CIA by Tim Weiner, seems to be a well written book referencing to many conversations held in the Whitehouse and other places. There are other sources for this information.
If we are going to examine one side of the argument, it makes sense to me to examine the other side also. For this reason, I have little doubt satanist/pedophiles have infiltrated the highest levels of the government, military, intelligence, and law enforcement. I see no reason for them not to as they are in other areas of society also. Then again I don't believe these trusted authorities are being over run with the types either.
I don't see the below as the only logical response. Many believe the claims to be true, but do not feel taking up arms to be a logical response. Why do anything only based upon the way we believe rather than what is known?
"If their claims are true, then virtually everything that we believe we know about this country is a lie and the taking up of arms against all things establishment would be the only logical response"
YMMV
Dr. Doogie
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Thanks, Capt, for your well-reasoned post. My statement about taking up arms may have been hyperbole, but I do not understand how anyone can believe the Franklin Conspiracy (at least the part of it involving the highest levels) to be true and still function on a day-to-day basis without going insane. (Please note that I did not say that those who do believe are insane, just that insanity may be a logical reaction if it is true.)
I am aware that the government is capable of some very horrible things that have been proven true: the Tuskegee experiments, MK-Ultra, drug running, etc. I also believe that Satan is a distinct spiritual entity who seeks to decieve and that some on this Earth are open or secretive followers of him. Some of those believers may have achieved a high level of prominence in goverment or the military such as Aquino. But I cannot fathom that they have co-opted the levels of society that would be required for such a far-reaching conspiracy to be operational.
I may be naive, but I cannot allow myself to indulge that level of nihilism.
I am aware that the government is capable of some very horrible things that have been proven true: the Tuskegee experiments, MK-Ultra, drug running, etc. I also believe that Satan is a distinct spiritual entity who seeks to decieve and that some on this Earth are open or secretive followers of him. Some of those believers may have achieved a high level of prominence in goverment or the military such as Aquino. But I cannot fathom that they have co-opted the levels of society that would be required for such a far-reaching conspiracy to be operational.
I may be naive, but I cannot allow myself to indulge that level of nihilism.
I find it much easier to believe the coverup than,,,,,that satan is a spiritual entity.
I don't think the threads of connections have to be very strong to give the impressions of conspiracy, but it only takes one thread to make it a conspiracy. I know it is more than possible from my experience working with survivors.
If you choose to not to believe, I am ok with that. Please don't cancel out theories that have multiple witnesses that validate them. That would seem too much like shooting ourselves in the foot.
I don't think the threads of connections have to be very strong to give the impressions of conspiracy, but it only takes one thread to make it a conspiracy. I know it is more than possible from my experience working with survivors.
If you choose to not to believe, I am ok with that. Please don't cancel out theories that have multiple witnesses that validate them. That would seem too much like shooting ourselves in the foot.
Roy Harrold
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Shadow - thanks for the articles referencing Noreen Gosch's statements that she believed her son to be a victim of a "cult" (note, no mention of Satanic at that point), and specifically pointing a finger at "The Way International".
Other than the letter (of condolence) she claims to have received from Way International, I believe the origin of her suspicions at that time can be laid at the doorstep of CFF/CAN (Citizen's Freedom Foundation, later Cult Awareness Network).
I have CFF/CAN publications from that timeperiod, little pamphlets widely circulated to public libraries and police & child welfare agencies across North America, such as "Cults and the law" and "Cults and the family". These list Way International as a suspected "destructive cult". You only need put Way International into google to bring up sites where ex-members make accusations about Way Int. being cultesque.
CFF/CAN was founded by "the father of deprogramming", Ted Patrick, a sincere but seriously deluded, "self-taught" cult chaser and convicted kidnapper:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Patrick
What is clear from the articles you've provided, is that whatever "flavor" of concern happened to be the trendy one within child protection circles at any given point in time, Ms Gosch has claimed her son to be a victim of it. First, "destructive cults", then "satanic cults", then "pedophile rings", then "mk ultra mind-control conspiracies" and now "child trafficking rings". Similarly, the "Franklin case" allegations change over time and follow the same pattern.
In my opinion.
Other than the letter (of condolence) she claims to have received from Way International, I believe the origin of her suspicions at that time can be laid at the doorstep of CFF/CAN (Citizen's Freedom Foundation, later Cult Awareness Network).
I have CFF/CAN publications from that timeperiod, little pamphlets widely circulated to public libraries and police & child welfare agencies across North America, such as "Cults and the law" and "Cults and the family". These list Way International as a suspected "destructive cult". You only need put Way International into google to bring up sites where ex-members make accusations about Way Int. being cultesque.
CFF/CAN was founded by "the father of deprogramming", Ted Patrick, a sincere but seriously deluded, "self-taught" cult chaser and convicted kidnapper:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Patrick
What is clear from the articles you've provided, is that whatever "flavor" of concern happened to be the trendy one within child protection circles at any given point in time, Ms Gosch has claimed her son to be a victim of it. First, "destructive cults", then "satanic cults", then "pedophile rings", then "mk ultra mind-control conspiracies" and now "child trafficking rings". Similarly, the "Franklin case" allegations change over time and follow the same pattern.
In my opinion.
Roy Harrold
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Capt. brought up "Legacy of Ashes" The History of the CIA by Tim Weiner.
I highly recommend it to everyone. It is a fascinating read, based on all the declassified documents available up to the present day.
What stands out, documented by Weiner in this book, is how utterly & hopelessly incompetent the CIA always was. They were the keystone cops of international espionage. They never possessed any serious intelligence-gathering capacity, and 90% of the bizarre plots they cooked up over the years were total failures. Furthermore, several of their most important personnel in intelligence as well as "black ops" were clinically insane - such as Frank Wisner & James Angelton.
They did indeed concoct and experiment with sinister plots, including mind-control, but it is clear that these bozos were incapable of pulling off the extremely sophisticated, long-term operations alleged by people like Gunderson & DeCamp. The CIA's ludicrous pipe-dreams have become conspiracy theorist's nightmares, but the bogeyman was never more than a wannabe, a mere sideshow freak.
Read it yourself and see the truth revealed.
I highly recommend it to everyone. It is a fascinating read, based on all the declassified documents available up to the present day.
What stands out, documented by Weiner in this book, is how utterly & hopelessly incompetent the CIA always was. They were the keystone cops of international espionage. They never possessed any serious intelligence-gathering capacity, and 90% of the bizarre plots they cooked up over the years were total failures. Furthermore, several of their most important personnel in intelligence as well as "black ops" were clinically insane - such as Frank Wisner & James Angelton.
They did indeed concoct and experiment with sinister plots, including mind-control, but it is clear that these bozos were incapable of pulling off the extremely sophisticated, long-term operations alleged by people like Gunderson & DeCamp. The CIA's ludicrous pipe-dreams have become conspiracy theorist's nightmares, but the bogeyman was never more than a wannabe, a mere sideshow freak.
Read it yourself and see the truth revealed.
While pathetic when it comes to intelligence and covert ops, they were and are still very capable of moving many planes around the world, making/spreading money, and cause unnecessary deaths.
And now it seems a Jacob W. connection with Omaha is developing. stay tuned.
And now it seems a Jacob W. connection with Omaha is developing. stay tuned.
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I've only uploaded through 1984, atm. Will try to find time to upload more later.
http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm163/johngosch/News Archives/
Dr. Doogie
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A new website/forum purporting to discuss the Franklin Conspiracy has been created by a couple of the regular posters on this thread to replace the previous site that had been hacked out of existence. I will not mention their names or the website's URL because of what I will summarize below.
My disbelief in the Franklin Conspiracy has been well documented previously and is a source of irritation for the true believers. I received an invitation from an open-minded member there to join which I did. My first post was a congratulations on getting a new site up and running for them to discuss this issue. I ended that post reiterating my belief that Ted Gunderson is a kook. That last line was deleted by the moderator. I then posted a comment that I had lasted only one post before my content had been deleted followed by a smiley face. I then promised to "play nice". Well, evidently, this was too much scrutiny for the FC believers because that entire post was deleted and I was banned. Makes one wonder how open this site is to truly discussing and debating the issue when an opposing view is deleted and the originator of that opinion is banned.
But I come here not to complain about that site, but to publicly state my admiration for the wonderful forum that Websleuths provides us. The moderators here may delete posts and ban members, but is based on gross and continued violation of the TOS, not on members opinions. Can you imagine a forum on Jon Benet that only allowed the opinion that Patsy was guilty while deleting and banning anyone who disagreed with that position? It would not be a forum - it would be a monologue with many voices all saying the exact same thing. In other words, a waste of bandwidth.
So thank you, WS and its mods. You have really created a special place here. I am sorry it took me seeing someone else doing a bad job to realize what a good job that you all do.
And BTW: Ted Gunderson is still a kook.
My disbelief in the Franklin Conspiracy has been well documented previously and is a source of irritation for the true believers. I received an invitation from an open-minded member there to join which I did. My first post was a congratulations on getting a new site up and running for them to discuss this issue. I ended that post reiterating my belief that Ted Gunderson is a kook. That last line was deleted by the moderator. I then posted a comment that I had lasted only one post before my content had been deleted followed by a smiley face. I then promised to "play nice". Well, evidently, this was too much scrutiny for the FC believers because that entire post was deleted and I was banned. Makes one wonder how open this site is to truly discussing and debating the issue when an opposing view is deleted and the originator of that opinion is banned.
But I come here not to complain about that site, but to publicly state my admiration for the wonderful forum that Websleuths provides us. The moderators here may delete posts and ban members, but is based on gross and continued violation of the TOS, not on members opinions. Can you imagine a forum on Jon Benet that only allowed the opinion that Patsy was guilty while deleting and banning anyone who disagreed with that position? It would not be a forum - it would be a monologue with many voices all saying the exact same thing. In other words, a waste of bandwidth.
So thank you, WS and its mods. You have really created a special place here. I am sorry it took me seeing someone else doing a bad job to realize what a good job that you all do.
And BTW: Ted Gunderson is still a kook.
Dr. Doogie
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Okay, something weird is going on here (if it hasn't been weird enough already).
Noreen has recently put up two sketches of a man who she says is the one who took Johnny. What is odd is that these sketches are the same exact pictures that are listed as the kidnapper of Michaela Joy Garecht from Hayward, Ca in 1988. http://www.johnnygosch.com/ http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/garecht_michaela.html
Noreen writes, "I have had the following composite drawing for some time and am releasing it now due to new information on Johnny's case. You will see one photo/composite is from 1982 the second is the same man approximately 10 years later. There is further information concerning this man which will be released at a later time."
What is curious is that the "younger" picture, when listed with the Garecht case, claims that this is what the man looked like in 1988 where he was identified as being "18 to 24 years old", yet Noreen says the picture is from 1982 (when, by using math, the guy would have been between 12 and 18).
I believe that the original composite was created specifically from eyewitnesses of the Garecht kidnapping in 1988. (I will contact Michaela's mother to confirm this as fact or not.) If this is true, then why is Noreen saying that the picture is from six years earlier and is of Johnny's abductor?
Is this another case where someone has fed Noreen bogus info and tried to pass it off as related to Johnny? I recognize that the same person may have abducted both Johnny and Michaela, but why is Noreen saying that the drawing is from the time of Johnny's abduction when it was created for a different abduction six years later?
Noreen has recently put up two sketches of a man who she says is the one who took Johnny. What is odd is that these sketches are the same exact pictures that are listed as the kidnapper of Michaela Joy Garecht from Hayward, Ca in 1988. http://www.johnnygosch.com/ http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/garecht_michaela.html
Noreen writes, "I have had the following composite drawing for some time and am releasing it now due to new information on Johnny's case. You will see one photo/composite is from 1982 the second is the same man approximately 10 years later. There is further information concerning this man which will be released at a later time."
What is curious is that the "younger" picture, when listed with the Garecht case, claims that this is what the man looked like in 1988 where he was identified as being "18 to 24 years old", yet Noreen says the picture is from 1982 (when, by using math, the guy would have been between 12 and 18).
I believe that the original composite was created specifically from eyewitnesses of the Garecht kidnapping in 1988. (I will contact Michaela's mother to confirm this as fact or not.) If this is true, then why is Noreen saying that the picture is from six years earlier and is of Johnny's abductor?
Is this another case where someone has fed Noreen bogus info and tried to pass it off as related to Johnny? I recognize that the same person may have abducted both Johnny and Michaela, but why is Noreen saying that the drawing is from the time of Johnny's abduction when it was created for a different abduction six years later?
Dr. Doogie
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I have confirmed that the composite was created by a witness in 1988. (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgkYmp1V_H8 for the "Unsolved Mysteries" episode on the Garecht case - it confirms this fact.)
So, again, why is Noreen identifying it as a 1982 sketch of Johnny's abductor?
So, again, why is Noreen identifying it as a 1982 sketch of Johnny's abductor?
I have absolulty know idea except my well known theory that Noreen is very mentaly Ill and has her own reality. I too recognize those sketches from the Garecht abduction. Noreen does say that these suspects are wanted in connection to 4 other abductions but the dates are all wrong like you pointed out. I feel sorry for this women.
mjak
Dr. Doogie
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To try and answer my own question, probably what Noreen means is that people associated by Johnny's case veiwed the Garecht composite and said that Johnny's abductor resembled the drawing. But that is not what she said. She said that the drawing was of the man in 1982, implying that it was created as a result of Johnny's abduction.
Oddly enough, I have since been told by someone privy to inside information in the Garecht case that the second drawing (the one that Noreen claims is a ten year age-progression of the first) was, in fact, created by an author who was writing a book about Timothy Bindner and that the drawing was specifically altered to make it closer to Bindner's appearance. It is obvious why the author would be motivated to do this, but it makes it useless for any serious investigation of either the Garecht or Gosch cases.
Oddly enough, I have since been told by someone privy to inside information in the Garecht case that the second drawing (the one that Noreen claims is a ten year age-progression of the first) was, in fact, created by an author who was writing a book about Timothy Bindner and that the drawing was specifically altered to make it closer to Bindner's appearance. It is obvious why the author would be motivated to do this, but it makes it useless for any serious investigation of either the Garecht or Gosch cases.
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