Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #189

[MiniMoo]

I think Libby was just expected to be there at first (I believe she was catfished into a meeting, not sure if it was anthony_shots or emilyanne) and Abby coming was thought of by the killer as not a problem, he had a gun and she was a very slight girl.

As far as a motive for the meeting...murder, possible filming it to distributed and make money (Dropbox?) but also for the thrill of the act, maybe a longtime fantasy fulfilled. Just pure evil.

I think the possibility of the killer having a tiny bit of a conscience (ISP Carter mentioned in the April 2019 PC) was in allowing Abby to redress. Killer may have felt a tiny regret about Abby. Hardly any though, he still slit her throat
AJMO

Why do you feel Libby was expected to be there first?

Is it because of the online chat.

So, you believe BG could have been making a snuff movie or carrying out a fantasy - maybe both.

How did you form the idea of a snuff movie?

 

[mrjitty]

Terrible, this attack and murder!! Unbelievable, what the man did!

Exactly.

Quite a useful comparison IMO

 

[MiniMoo]

I still have 2-3 pages to catch up.on.

Has it ever been brought up as to why BG didn't carry out his deed on the same side he first interacted with the girls?

There seem to be dense bush areas along that side as well, but not like the other side, of course.

Also, on that side where he didn't murder them, are there exit points at all for the public or is all private property.

Does anyone know at all?

 

[Andieinsyd]

A. I think both girls were targeted by being there and being female.

B. I think RA was a regular at the trails as he lived close by. IMO he felt comfortable and confident on the trails and bridge. No need to connect via social media. I think the motive was sexual and sadistic. The violence and terror in this crime is up there with the worst IMO. Whoever committed this crime wasn’t worried about taking risks to achieve his fantasy and came prepared to inflict a lot of pain and horror on his victim(s).
I hope they have the right guy locked up and can prove this at trial.
MOO

 

[Andieinsyd]

I still have 2-3 pages to catch up.on.

Has it ever been brought up as to why BG didn't carry out his deed on the same side he first interacted with the girls?

There seem to be dense bush areas along that side as well, but not like the other side, of course.

Also, on that side where he didn't murder them, are there exit points at all for the public or is all private property.

Does anyone know at all?

I don’t think we know, but I believe he saw BB turn around close to the bridge and began to follow her. He passed A&L and made the decision. He kept going for a bit to see who else was on the trails then turned back and by then they were on the bridge.
ETA Map of trails - access through cemetery on this side of creek seems straightforward and some people have posted videos of them walking there from trails. - think one was G Hughes
MOO

 

[mrjitty]

I agree. The staging isn't complicated. You can do it in some minutes and he had many time with the victims at the crime scene. I think something/someone scared him when he was putting sticks on them, so he gave up and leave the scene.

Yes.

I would not be surprised if he has attacked teens before. He picked this location as a good spot for an abduction of a school kid. He took the gun to control the victim. It didn't go as planned.

IMO he wanted only one victim not two.

It's a sexually motivated assault. Usually he would have been caught quickly and should have been.

MOO

 

[steeltowngirl]

My controversial opinion.

There is no elaborate staging. One girl was murdered while dressed. He threw some sticks on the bodies as he wanted to make them harder to see. probably he gave up. he threw some clothes in the water to destroy DNA.

The case has no connection to CSAM.

MOO

Agree on not being elaborate staging. If the case isn’t connected to CSAM (and it may not be) - what’s your opinion of the best evidence to connect RA to the murders?

 

[Yemelyan]

Do you think that he managed to avoid leaving any dna or fingerprints on this tree during this action or do you think it existed but LE failed to collect it ?

All JMO but if the tree had bark or raised/irregular surfaces it would probably not preserve usable latent fingerprints...maybe at best, partial ones. In addition, if the blood on the tree is a victim's blood, it lowers the possibility of obtaining a complete offender profile from any touch DNA that is present as, essentially, the miniscule touch DNA signal can get drowned out by the larger amount of victim DNA. If he cut himself and the blood on the tree is his blood mixed with a victim's, that's still complicated to analyze but more possible than if it's touch DNA alone.

 

[MollyDDD]

I don’t know what the girls actually say on their video or what happens after the phone goes into the pocket, so I don’t know that the “down the hill” voice is actually BG or what the girls say back to the man. I think that there was more than one person involved, so there’s room for the audio to be someone other than BG, or there may be other people who didn’t appear on the video.

My opinion is that stranger murders of multiple children without sexual assault with complex staging posing in broad daylight all within an hour and the killer possibly videotaped it, is incredibly rare and IMO very unlikely and I think it would be far more likely to be done by a person who knew the girls or Abby personally and perhaps did it for some reason other than random thrill kill or sex. I have a really hard time with the timeline, that all that apparently happened in under an hour with other people all over the trails. (ETA: and I totally forgot my main reason why, which was the redressing of Abby but not Libby)


All MOO

I agree 100%.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Did any of those include extremely tight timelines and/or elaborately staged crime scenes?

A recent quadruple homicide case with a tight timeline: Idaho 4 murders

 

[MollyDDD]

About a year ago a 31 year old man did an attempted double murder and rape on trails at a german tourist attraction. One victim survived. this stuff can be super opportunistic.

US man sentenced for murder of tourist by Germany's Neuschwanstein Castle - BBC News

Troy Philipp B admitted to raping and killing an American tourist near Neuschwanstein Castle in 2023.

www.bbc.com

I remember reading about that. The women were on vacation, excited to see the famous castle with other people around them on a bridge. A man in the crowd told them that he knew of a better viewing spot to see the castle, and so they all went down a trail together. You can’t trust anyone, anywhere.

 

[MollyDDD]

I'm kind of thinking Libby got in the way and, like you, Abby was the target because he took the time to dress her, made sure she was clean and even made an effort to position her body in a certain way.

But what if it is all an act.

And what if there was a female involved?

 

[susane7]

I don’t think we know, but I believe he saw BB turn around close to the bridge and began to follow her. He passed A&L and made the decision. He kept going for a bit to see who else was on the trails then turned back and by then they were on the bridge.
ETA Map of trails - access through cemetery on this side of creek seems straightforward and some people have posted videos of them walking there from trails. - think one was G Hughes
MOO

I absolutely agree. From one hand, sometimes I think BG saw her and started to stalk her but then he saw the girls, noticed the girls would go to a more isolated place (bridge) and started to follow them. On another hand, sometimes I think he didn't see her, he simply got of the bridge and hid himself hoping that he could have look at the bridge waiting for someone to pass and therefore use that as a trap.

I think it is probably that he saw BB, started to stalk her but when he saw the girls were going to the bridge, he made the decision the girls will be his victims. He kept going to see if anyone else was on the trails, so it explain how we didn't see BG in the pic of Abby. Then he came back and follow them to the bridge. I think he said something or gave a dirty look to the girls when they met at the first time before the bridge and scared them. That's why in the BG video, the poor Abby said something like "he is right behind me, isn't he?" I think it was Anna who said that in a interview. Or maybe it was Gray, I don't remember.

 

[MiniMoo]

And what if there was a female involved?

I know some feel there might have been two involved in the girls murders, but I don't.

It's highly unusual, I feel, for most perpetrators to kill with others and especially serial killers or killers that are narcissists.

Mind you, I did read somewhere some years back about the possibility of truckie serial killers working together and how some put in special requests to make trades so that the cargo they wanted was more or less guaranteed.

I actually think the above came from a truckie serial killer inside prison, but as it has been years...

I was looking into highway and particular route murders in the USA when I came across that - there are a lot of murders along the roads and this has been occurring over some decades.

The FBI, I believe, are well aware of it as well.

 

[Yemelyan]

Did any of those include extremely tight timelines and/or elaborately staged crime scenes?

The issue for a lot of double child abduction/murders when comparing with Delphi is that in some of these known cases we know where the abduction occurred but we don't know what happened between the abduction and the separate site where the bodies were recovered IF they ever were, so it's hard to put the timeline together or know if the scene was staged. But, the double abduction/murder of Laura Hobbs and Krystal Tobias is similar to Delphi, to me:

1. Two young victims (8 and 9 years old)
2. Playing outside unattended in wooded/public park area
3. Did not come home for dinner and alert is raised, found the next morning at 6am
4. These victims were found just off a bike path, face up, fully clothed, but dead from a total of 31 stab wounds.
5. Initial reports (persisting for 3 years) stated there was no sign of sexual assault...later, it was found that sexual assault actually had occurred to at least one victim.
6. Had to be a fairly quick timeline just based on location and when people started looking for them, yet there were a number of odd, elaborate offender behaviors such as mutilation of the eyes that the perpetrator was careful to do.

Though the murderer was familiar with an older (if memory serves, it might have been a step) sibling of one of the children, they were apparently chosen as victims at random by virtue of just being in the park and unattended at that particular time. Also the murderer was only 16 when this crime was committed. Later he went on to rape and kill other people. He sometimes targeted single victims and other times double victims after this. I look at this case not to find connections to Delphi (as in, they are not the same offender obviously) but to see general patterns of offender behavior.

 

[Betty P]

I think if there were any link, it would be known by now in this case and the KAK case.

MOO

I don't think they've talked about it. It doesn't mean there isn't a connection. I've seen this before when following cases that involve a victim's death being recorded and shared on the internet. I'm not sure why, but LE usually says very little about that aspect of the murder. Perhaps to protect other investigations?

As for no information about staging of the victims and crime scene, those details often aren't revealed until the trial. This case is a rare exception because the D team leaked the information to the public as a ruse to place the blame on some imaginary group. JMO

 

[grannygates]

I still have 2-3 pages to catch up.on.

Has it ever been brought up as to why BG didn't carry out his deed on the same side he first interacted with the girls?

There seem to be dense bush areas along that side as well, but not like the other side, of course.

Also, on that side where he didn't murder them, are there exit points at all for the public or is all private property.

Does anyone know at all?

Gray Hughes has a video where he walks from the first side of the bridge down to near the crime scene on a game trail, so there is a much easier way to walk to or near the crime scene without having to cross the high bridge or walk through the creek.

 

[TTF14]

Gray Hughes has a video where he walks from the first side of the bridge down to near the crime scene on a game trail, so there is a much easier way to walk to or near the crime scene without having to cross the high bridge or walk through the creek.

I don't think they crossed the creek. Probably not even the bridge to the end.

IMO MOO

 

[grannygates]

I don't think they've talked about it. It doesn't mean there isn't a connection. I've seen this before when following cases that involve a victim's death being recorded and shared on the internet. I'm not sure why, but LE usually says very little about that aspect of the murder. Perhaps to protect other investigations?

As for no information about staging of the victims and crime scene, those details often aren't revealed until the trial. This case is a rare exception because the D team leaked the information to the public as a ruse to place the blame on some imaginary group. JMO

Robert Ives said on the DTH podcast in 2020 that there were at least three signatures at the crime scene. He also said this :

“There were a variety of things at the scene of the crime where I guess I would ask you to talk to the State Police about that. They have to decide what’s going to be released was not going to be released. It was just not your normal ‘a person was killed here’ crime scene. That’s probably all I can say about it.”

IMOA I also recall a comment containing the words “non-secular” but I’m not able to find the source, if anyone also remember this too?

Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Prosecuter Robert Ives shares details about The Delphi Murders crime scene signatures, suspects, & search warrents in this interview transcript from 'Down The Hill' podcast.

crimelights.com

ALL MOO

 

[TTF14]

Robert Ives said on the DTH podcast in 2020 that there were at least three signatures at the crime scene. He also said this :

“There were a variety of things at the scene of the crime where I guess I would ask you to talk to the State Police about that. They have to decide what’s going to be released was not going to be released. It was just not your normal ‘a person was killed here’ crime scene. That’s probably all I can say about it.”

IMOA I also recall a comment containing the words “non-secular” but I’m not able to find the source, if anyone also remember this too?

Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Prosecuter Robert Ives shares details about The Delphi Murders crime scene signatures, suspects, & search warrents in this interview transcript from 'Down The Hill' podcast.

crimelights.com

ALL MOO

Lots of people remember the "non-secular" part, but it's one of those things that have gone "poof" like other statements various people have publicly made.

IMO MOO