IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, West Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 #4

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Hi all...I've been a lurker here for quite awhile but this will be my first post. I chose this thread simply because I live in Des Moines, Ia. Lived here my entire 48 years. And what I offer are just opinions and viewpoints of someone who has been exposed to this case (and Eugene Martins) since the day they happened.

RSBM

Thanks for your insights ILC. I've lived in Iowa all my life as well and I've never forgotten about Johnny or Eugene. I've never met any members of either family but your description of Noreen Gosch & Donald Martin match what I've always heard about them.

I agree about the conspiracy theories. Some are just too far-fetched for me to believe. I do believe it's possible there was some type of pedophile ring which was responsible for Johnny's disappearance. Eugene Martin's disappearance has too many similarities to ignore, in my opinion, though he never received as much publicity as Johnny.

I think it's possible these boys were targeted and the same parties are responsible for both kidnappings. I have no idea what happened from there but I would assume both boys have been dead many years now. Whether Johnny actually visited Noreen or not, I don't know. It's possible. I'm sure she believes he did. I can't imagine the unending torment & grief this woman has lived with all these years. I hope and pray she finds the truth. It was another tragedy Eugene's father died without ever knowing what happened to his son. The way I've seen Noreen described in some circles is nearly as tragic.

All JMHO
 
I found the brothers description interesting and it made me think of John Gosch case...

"Judith's brother, Mark Elwell, stated he believed his sister's abduction was planned. He said he saw a suspicious vehicle, described as a big black car, near the home three weeks before Judith went missing, and the driver, a man, also followed Mark on his newspaper route. Mark believes the driver was Judith's abductor and was "casing" the house. Mark says he saw the same vehicle at the home on the night Judith went missing. Mark's theory has not been substantiated. "

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/e/elwell_judith.html
 
RSBM

Thanks for your insights ILC. I've lived in Iowa all my life as well and I've never forgotten about Johnny or Eugene. I've never met any members of either family but your description of Noreen Gosch & Donald Martin match what I've always heard about them.

I agree about the conspiracy theories. Some are just too far-fetched for me to believe. I do believe it's possible there was some type of pedophile ring which was responsible for Johnny's disappearance. Eugene Martin's disappearance has too many similarities to ignore, in my opinion, though he never received as much publicity as Johnny.

I think it's possible these boys were targeted and the same parties are responsible for both kidnappings. I have no idea what happened from there but I would assume both boys have been dead many years now. Whether Johnny actually visited Noreen or not, I don't know. It's possible. I'm sure she believes he did. I can't imagine the unending torment & grief this woman has lived with all these years. I hope and pray she finds the truth. It was another tragedy Eugene's father died without ever knowing what happened to his son. The way I've seen Noreen described in some circles is nearly as tragic.

All JMHO

Yay!!! My first productive day on WS and I meet a fellow Iowan!!! :great:
I agree with you 100%. There were just way too many similarities with Eugene and Johnny's disappearances to be ignored. Both paperboys, both the same age and some say they resemble each other. I dunno.
Noreen kinda took the Eugene Martin case on as her own along with Johnny's because she too felt that they were connected and she knew that Eugene's family didn't have the resources (private investigators, media specialists...etc...) that she did at the time. The thing is, Eugene truly did disappear. There were sightings and conspiracy theories up the ying yang about Johnny but NOTHING about Eugene. My opinion...he probably didn't last long after he went missing. Johnny, in my gut, I feel he is still alive although if what his own mother believes happened to him really did happen to him he is probably a pedophile himself. I hope not but I think about this a lot. And if Johnny did survive white slavery, pedophilia and all that then he didn't walk away from it without it destroying his soul.
 
I found the brothers description interesting and it made me think of John Gosch case...

"Judith's brother, Mark Elwell, stated he believed his sister's abduction was planned. He said he saw a suspicious vehicle, described as a big black car, near the home three weeks before Judith went missing, and the driver, a man, also followed Mark on his newspaper route. Mark believes the driver was Judith's abductor and was "casing" the house. Mark says he saw the same vehicle at the home on the night Judith went missing. Mark's theory has not been substantiated. "

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/e/elwell_judith.html

It does have a lot of similarites although it did happen over 15 years before Johnny Gosch. But Johnny's kidnapping was very clean and very methodical and you don't get that way without a few practice runs. So, who knows?
The fact that this was a very young little girl is probably what makes me think that it wasn't related to the paperboys in Iowa. Either way it's a very sad story to read. I have a four year old grand daughter and this little girl in your story breaks my heart.
 
Here are two more that remind me of the John Gosch case...I'm not sure if they have been posted in relation to the Gosch case...

Anthony Peters Tumolo - 14 years old - Missing 02/28/1952
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Links: PA PA - Anthony Peter Tumolo, 14, Philadelphia, 15 Oct 1966 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tumolo_anthony.html

"The boys had spent the morning delivering "Inquirer" papers. Afterward, they hung out with friends on the steps of nearby Lady of Consolation School, where they were eighth-graders. They parted just before 15.00 to head to their respective homes for supper, planning to meet up again afterward.

Anthony never arrived at his friend's house and has not been seen or heard from since.
As his parents thought he spent the night at his friends house, they didn't discover he was missing until Anthony failed to return home to deliver his newspapers the next morning."

Reed Taylor Jeppson - 15 years old - Missing 10/11/1964
Salt Lake City, Utah
Links: UT UT - Reed Jeppson, 15, Salt Lake City, 11 Oct 1964 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jeppson_reed.html

"he left all is belongings behind at home, including money he'd earned from his paper route job"

In regards to the Judith Elwell case I believe this kidnapping falls along the same lines… It seems like the same stalking pattern… if the brother was correct.

Daniel Barter – 4 years old – Missing: December 12, 1954
Mobile, Alabama
Link: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/barter_daniel.html
 
Here are two more that remind me of the John Gosch case...I'm not sure if they have been posted in relation to the Gosch case...

Anthony Peters Tumolo - 14 years old - Missing 02/28/1952
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Links: PA PA - Anthony Peter Tumolo, 14, Philadelphia, 15 Oct 1966 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tumolo_anthony.html

"The boys had spent the morning delivering "Inquirer" papers. Afterward, they hung out with friends on the steps of nearby Lady of Consolation School, where they were eighth-graders. They parted just before 15.00 to head to their respective homes for supper, planning to meet up again afterward.

Anthony never arrived at his friend's house and has not been seen or heard from since.
As his parents thought he spent the night at his friends house, they didn't discover he was missing until Anthony failed to return home to deliver his newspapers the next morning."

Reed Taylor Jeppson - 15 years old - Missing 10/11/1964
Salt Lake City, Utah
Links: UT UT - Reed Jeppson, 15, Salt Lake City, 11 Oct 1964 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jeppson_reed.html

"he left all is belongings behind at home, including money he'd earned from his paper route job"

In regards to the Judith Elwell case I believe this kidnapping falls along the same lines… It seems like the same stalking pattern… if the brother was correct.

Daniel Barter – 4 years old – Missing: December 12, 1954
Mobile, Alabama
Link: http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/barter_daniel.html

Deeds, while I can't find a direct link from the cases you mentioned, I do think you've got a very good idea. If Johnny's and Eugene Martin's cases are connected, then perhaps there could be more in the 70's & 80's. I'm sure LE considered that angle but it couldn't hurt to take another look now. Gene's case received very little publicity. There could be others which also received little news coverage.

JMO
 
LE did very little when Johnny went missing and next to nothing at all when Eugene did.
I have nothing but respect for LE but the West Des Moines Police Dept felt that Johnny had just ran away and didn't want to really spend any time or resources to look for him. They did but only because Noreen went to the media and spend a lot of her own money, forcing LE into the spotlight and then they felt they had to do something.

Eugene's family were the polar opposite dynamically from the Goschs. Parents were divorced. Donald Martin had a low paying blue collar job. I think Noreen did what she could to keep Eugene's story breathing because she felt they were connected. Otherwise no one would know the name Eugene Martin.
 
LE did very little when Johnny went missing and next to nothing at all when Eugene did.
I have nothing but respect for LE but the West Des Moines Police Dept felt that Johnny had just ran away and didn't want to really spend any time or resources to look for him. They did but only because Noreen went to the media and spend a lot of her own money, forcing LE into the spotlight and then they felt they had to do something.

Eugene's family were the polar opposite dynamically from the Goschs. Parents were divorced. Donald Martin had a low paying blue collar job. I think Noreen did what she could to keep Eugene's story breathing because she felt they were connected. Otherwise no one would know the name Eugene Martin.

Last night I was reading over WS threads and looked at Noreen's websites. I will never criticize Noreen no matter what people think of her now. Her son is missing and she has done a great deal to help focus attention on missing children. I know Gene's family did not have the resources or the support necessary to find their son. I think it's one of the reasons I can't forget Gene. He still needs to be found.

That being said, I do find it difficult to believe in the great conspiracy which Noreen believes is responsible for her son's disappearance. Such a conspiracy is possible, but not probable in my opinion. However, I do believe it's possible "pedo-rings" exist, that some children may be targeted and sold to the highest bidder. Again, I don't think these types of groups are common or are even necessarily large. I just think it's worth considering the possibility. What did we know about human trafficking 20 or 30 years ago compared to what we read now?

My other theory would be a serial killer. I believe Marc Allen's disappearance in 1986 (?) could be connected to Johnny & Gene's abductor. I think there is even less known about Marc than Gene. So where did this mystery abductor/killer go after 1984 or 1986? Possibly incarcerated, deceased or moved out of state? I think it's worth looking around the country for any similar abuctions in the 80's. It's very frustrating trying to find information about missing teenagers as so many are believed to be runaways. Maybe most are, but that leaves a small number we just dont' know about.

A few things really disturbed me about Noreen's web site. One was the sketch of 'Tony' the man with long, dirty blonde hair and the pock-marked face. The sketches posted on Noreen's site are the same ones which were made after the Michaela Garecht (sp?) kidnapping. From what I've read, there are no sketches of Johnny's or Gene's abductor(s). I know Noreen believes 'Tony' is responsible for Michaela's & Johnny's abductions but I don't have enough information to make that connection. I think it's a very large stretch.

The numerous pictures of tied up boys (which Noreen says were sent to her) are also very disturbing. I know she believes some of them are Johnny. She's even said that photo analysis has proven it is indeed him. I'd like to know if this is an accurate statement. Perhaps photo analysis indicated it was "possibly" Johnny, not definitively. I know there are also claims at least some of the photos have been altered. Still, I can't discredit them all completely.

I've never forgotten the photo of the teenage girl and the young boy found in a parking lot in Florida. They were both bound and gagged in the back of a van. There was much speculation the girl was Tara Calico but the boy was unidentified. (There is a thread on WS for her) As far as I know, nothing has been proven one way or the other about these photos.

Sorry for the lengthy post. And I've only begun to read about Ted Gunderson's (retired FBI) involvement. I realize those who have followed these threads longer than I have, probably already discussed all these topics. I just wanted to toss in my 2 cents. I hope we can begin a new discussion. There are so many twists and turns and dead ends to follow here. Despite how bizarre some claims are, there may be some partial truths buried within them. I'll keep reading the threads.
 
My other theory would be a serial killer. I believe Marc Allen's disappearance in 1986 (?) could be connected to Johnny & Gene's abductor. I think there is even less known about Marc than Gene. So where did this mystery abductor/killer go after 1984 or 1986? Possibly incarcerated, deceased or moved out of state? I think it's worth looking around the country for any similar abuctions in the 80's. It's very frustrating trying to find information about missing teenagers as so many are believed to be runaways. Maybe most are, but that leaves a small number we just dont' know about.

I'll tell you something strange. I've lived in Des Moines my whole life and have never heard of Marc Allen until the Nancy Grace special on the missing did a profile on Johnny and mentioned Eugene and Marc. And I am one of those nosy types who have read and devoured everything I could find on the missing paperboys from my city. And most people that I talk to don't remember when he went missing either. It was not ever publicized.

"Tony" is a sketch that I remember from the Unsolved Mysteries piece that they did about this. And since then this same exact sketch has been linked to other missing kids around that time. Kids seemingly having nothing to do with Johnny or Eugene.

Noreen's website is enough to give you nightmares isn't it? Especially if ANY of it is true. I'm not convinced that the bound boys were Johnny but who knows? Someone said earlier that it seems like someone goes to a lot of trouble to mess with Noreen and that is sad...and sick. I said earlier I think Johnny is still alive. I believe the pedo ring story. I think he grew up around it and now he has it all over him and that's why he can't reveal himself. And yes, people have called me delusional.
 
My belief is that the theory that there was a serial killer targeting paperboys around 12 - 15ys old is the most likely but I think it may have started much earlier then John, Eugene, and Marc... I think these boys were some of the last few children in this killer’s past to be abducted. My guess would be it started round the early 50s and ended late 80s early 90s. Do I believe this person worked alone, no because to subdue a 12 – 15 yr old boy you would need strength and to be able to get away quick, one person would most likely be driving and one would be subduing the boy and keeping him concealed in the car… on another note I'm really not sure how anyone can doubt that pedophile rings are real. Here’s a scary read:

http://droitfondamental.eu/000-dossiers.htm

I also believe that Noreen maybe in the middle of someone’s sick game… it makes me think of someone like Timothy Binder… I’m not saying Timothy Binder has anything at all to do with the these boys cases I just think the person messing with Noreen may have a similar personality and wants some of the attention that is given to Noreen. (On a side note Timothy Binder is connected to the Micheala Garecht for playing mind games with victim’s loved ones and Law enforcement)

Micheala Garecht link:
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/g/garecht_michaela.html
 
I don't think anybody really doubts that paedophile rings are real, its common knowledge that they exist. The skeptics on the subject of the Franklin conspiracy are not doubting paedophile rings, just skeptical of this particular conspiracy theory about Johnny Gosch.

Like you said, its most likely a serial killer, possibly with an accomplice. The likes of Ted Gunderson et al are just messing with Noreen's head to get their 15 minutes.
 
Thank you all for your comments.

ILC, that's really interesting to me you had not heard of Marc Allen. I think I heard about him around the time he disappeared. I wonder if the police simply wrote him off as a runaway at the time? I'm not great at researching on the net but I doubt I could find the original news articles anyway.

I just don't know what to make of Noreen's websites. I'm sure she believes it. So many people would have to be involved to keep it all quiet ... it stretches the bounds or reason for me to buy into all of it. Still, there be some truth hidden there, I just dont' know.

Deeds, you made a very good point and I don't know why I hadn't considered it. I was just assuming these abductions began with Johnny & Eugene. You're absolutely right, they may have been at the end of a cycle. The lack of evidence in Johnny's & Eugene's cases does make it likely IMO, the perps knew what they were doing and acted in a methodical, practiced way.

Capp, could you elaborate on your theory about how a serial killer could be responsible for these missing boys? I don't doubt it, I'm just trying to get some ideas out there so we can look at where we can go next with it.

I have to say while I am always supportive of LE's efforts, I think it's not only possible, but even likely, things got messed up in Johnny's & Eugene's investigations. I just dont' think local LE had the experience dealing with such crimes. I understand the FBI was involved (at least at one point).

These cases also remind me of Jacob Wetterling's kidnapping. No trace of any of these boys have ever been found. A pedophile ring would want to cover their tracks carefully, correct? Don't serial killers usually want some recognition? If the boys were killed, why haven't their remains ever turned up?

I only have more questions, not answers. I really appreciate everyone putting in their ideas. So I'll just keep reading.
 
Thank you all for your intelligent comments on this...

Deeds: I'm with Mandy, I always thought that Johnny and Eugene were among the first. But what you say makes a lot more sense especially with all the alleged key players being elderly by now.

Maybe I'm a naive Pollyanna Iowan but I just can't wrap my mind around a serial killer. But that's just me. You all have read my posts and you know most of what I say is based on my own opinions and gut instincts. And that's all I'm going on. I too, am not very good at internet research. Not like what I've seen here from some of the members...WOW...

I love reading these old cases and I love everyone's theories.
 
These cases also remind me of Jacob Wetterling's kidnapping. No trace of any of these boys have ever been found. A pedophile ring would want to cover their tracks carefully, correct? Don't serial killers usually want some recognition? If the boys were killed, why haven't their remains ever turned up?

Another good theory I had never thought of. A lot of people claimed knowledge over the years but no one has ever tried to take credit for it. Good thinking, Mandy!!!
 
Capp, could you elaborate on your theory about how a serial killer could be responsible for these missing boys? I don't doubt it, I'm just trying to get some ideas out there so we can look at where we can go next with it.

What's making me think serial killer is the similarity of the three boys who all disappeared in the same area, with a cooling off period between each disappearance. If this was a paedophile ring - especially one with the far reaching power described by the Franklin conspiracists - they wouldn't be committing the same crime over and over in the same small area. I hate to say it, but the West Des Moines police, with their willingness to dismiss missing children as runaways, probably helped to mark out boys in that area as a soft target for a serial killer.

I also agree with the poster who said that Johnny Gosch wasn't the first victim. For someone to snatch a boy who was fairly well built for his age, and in the company of a dog, is quite bold, even if he had an accomplice. That suggests he/they had practice.

I have to disagree with the posters who say serial killers want recognition. There is certainly a serial killer of that type, but not all of them are like that. Look at Peter Sutcliffe for example - when a hoaxter started sending letters and tapes to the police pretending to be him, Sutcliffe was delighted because it threw the police off his track and allowed him to quietly carry on killing. Some like notoriety, but some like anonymity. If Johnny Gosch's killer is still out there somewhere, he is probably similarly delighted by all the wild conspiracy theories diverting attention from him. He's hopefully dead himself at this stage though, and if you'll forgive me being nasty, I hope he died slowly and painfully.
 
Excellant points again ILC & Capp. I don't have a great deal of info on serial killers but no doubt, there would be different types. I believe Johnny & Eugene are surely connected. The location, his age and the approx 2 year period between the abductions also makes Marc Allen's disappearance to likely be connected as well. In my mind these boys weren't just snatched up randomly. It does seem to me they were chosen, for whatever reason, and then watched until the ideal opportunity presented itself.

It's always bothered me that no bodies ever turned up. I've spent a fair amount of time reviewing the cases of unidentified victims on The Doe Network website. It's shocking to me so many people can not be identified. They range in age from infants to the elderly, from all over the country. If Johnny's remains had been found, due to the publicity, the odds are he would have been identified. However, with so little information out there about Eugene & Marc, I wonder if they could have been found & the identification missed.

I think Deeds is on the right track looking at some of these older cases. FWIW, as I was looking though the Doe files today of unidentifeds, one was noted to likely be a victim of serial kiler Henry Lee Lucas. She was abducted in Michigan and her remains were found in Maryland. It may be a good idea to widen the geographal areas and the timeline when looking for similarites.

JMO
 
I personally have always felt it was a cop in the West De Moins Police department. The one place where No one was looking!

Just my opinion, but its what I have always felt.
 
That may explain why the local police dismissed two of the three victims as runaways. That could just be police incompetence, or it could be that there was a trusted officer in their midst deliberately feeding them that opinion. Also, someone with experience in LE would be better able to succesfully hide bodies.

An authority figure would also be easily able to get someone into their car without any need for an accomplice, he could just order them into the car and if he was a policeman most teenage boys would do as they're told.
 
I agree and they could also tell a kid to shut his dog up if it started barking....and he would!

it takes the fear factor out of it to......hey its a trusted law officer, so no need to scream for help!
 
True. And let's not forget that Johnny Gosch was in the middle of an act of flagrant disobedience - he'd been told NOT to go out delivering papers without his father, and then left the house without waking him. If Mandy is right and this psycho was stalking his victims for a while before hand he would have known that this was a break with normal routine. It would be easy for a police officer to use the boy's disobedience against him to gain a psychological advantage - eg, you're in trouble, get in the car, your parents want your *advertiser censored* home right now.
 

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