ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 64

[Boxer]

Didn't the FBI deny it, IIRC? That right there makes me think it was planned.

MOO the FBI surveillance was likely need to know. Tipping a subject off is a problem. Could kill hostages etc.
Highly doubt hey jeopardized their surveillance and arrest.

 

[CLGM]

Finally having a chance to catch up on Thursday’s court appearance. I was pretty caught up reading on the threads up until Thursday. Did we anticipate that BK would waive his right to a speedy prelim hearing? Is that common? And even if so, is seems unusual that the defendant asks for it it to be set in six months, especially when they are being held without bond? He basically agreed to hang out in Latah County Jail for the next six months (with some of these guys: Latah County | Jail Roster). Why would somebody so (seemingly) focused on his education and future career, agree that his best course of action was just to sit tight in a jail cell? Would it be because his attorney is assessing the case as it stands and knows that strategically the only way they stand a chance is to slow everything down. It gives them time to look at every single piece of evidence from all different directions, to develop their own evidence. It’s likely they won’t prevent it from being bound over to the district court, but they will have made progress towards a defense. IMHO only.

Another question for attorneys (looking your way @Alethea ) - I was surprised a bit about how public Taylor’s visit was to the scene — that she didn’t try to do it in such a way as to avoid being photographed — maybe she could have had the investigators be the ones to stand outside the house to take pictures, but she would not be outside with them. In a case like this effective counsel wouldn’t necessary include public posturing to humanize the client — not that that’s what she was doing necessarily. I don’t know. I know that I wouldn’t have wanted to be out there If I were her.

(Any statements above are MOO IMHO only! Trained as a lawyer, worked as a (non-criminal) lawyer for several years, worked at a law school for a bunch of years. That plus following various newsworthy crimes and watching a lot of Scandinoire TV and Brit murder mysteries during the pandemic is the sum total of my legal knowledge. )

(edited to correct spelling of @Alethea‘s name)

 

[Boxer]

If BK observed this house on multiple occasions, why did he only kill the people in 1 bedroom on the 2nd floor, skip the second bedroom and then move to the 3rd floor. Why not kill the people in both rooms on the 2nd floor? Did he have a reason to spare DM’s life?

He had a target. Everyone else was collateral damage getting out.

 

[Boxer]

Finally having a chance to catch up on Thursday’s court appearance. I was pretty caught up reading on the threads up until Thursday. Did we anticipate that BK would waive his right to a speedy prelim hearing? Is that common? And even if so, is seems unusual that the defendant asks for it it to be set in six months, especially when they are being held without bond? He basically agreed to hang out in Latah County Jail for the next six months (with some of these guys: Latah County | Jail Roster). Why would somebody so (seemingly) focused on his education and future career, agree that his best course of action was just to sit tight in a jail cell? Would it be because his attorney is assessing the case as it stands and knows that strategically the only way they stand a chance is to slow everything down. It gives them time to look at every single piece of evidence from all different directions, to develop their own evidence. It’s likely they won’t prevent it from being bound over to the district court, but they will have made progress towards a defense. IMHO only.

Another question for attorneys (looking your way @althea ) - I was surprised a bit about how public Taylor’s visit was to the scene — that she didn’t try to do it in such a way as to avoid being photographed — maybe she could have had the investigators be the ones to stand outside the house to take pictures, but she would not be outside with them. In a case like this effective counsel wouldn’t necessary include public posturing to humanize the client — not that that’s what she was doing necessarily. I don’t know. I know that I wouldn’t have wanted to be out there If I were her.

(Any statements above are MOO IMHO only! Trained as a lawyer, worked as a (non-criminal) lawyer for several years, worked at a law school for a bunch of years. That plus following various newsworthy crimes and watching a lot of Scandinoire TV and Brit murder mysteries during the pandemic is the sum total of my legal knowledge. )

He is giving his attorney time to make his defense which is hard with the evidence they have.
Also jail is preferable to prison so longer there is part of the goal.

 

[ilovewings]

I wouldn’t necessarily use these words but I think many attorneys would say a case was “solid” if there was evidence for each element of the crime and no real basis for reasonable doubt. For example, the crime was captured on CCTV and the defendant could be identified in the video along with DNA and fingerprint evidence. Pretty solid - like a solid cube with no missing pieces or dents or holes.

A case can be strong if there’s substantial evidence but maybe a few things that the defense could challenge.

FWIW I don’t think it’s really useful to try to categorize cases since each one is different but that would be the difference to me hearing this. If someone said solid, I’d think “slam dunk.” If someone said strong, I’d think lots of evidence but not necessarily a slam-dunk.

not many murder cases are slam dunks--

 

[Cool Cats]

What puzzles me is that BK has the right to plead guilty. Right? He can just stand up and say, "Yep, I did everything I'm accused of, I plead guilty."

But, AFAIK, he cannot get the DP without a trial, so even if he did admit guilt, he would still have to have a trial? I have no real clue, just spitballing, but your post made me think of that.


Pretty sure you can watch it on Peacock TV. I can't remember if the app costs anything or not.

(Just checked - they definitely have it on their website, I just can't remember if I paid anything to join, I don't think so).

A death penalty qualified attorney's number one job is to keep their client off of death row. No defense attorney who wants to keep practicing would allow their death penalty client to plead guilty to murder without a plea deal in place that drops the death penalty.

If BK is charged with death specifications and wants to plead guilty, his attorney will work with prosecutors on a plea deal to drop the death penalty.

If prosecutors refused to drop the DP because it is what the families want, then BK could plead guilty and go straight to the Penalty Phase Trial. This is where the prosecution argues for the DP and the defense presents mitigating factors to get LWOP for the defendant.

Capital Cases have 2 trials The Guilt Phase Trial and then a separate Penalty Phase Trial.

A Plea of 'Guilty' — Danny Rolling, the Gainesville Ripper — Crime Library

Danny Rolling, Daniel Rolling, Gainesville Ripper killed four women and two men in one weekend of horror in the University town of Gainesville.

www.crimelibrary.org

Everyone on death row has been through a Penalty Phase trial.

 

[CLGM]

He is giving his attorney time to make his defense which is hard with the evidence they have.
Also jail is preferable to prison so longer there is part of the goal.

So after a plea is entered, he would be moved to prison to await trial?

 

[Friday Fan]

What puzzles me is that BK has the right to plead guilty. Right? He can just stand up and say, "Yep, I did everything I'm accused of, I plead guilty."

But, AFAIK, he cannot get the DP without a trial, so even if he did admit guilt, he would still have to have a trial? I have no real clue, just spitballing, but your post made me think of that.


Pretty sure you can watch it on Peacock TV. I can't remember if the app costs anything or not.

(Just checked - they definitely have it on their website, I just can't remember if I paid anything to join, I don't think so).

He could plead guilty simply to avoid a trial. This would be different than a plea deal. The penalty phase is separate.


However, I doubt he will do this. I think he wants "the excitement" of a trial.

 

[CGray123]

Right. The only way she (DM) can be questioned by the defense is in a deposition where the prosecution and her own attorney are there with her and can control the questioning, stopping certain questions.

And of course she can be cross examined on the stand by the defense.

What Is a Deposition? - Legal Process Breakdown

A deposition is a court-mandated testimony during the discovery phase. Those served with a subpoena must provide it. ✓ Learn more with Valiente Mott!

valientemott.com

The Idaho victim rights statute gives crime victims an explicit right to refuse to provide interviews to defense investigators. I'm not sure DM qualifies as a victim under the statute, but in most jurisdictions even ordinary witnesses are not obliged to talk to anyone unless and until they are compelled by court order (subpoena) to testify.

However, witnesses can give interviews to defense investigators voluntarily. Be assured, the PD's investigators will ask.

 

[Nila Aella]

A death penalty qualified attorney's number one job is to keep their client off of death row. No defense attorney who wants to keep practicing would allow their death penalty client to plead guilty to murder without a plea deal in place that drops the death penalty.

If BK is charged with death specifications and wants to plead guilty, his attorney will work with prosecutors on a plea deal to drop the death penalty.

If BK said he wanted to plead guilty refusing a plea to get the DP dropped then I don't think the judge would even allow it. The judge would send him to a mental ward to be evaluated.

Danny Rolling pled guilty to avoid a trial. He did so with the death penalty on the table.

I don't think BK will plead guilty. I believe he wants to be exonerated. JMO

A Plea of 'Guilty' — Danny Rolling, the Gainesville Ripper — Crime Library

Danny Rolling, Daniel Rolling, Gainesville Ripper killed four women and two men in one weekend of horror in the University town of Gainesville.

www.crimelibrary.org

 

[10ofRods]

According to this he could have got a tuition waiver? I dunno where I dreamed up the free housing lol.

Ph.D. Students​

Departmental Funding: Students funded by the department with a Teaching Assistantships (TA) or Research Assistantships (RA) receive a specified stipend each month (for nine months), health insurance benefits, and an in-state tuition waiver (for WA state residents). Out-of-state tuition is waived the first year until the student establishes residency.

Funding | Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology | Washington State University

crmj.wsu.edu

So, that says he pays 50% of in-state tuition in that program. The WA state residents get a full waiver (he's not one, and likely never will be at this point). He did get to pay In-state tuition (half of it, which is about $6200 and I think that's a significant amount of money for a 28 year old to come up with).

No free housing, but low cost housing, as I understand it. No word on how much a TA is paid, but I suspect I can find it somewhere in WSU's various documents (board of trustees budget preparation, but I'm feeling too lazy to find out). I'm guessing it's $800 a month or thereabouts - probably just about enough to cover the housing, but not car and food expenses.

 

[sripey]

Who were Dateline's "LE sources"? Did they say?

Because they were onto the Elantra very early on and already had BK's name from the WSU campus police. I can understand why LE would wait to dig through PA trash, because they surely needed to advise and work out a plan with local LE there.

Who was it that confirmed use of GedMatch? That's my real question, because Dateline is the first MSM source to confirm it. Nancy Grace merely said "probably" and all the other mentions of GedMatch were by LE retirees or otherwise ex-FBI or ex-Cia or ex-something else.

It's not in any LE announcement that I can find.

They didn't give specifics @10ofRods , just the usual "law enforcement sources", so make of it what you will. Personally, I think with their years of experience Dateline probably has reliable sources, but that's just my opinion.

According to Dateline, BK's Elantra was in a pile of dozens or hundreds of other Elantras until the genetic genealogy hit. The hit lead to a review of traffic footage in Pullman (the footage that led to a reevaluation of the Elantra's model year) and then BK's phone records.

 

[QB2022]

The prosecution unveiled the protection DM had, by putting her in the PCA. She could have been a surprise witness used only if needed during trial, but they did not make that choice. I wonder why?

Was the PCA not strong enough without her eye witness of his height, build, and bushy eyebrows at that time of the morning?
Were PD all over the area given the physical description DM gave them, and tasked with connected that description to a white Elantra?
If so, it was DM’s description that made WSU red flag BK, with the bodycam from his Oct stop in Pullman.

She also heard his voice, or at least a male voice.
Yes it could have been someone else, but her description is compelling and also lines up with the shoe print on the floor.

I don’t think BK’s legal team would necessarily put her on. I do think BK would put her on just to be entertained by the fear he saw


JMO

I wonder if BF hasn't been mentioned yet for this reason.. protect her from the world until she's needed in trial

 

[Cool Cats]

Danny Rolling pled guilty to avoid a trial. He did so with the death penalty on the table.

I don't think BK will plead guilty. I believe he wants to be exonerated. JMO

A Plea of 'Guilty' — Danny Rolling, the Gainesville Ripper — Crime Library

Danny Rolling, Daniel Rolling, Gainesville Ripper killed four women and two men in one weekend of horror in the University town of Gainesville.

www.crimelibrary.org

Thanks, I will edit my post to include this.

 

[10ofRods]

A death penalty qualified attorney's number one job is to keep their client off of death row. No defense attorney who wants to keep practicing would allow their death penalty client to plead guilty to murder without a plea deal in place that drops the death penalty.

If BK is charged with death specifications and wants to plead guilty, his attorney will work with prosecutors on a plea deal to drop the death penalty.

If prosecutors refused to drop the DP because it is what the families want, then there would have to be 2 trials. The guilt phase trial then the penalty phase trial.

To get the DP the prosecution has to prove with a trial the defendant is guilty. Then if found guilty, the prosecution argues for death in the penalty phase trial and the defense presents mitigating factors to try to get LWOP for their client.

From my research but consider opinion until I find the right links.

Thank you! I thought Idaho had a two phase trial system anyway, but certainly do not know for sure.

I understand that the DP cannot be given without a trial. But if the DA and the families want the DP, then aren't you basically indicating that he has to go to trial? He cannot plead guilty to a DP case? It would indeed have to be bargained.

I am now thinking he's sure to go to trial, although I suppose as more evidence comes in, his attorney may work to negotiate a plea deal. I think all the families would have to agree? Or is that wrong?

 

[ktm44]

as I understood it the 911 call for for a roommate who was "unconscious". If that is the case that was the initial impression until they started looking around and others got there. Apparently one roommate passed out..at this point neighbors involved. That whole story has not been told in detail and hopefully will not until trial.

That has never been clarified by LE or the 911 dispatcher.

 

[Curiosa20]

IMO, maybe there was a second intruder in the house on the third floor? Actually, I was trying to find a plausible reason for the “ thud” mentioned in the PCA

I have trouble piecing together the “someone’s in here”, thud, crying, whimpering and I will help you with that, but would not include a second person.
I’ve wondered if Kaylee had gotten up for Murohy, or bathroom, and heard or saw the suspect in the hall or coming up stairs. He took or ushered Murphy into her bedroom and towered over her with knife drawn as he led her back into Maddy’s room saying I’ll help you… creepy scary shocking psycho… Or he had been in that room while Kaylee had gone into hers to check out noise and Murphy. . Or maybe she had picked up a heavy object to whack him with and was forced into Maddy’s where she attempted to defend herself. A fatal stab or two of both would have been instantaneous. The thud come have been her dropping an object or a car door, trunk being slammed.
What I can’t imagine is DM not hearing anything from X and E’s room. BF may have but since she didn’t see him her statement would not be included in the PCA.JMO
I am waiting for surgery and not at the top of my memory or theory game. Or spell check lol.

 

[10ofRods]

They didn't give specifics @10ofRods , just the usual "law enforcement sources", so make of it what you will. Personally, I think with their years of experience Dateline probably has reliable sources, but that's just my opinion.

According to Dateline, BK's Elantra was in a pile of dozens or hundreds of other Elantras until the genetic genealogy hit. The hit lead to a review of traffic footage in Pullman (the footage that led to a reevaluation of the Elantra's model year) and then BK's phone records.

Hmm. Well, according to a news article about the locating of the Elantra, it was two WSU campus police who, after receiving word early on (Day 2 or 3, just after the early video was looked at by Moscow PD) located all the Elantras at WSU (one of which was from PA and would not have had a front license plate and belonged to...a criminology student, which must have caught their eye).

The white sedan: How police found the man accused of slaying four Idaho students

The white sedan cruised past the gray, three-story rental home on a dead-end street in Moscow, Idaho. Then again. And again.

komonews.com

With little else to go on as a panicked community demanded answers, investigators canvassed security footage from the neighborhood — including one recording of the car speeding away after the slayings — to get a sense of the killer's possible movements, the affidavit said.

And the article continues:

On Nov. 25, the Moscow Police Department asked regional law enforcement to look for a white Elantra. Three nights later, a WSU police officer ran a query for any white Elantras on campus.

At that point, they did have BK's own Elantra on their radar. I think as the video continued to come in, they were more and more sure it was BK's ELantra, registered to his name at WSU.

Of course they needed the genetic genealogy as well (whatever sort they used), but I now understand the twinkle in Chief Fry's eye when their suspect grad student appeared as a match.

The fact that this criminology grad student (yesterday's article by the criminology prof explains why) had just changed plates must have made him suspicious. At any rate I believe they had him under surveillance since about Nov 29.

One came back as having a Pennsylvania license plate and being registered to Kohberger. Within half an hour, another campus officer located the vehicle parked at Kohberger's apartment complex. It came back as having Washington state tags. Five days after the killings, Kohberger had switched the registration from Pennsylvania, his home state, to Washington, the affidavit said.

These are events that were unfolding in real time, isolating BK as a promising POI, so they already had him on their radar before he left town.

 

[Allabouttrial]

Lol!

Me too. May I’m the co- conspirator???

Just kidding.

MOO

Nope you were definitely the originator of that particular insight but as they've caught the killer I will overlook your possible involvement.

 

[Cool Cats]

Thank you! I thought Idaho had a two phase trial system anyway, but certainly do not know for sure.

I understand that the DP cannot be given without a trial. But if the DA and the families want the DP, then aren't you basically indicating that he has to go to trial? He cannot plead guilty to a DP case? It would indeed have to be bargained.

I am now thinking he's sure to go to trial, although I suppose as more evidence comes in, his attorney may work to negotiate a plea deal. I think all the families would have to agree? Or is that wrong?

I updated my post:

A death penalty qualified attorney's number one job is to keep their client off of death row. No defense attorney who wants to keep practicing would allow their death penalty client to plead guilty to murder without a plea deal in place that drops the death penalty.

If BK is charged with death specifications and wants to plead guilty, his attorney will work with prosecutors on a plea deal to drop the death penalty.

If prosecutors refused to drop the DP because it is what the families want, then BK could plead guilty and go straight to the Penalty Phase Trial. This is where the prosecution argues for the DP and the defense presents mitigating factors to get LWOP for the defendant.

Capital Cases have 2 trials The Guilt Phase Trial and then a separate Penalty Phase Trial.

Everyone on death row has been through a Penalty Phase Trial.

A Plea of 'Guilty' — Danny Rolling, the Gainesville Ripper — Crime Library

Danny Rolling, Daniel Rolling, Gainesville Ripper killed four women and two men in one weekend of horror in the University town of Gainesville.

www.crimelibrary.org