ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 46

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I am surprised to see the curiosity-seeking volunteer DNA database population suddenly turn into a crime investigation tool. I'm curious whether this is the first time genealogy has been used to trace DNA as soon as it is collected from a crime scene. We first heard about this investigative tool through cold case investigations.

I'm curious whether DNA Database comparison will eventually become the first tool used by investigators in solving crimes: check DNA to find relatives and narrow down suspect. Dystopia, utopia?

I am not. Initially, Gedmatch was made to broaden the comparison database. Say, in 2014 or 2015 when I ordered the first boxes, Ancestry and 23@me were equally popular. FTDNA was comparable, too. So after getting the comparison base via 23@me, of course everyone would upload DNA into Gedmatch because it showed not only "M" (23@me) matches, but also "A" (Ancestry) and "T" (FTDNA). It was free; for $10 a month, it had tons of additional cool things (such as "Lazarus, an option to reconstruct your deceased relative's DNA if you have enough of his brothers' and sisters' ones). It was darn cool.

Today, genealogy market is saturated for Western Europeans. They say, now they can tell you with certitude, whether your ancestors were from Cork, Suffolk or Yorkshire. Basically, anyone has some relatives in Gedmatch. It is not so good for other groups, but probably all Plymouth Rock colony has been represented there. People are slightly tired of genealogy, and the Gedmatch base is huge. So use of a DNA base in criminology is a predictable step.

I don't think it is even for long, because science develops so rapidly. Ten years from now, probably, there will be no need in such comparison, and something else will be used.
 
Totally disagree. If there had been any significant claw or scratch mark, it would not look like there had been no evidence of it at all 5 weeks ago. Something would still be apparent.
It is nearly 7 weeks. By the time they took this booking shot, he had already been through forensic processing. So late on the 30th. 47 days is 12 more days than 5 weeks. MOO
 
AFAIK, needles are only used for heroin...right? She said they got needles for what he claimed was his aunt's diabetes or something.
Who is “they”? Is someone saying publicly that they actually did heroin with him?
People shoot pretty much any psychoactive drug except pot. If one could shoot pot, people who like to shoot up would be shooting it. Shooting up in itself is kind of an addiction. Jmo
Some pharmaceuticals were reformulated to gel up when mixed with water in order to prevent people from shooting and snorting them.
Meth can be snorted, smoked, eaten, put in drinks, and definitely shot up. As can cocaine. People even shoot up LSD.
Not every heroin addict shoots up. Heroin can be snorted or smoked too, one of his friends said he told her he was “chasing the dragon”, (jmo as I can’t find the link now), which often consists of putting it on aluminum foil, putting a flame underneath and taking in the smoke with a straw, no obvious drug paraphernalia is required and no abscessed needle marks to send one to the hospital, which can make it seem more acceptable in the minds of suburban kids in gated communities.
There’s a documentary series called “Intervention” which pretty much shows it all.
 
Despite hearing the history of addiction from Ms A, I'm still struggling with the fact it was heroin. 'Guess it doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things.

JMO

Usually people who have the tendency to be addicted to opiates get energized, excited and euphoric from them. This response is definitely not typical for everyone. JMO, nausea and drowsiness are more common. But as I read somewhere, opiates are typical drugs of choice for business people, because no one notices their addiction till it is too late. Alcoholic has hangovers and smells, meth user gets infections, cocaine user might be functional but prone to early strokes/heart attacks. With opiates, no one might see the problem unless life is shattered. There is a genetic predisposition to opiates. Possibly, warrior ancestors of today's junkies, when injured, high on own endorphins or enkephalins, were the first to recover. (MOO). But today, with abundance of heroin around, their descendants are doomed. From what addicts explained, some mix heroin with meth; I don't know whether one is the main drug and the other offsets some side effects, but assume it is not uncommon.
 
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Personally I am holding off with judging BK or making too many comments until we see the PCA. Police have said that they have his DNA at the scene and he owns a car seen near the crime scene. I want to know details. I saw a discussion here earlier today about him possibly being an uber eats driver. Frankly, his DNA presence in this case is not very compelling to me. College towns, lots of innocent possibilities. And driving near a crime scene? I've done that many times.

I'm not defending BK. I'm just saying that jumping on the dogpile when we know nothing but one police chief's vague description of the evidence is not very compelling. There is a reason our system requires transparency.

We have to use common sense. THERE IS NO WAY they stake this guy out across the country and arrest him and extradite him back to Idaho UNLESS they had blood DNA that ties him to the crime scene.

If there was any other kind of DNA, saliva, hair, urine whatever, anything other than blood, they'd probably ask anybody to vouch for whether he'd ever possibly be at that house and if everybody said they didn't know him, the very least they'd do is execute a search warrant at his apartment, car and house in pennsylvania before possibly arresting him if they found anything incriminating.

They straight up arrested the dude. Believe you me....there's blood evidence with his DNA.
 
Personally I am holding off with judging BK or making too many comments until we see the PCA. Police have said that they have his DNA at the scene and he owns a car seen near the crime scene. I want to know details. I saw a discussion here earlier today about him possibly being an uber eats driver. Frankly, his DNA presence in this case is not very compelling to me. College towns, lots of innocent possibilities. And driving near a crime scene? I've done that many times.

I'm not defending BK. I'm just saying that jumping on the dogpile when we know nothing but one police chief's vague description of the evidence is not very compelling. There is a reason our system requires transparency.
A law enforcement rush to judgment may be the defense the suspect in this case uses. Force a speedy trial and hope for major mistakes by the State. JMO.
 
I am inclined to agree with you about meth being the more likely the drug he did - IF he indeed was a user or addict of an illicit drug - for the exact reasons you pointed out. JMO

I have not seen anything about him ever going to rehab, which also makes me suspicious because coming down from heroin in an extremely horrible thing to go through, and the withdrawals amplify it times 10. I've never done heroin but I have seen what happens when users stop using, and I just can't see BK doing and going thru that on his own.
I'm not sure if this has been posted already, but gives good insight into how someone can function on heroin. Inside the secret lives of functioning heroin addicts | CNN
It can sometimes be easy to picture a drug user in the severe range but often they aren't (heroin or other drugs).

And this is interesting in relation to his perceived energy levels:

Kohberger’s behaviour noticeably changed after the murders of four University of Idaho students, a former classmate has revealed — describing how he went from “perpetually exhausted” to “chattier.”

Benjamin Roberts, a fellow doctoral student at Washington State University, said accused killer Bryan Kohberger became “chattier” after the murders of four University of Idaho students.

“I did notice he was showing up to class a little late sometimes, he always had a coffee in hand, he always seemed to be just perpetually exhausted,” Benjamin Roberts, a fellow grad student at Washington State University in Pullman, told NewsNation.

“Bryan seemed like he was on the knife’s edge between exhaustion and worn out and at the time it was extremely difficult to tell which was which,” he told the outlet.

BBM
 
I'd like to get some of your thoughts on this.

So, i'm a movie guy. I've watched some of the great actors. Nicholson, De Niro, Hoffman, Brando, Betty Davis etc.

It's been said that an actor can be so intertwined with their character that they become that character and are locked in with the thoughts, mood, personality and disposition of the character they are portraying. It can take it's toll if the character is very complex and certainly if it's a very depressing, moody character. Now what if this guy Bryan had some kind of psychopath disposition but as a student in criminology was so in tune with thinking the way a homicidal criminal thinks that he became that homicidal criminal? Without the latter he would not be what he is today. Not all psychopaths are into criminology. Do you think he always thought about killing and naturally gravitated towards criminology because of that? Going to school for criminology almost implies that you're working to be on the right side of the law rather than the wrong side of it....I would think.

It's like, why go to school and spend all that time and effort just to throw it away killing people in the manner that he did?....unless the constant exposure to the criminal mind + the underlying psychopathy pushed him over the edge into the evil realm.

There's so many facts and info to be learned yet regarding the suspect and the question might be premature but just wondering if anybody had any thoughts on this.
That makes a lot of sense.
I've seen method actors work, they become the character constantly.
A vulnerable mind could easily identify with a killer and transference occur.

It may be what has happened here.
 
I don't think it is necessarily judging them, to discuss the potential evidence that LE allegedly reports having. Especially once we read the Probable Cause documents and Arrest Warrants and watch the initial hearings.

I am not judging him by acknowledging that he has the same kind of car that was seen on video leaving the scene of the crime that morning. Or discussing news reports that his DNA was allegedly found at the crime scene.
What I was initially responding to was someone stating what BK did and how he did it. It all came off like it was fact, since (1)there was no mention of it being a MOO and (2)was mixed in with some facts. I was simply trying to point out that there has not been any evidence presented yet to prove that BK actually did it.

I don't recall seeing anything from you that indicates any sort of judgement from you at all.
 
So will the affidavit be unsealed right after this court appearance?

Will we have access to the information right away?

No, not Tuesday, Jan 3, 2023, which is the detention hearing held in the Commonwealth of PA, Monroe County Court.

The affidavit can't be unsealed and/or released to the public until after the defendant is served and appears before the Idaho Magistrate in the 2nd Judicial District for the defendant's initial appearance.

The initial appearance is where the magistrate must advise the defendant, BK, of the following:

(1) the defendant is not required to make a statement and that any statement made may be used against the defendant;

(2) the nature of the charge or charges against the defendant;

(3) the defendant's right to bail;

(4) the defendant's right to counsel as provided by law;

(5) if in a county other than that in which the offense occurred, of the defendant's right to proceed under Rule 20 of these rules;

(6) if in the county in which the offense occurred, of defendant’s right to a preliminary hearing, if provided by law, the nature of a preliminary hearing, and the effect of a waiver of a preliminary hearing, and

(7) the defendant’s right to communicate with counsel and immediate family, and that reasonable means will be provided for the defendant to do so.

I.C.R. 5. Initial Appearance Before Magistrate - Advice To Defendant - Plea in Misdemeanors - Initial Appearance on Grand Jury Indictment. | Supreme Court
 
You know, it is slightly unusual. Gedmatch doesn't accept samples. And 23@me or any other private company have regulated procedures of collection, so a sample from the crime scene won't work for them. I remember with GSK case, the biggest problem was to present the samples they had in the format acceptable for Gedmatch. It took several months, because LE were doing it for the first time. So i can imagine FBI lab being able to process DNA, get the code, run it through CODIS, transfer into Gedmatch format and upload into Gedmatch to compare with opted-in samples. These are all computer programs based on initial labwork. What I can't understand is how an average LEO would do it all. And - it won't fly in court. In court, if they found a second cousin via Gedmatch, it has to be among opted-in matches, etc.
Also might depend on how many centimorgans they share and the largest portion shared on the different chromosomes.
 
Yes, fibers or other possibilities of something pertinent to the killer would be possible. But then the prosecution would also have to PRODUCE that source of whatever the DNA was from as well and showing it as an evidenciary exhibit to a jury. In the booking photo the entire body of Kohberger is not visibile either which could also show injury that we can't see in the booking photo. For example, his hands.

What my main point was, is that his face apears pristine under magnification and I contend there would still be some evidence (even though healed or nearly healed) that something had caused a recent mark or injury.

A face is a very vulnerable place to attack if you are in close combat. I believe it would be very likely the girls especially would be attempting to claw his face as they would be flailing around. There would be two purposes--- one of course, to try to deflect the knife, but two, also at the same time trying to injure him to stop the attack or at least cause him a problem that he now has of a possible serious injury to himself.
I think he wore a mask.

Totally guessing, aren’t we?
 
I'm not sure if this has been posted already, but gives good insight into how someone can function on heroin. Inside the secret lives of functioning heroin addicts | CNN
It can sometimes be easy to picture a drug user in the severe range but often they aren't (heroin or other drugs).

And this is interesting in relation to his perceived energy levels:

Kohberger’s behaviour noticeably changed after the murders of four University of Idaho students, a former classmate has revealed — describing how he went from “perpetually exhausted” to “chattier.”

Benjamin Roberts, a fellow doctoral student at Washington State University, said accused killer Bryan Kohberger became “chattier” after the murders of four University of Idaho students.

“I did notice he was showing up to class a little late sometimes, he always had a coffee in hand, he always seemed to be just perpetually exhausted,” Benjamin Roberts, a fellow grad student at Washington State University in Pullman, told NewsNation.

“Bryan seemed like he was on the knife’s edge between exhaustion and worn out and at the time it was extremely difficult to tell which was which,” he told the outlet.

BBM
Thanks for the links!

In addition to the change in his behavior after the murders, I found where it sounds like he started to let himself go, so-to-speak.

"Stinchfield described his behavior after the murders as "pre-occupied" and said he appeared less "well-kept" and had grown out his facial hair."

 
We have to use common sense. THERE IS NO WAY they stake this guy out across the country and arrest him and extradite him back to Idaho UNLESS they had blood DNA that ties him to the crime scene.

If there was any other kind of DNA, saliva, hair, urine whatever, anything other than blood, they'd probably ask anybody to vouch for whether he'd ever possibly be at that house and if everybody said they didn't know him, the very least they'd do is execute a search warrant at his apartment, car and house in pennsylvania before possibly arresting him if they found anything incriminating.

They straight up arrested the dude. Believe you me....there's blood evidence with his DNA.
Or semen, perhaps both.
 
Thanks for the links!

In addition to the change in his behavior after the murders, I found where it sounds like he started to let himself go, so-to-speak.

"Stinchfield described his behavior after the murders as "pre-occupied" and said he appeared less "well-kept" and had grown out his facial hair."

The talk about his use of heroin is from he was 16 years old. The article you link does not suggest addiction.
 
So I was flattered to see my theory copied and pasted to Instagram almost word for word. So I thought about it a little more...and decided to put together a quick timeline that helps bolster it. I'm going to distill my notes down to just a few key dates....I'm hesitant to dump the 12 pages I have. sorry for the hacky copy and paste job. I had better intentions. But it is what it is at this point.

For those that don't know about my theory it's that LE knew about Bryan as early as November 15th. And at that point they started investigating him while keeping an eye on others. Once they started getting pretty confident that they had their guy....they stalled until they could get DNA back. Eventually having to turn to Familial.


___________

11/13 - The 4 Students are killed and bodies are discovered around 12pm local time.
In later reporting the Captain of Moscow LE said that by the time he got to the scene on this day. Investigators had already identified cameras in the surrounding area and were procuring the video. This moved a lot more quickly than people originally assumed.

11/14 - The 4 Students are identified.

I'm a believer that they were able to immediately find video of the Elantra leaving the scene or close to it. I also believe that they immediately found the Elantra license plate on video away from the crime scene. And I'm going to stretch and say they likely found video of the Elantra in the area on the days preceding the murder. And this is what led them to believe that the crime was
targeted.

11/15 - Police make a seemingly controversial statement.

"The City of Moscow Police Department would like to address community concerns about public safety. We hear you, and we understand your fears. We want you to know that we, like you, have been devastated and distressed by these young lives that were cut short needlessly. We determined early in the investigation that we do not believe there is an ongoing threat for community members. Evidence indicates that this was a targeted attack.
At this time, we have shared every piece of information that we can without compromising the ongoing investigation."

So what made them so confident that this was a targeted attack that they would keep reiterating over and over again that it was? Read on...

11/16 - Video Press Conference
I invite everyone to watch this press conference and listen to what they are saying. Listen to the nuance in their words. It's clear that they think they know who did it but at this point all they had was video. That the person was out there but not a danger. There's more that's carefully crafted.

11/14-11/18 - WSU Midterms Week
Not sure what the requirements are for advanced degrees. But at most schools mid-term week is dedicated to midterms and professors who have a heart don’t hold classes. soon as you were done with your midterms you could leave for Thanksgiving break. I will be interesting to know when Bryan left town for Thanksgiving.

Was Bryan already back in WA? Taking a flight out on Sunday shortly after the murders? Is that why police were so confident that there was no danger before walking it back since it made no sense.

11/17 - FBI joins Investigation

At the time a lot of people wondered why the FBI joined this investigation so early. I now believe that it was a combination of things. Their suspect was likely on the East Coast and they had no clue when he was coming back. They likely had super early circumstantial evidence, video included, but couldn't place him at the scene. And they needed help processing DNA evidence.

Also worth noting that Captain Lanier later said (on 12/15) that they had already worked the local cameras and as soon as they got more resources (FBI) they expanded and canvased outward.

11/23 - LE reaffirms that this was targetted


11/28 - WSU is back in session and we assume Bryan is back in town at this point.

11/30 - Prosecutors vs LE confusion


12/1 - LE tripples down that this was targetted
If anyone doubts that LE has the perp casing the area or has other evidence...this should put it to rest.

12/2 - 12/3 - The house receives numerous visits from Detectives after a lull in activity.
Things are picking up again from here. On the 3rd they were seen taking out bags of evidence.

12/5 - LE decide to start removing the victims personal belongings. To happen on 12/7.
It's pretty clear that they are confident at this point. Again, the public interprets this as unusual because no suspect has been named.

12/6 - LE, through a press release requests surveillance video taken from 3am - 6am from a list of 4 geographical areas.
We know from reports that LE had already been looking at videos for over 3 weeks at this point.
They also went out of there way to confidently clear a bunch of people and get rumors under control. Which resulted in some ire from the internet, community and family. This is more evidence pointing to them having their guy.


I believe at this point they had DNA sent out to the lab and they were fairly confident that Bryan was their guy. I think the request for video could have had a much tighter window if they wanted it to. But they didn't want to show their cards. How many times did they tell us - send us all info. we know what we are looking for and we'll filter through it?

I also believe that LE needed video from these areas because they needed to show that the crime scene Elantra was the same Elantra heading back to Bryan's house or the Elantra in whatever picture of the license plate they had. Otherwise the defense team could easily cite the 22,0000 Elantras. The picture/video of the Elantra's license plate was pulled from a place that could only be accessed by going through THESE NEIGHBORHOODS

12/7 - LE announce the Elantra. And they'd like to talk to the occupants.
Bryan Entin reports that LE has stated that the license plate is "Unknown". The car is a 2011-2013.

I believe that LE knew it was a 2015. But didn't want to tip Bryan off that they might have been on to him. I think at this point they were pretty confident that he was their guy...but they had that pesky unresolved DNA kicking around. That likely had to go through a Familial search. The 2011-2013 and 2015 models are similar enough that it wouldn't hinder public tips.

I also think this was their way of asking about Bryan without saying Bryan's name. Hoping that someone he knew or lived with come forward.


He later updates his Tweet with a link to the press release that's solely focused on the Elantra.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say they were talking directly to Bryan through these words. Knowing who he was, what he was studying. They were hoping that he would come forward under the guise of helping and staying close to the investigation.

12/8 - Five Plain Clothed LE investigators show up to the crime scene. One of the 2 vehicles had a Washington plate.
This is my biggest indicator so far that this was the point where Bryan went from person of interest to suspect. And they brought in Washington investigators as their suspect lived in another state and they would likely have to arrest him there. They go in. Move around a bit. Come out an hour later. Empty handed. Make of this what you will

12/9 - The last day of instruction for the term
Mind you, this is the general calendar. I'm not sure if the PhD program operates on a different schedule or if Bryan had office hours of any sort.

If the FBI was planning on tracking someone across the country and coordinating it. This is the window of time where it would have needed to start happening.

The Cross Country Drive
This is where the timeline gets a little fuzzy as reporting is not really lining up. So we're going to guesstimate.

12/10 - 12/13 - Likely the Window Where Brian and his Dad set off on their cross country trip
This date is a window. It's essentially a 2 day drive . The last day of classes was on the 9th. If it's a 2 day drive we can assume that they left no later than the 13th as it would be almost impossible for them to be cited in PA a few days later.


12/12 - Statement from Captain Lanier + FBI
“We do have a lot of information. We are specifically keeping that information safe. We are not releasing specific details because we do not want to compromise this investigation. It is what we must do. We owe that to the families,”

"We want more than just an arrest. We want a conviction. We owe that justice to Xana, Kaylee, Madison, and Ethan"

– Moscow Police Capt. Roger Lanier.


12/12 - 12/15 - Likely the Window Where Brian and his Dad arrive.
This date is a window. It's a guesstimate based on what we know. If they left the day after classes ended and drove straight through they'd be there as early as the 12th. But we know they couldn't have arrived any later than the 15th.

12/15 - Brian Entin Reports the "22,000 Elantras" and another interesting tidbit

On this day a NewsNation report had an interview where Capt. Lainer where he said on the day of the crime Detectives had already located cameras on residences surrounding the crime scene. I whole heartedly believe that one of those cameras got them the Elantra (but no plate) and shortly thereafter an adjacent camera (as the team expanded their canvas) got them the license plate of the only Elantra heading out of the area.


I whole heartedly 100000000% believe that this 22,000 Elantra message was put out to put Bryan's mind at ease as he headed across the United States of America. That he would rest assured that 22,000 Elantras would take LE a long time to comb through and he could enjoy the Christmas Holiday with his family. Not only that....but LE had blundered (i believe purposely) and misidentified his Elantra and he was likely not even amongst the 22,000.

Arrive in Pennsylvania


12/16 - Brian and his Dad are cited at a Car Service Business

____________________

OK. So am I crazy? Maybe....

But if you take anything away from my theory....take away this. The 22,000 Elantra's announcement came during a time when the FBI was already following Bryan around and tracking him. If that's not an indicator that the message was to put Bryan at ease and that LE was deceiving him and the public...I'm not sure what is. They told us over and over again that they would not release information that would compromise the investigation.

Also, we've heard multiple reports that the DNA came back just in time to lock up a probable cause affidavit. So how did they manage to find Bryan without that familial DNA? As the FBI was on to him likely weeks before his arrest. I think this also points to the fact that they identified his car via a license plate pretty early in the investigation.

Lastly, I think the FBI followed him across the country because it was a cross state trip. Federal involvement needed. I think they tailed him 4 days before the murder because on or around 12/27 the DNA was back and they were trying to lock in their probably cause affidavit and this would be an out of state arrest. I think we'll come to learn that local police had been tailing him from the moment he drove into PA.



Thanks for reading!
Wow!

I wrote this yesterday:

Of course, is is far cry from your comprehensive logical factual-based chronology, but some points are fairly similar. Scary, isnt it?

You are onto something, i would only add that the police already confirned that they received tip-off on the car, so perhaps that was what triggered shifting the focus to BK. Of course thst may me a red herring, but as this was reported after the arrest, i tend to believe it is true. I think the tip-off on the car was first, video and images confirmed that car was in the area before and on the night of the murders, but NEVER AFTER.

Because of the information about the car, LE so quickly without hesitation eliminated the 'usual inner circle suspects' as none if them drives white Elantra. And as those eliminations were conducted during first week after the murders, I agree with you that LE were focusing on Elantra very early during the investigation, first couple of days.

I am also not sure that BK left WA for Thanksgiving break, as he may had scratches and bruises on his face, left by victims. He is loner, he may holed in his flat waiting to heal.

I have never followed a live criminal case even less sleuthing in my life before, but I am excited and (hopefully!) fast learner.
 
I'd like to get some of your thoughts on this.

So, i'm a movie guy. I've watched some of the great actors. Nicholson, De Niro, Hoffman, Brando, Betty Davis etc.

It's been said that an actor can be so intertwined with their character that they become that character and are locked in with the thoughts, mood, personality and disposition of the character they are portraying. It can take it's toll if the character is very complex and certainly if it's a very depressing, moody character. Now what if this guy Bryan had some kind of psychopath disposition but as a student in criminology was so in tune with thinking the way a homicidal criminal thinks that he became that homicidal criminal? Without the latter he would not be what he is today. Not all psychopaths are into criminology. Do you think he always thought about killing and naturally gravitated towards criminology because of that? Going to school for criminology almost implies that you're working to be on the right side of the law rather than the wrong side of it....I would think.

It's like, why go to school and spend all that time and effort just to throw it away killing people in the manner that he did?....unless the constant exposure to the criminal mind + the underlying psychopathy pushed him over the edge into the evil realm.

There's so many facts and info to be learned yet regarding the suspect and the question might be premature but just wondering if anybody had any thoughts on this.

It is an interesting idea, only I can bet that BK started having sadistic and then, homicidal thoughts much earlier, probably at 8 or 10. JMO. Maybe later, but definitely before 18. They'd probably be episodic, but I won't be surprised that he progressed so slowly in life because of his imaginary world. He probably went to criminology because it was more than hobby, call it passion. But of course, if you have an obsession, but now your profession focuses on it, you'd end up super-obsessed, and one day, your imaginary world will merge with reality. Scary, but those four young people... they didn't ask to be the part of his imaginary world. And even if BK is found to have some mental illness, which may happen, he should be viewed, first, from the standpoint of his danger to the society.
 
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