ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 11

[Grogu]

Long time lurker of the forum, first time poster.

I agree with the posters who thought it was an odd statement from the press conference. It was along the lines of "what is not in a photo can be is as important as what it shows". (paraphrasing here, not a direct quote).

I wonder if a crime scene photo shows something is missing from the apartment? Maybe an item that belonged to one of the victims was taken as a sort of trophy?

JMO

Meaning that the person might strike again ... if they are collecting trophies of their victims.

 

[qaysyrah]

It does not look like blood to me. Looks like just a red piece of paper of fabric. It has a part above the brick.

It extends above the brick. maybe a leaf.

 

[otto]

I've updated the floor plans - still not perfect - to reflect the building development plans published on DailyMail.

 

[L.laricina]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>I think the behavioral aspects of this case are being explored in great detail at this point with no named suspects and the elapsed time since the murders. The psychology could become very important. Are we looking for a psychotic person exhibiting a symptom of some other medical or mental condition who was completely healthy at one time, before that condition arose? Someone who suffered some, more or less, recent trauma or illness, maybe known to others. On the other hand, are we looking for someone with a lifelong mental illness, such as psychopathy, sociopathy, or even an unstable emotional disorder? Someone who many people knew wasn't quite right, and who was, more or less, a loner for most of their life.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

First post, so I hope I don't mess this up, and I apologize for the length but I just wanted to get all the comments from my head into one place. I’ve been watching and reading (though unable to keep up it’s moving so fast). JMO: I do not think that this was an acquaintance who just got upset. I do not think this was just a jealous boyfriend. It takes more than fortitude to slaughter four people in this style. The fact that an obvious suspect has not been identified means that these murders are different than the norm, and today's pc didn't dissuade me from my opinion, but ICBW & hope I am.

I think this guy is a prepared thrill killer/serial guy who has been watching and waiting for a while. He may have left a lot of DNA from the victims and a bloody mess, but the “mess” seems to have been limited to the areas where the murders took place, not all over the house. Here are some thoughts and what may be a plausible scenario.

It’s not his first killing. Animals, of course, but (and this is only a guess), there is also at least one human victim prior to this. Those humans would may be those unlikely to be missed (homeless, prostitute, etc.), taken so that he could practice his trade unnoticed. Obvs in another town, maybe another state. This killing, though, I think he wanted to announce his presence to authorities, show how smart and skilled he is, esp if he didn't get enough notice before. Four people-that's brazen, that's a big calling card. Maybe that’s why LE (via the families, etc.) used the “made a mess” statement to bait him, hoping he'd respond. He’ll love all of the focus, but maybe irked by that “sloppy” remark, because (his thinking) if he’s so sloppy, why no footprints in and out? Why wasn’t there blood on the doors? How did he murder four people so easily and leave no obvious signs for the two he left alive?

He’d have watched, waited, practiced. From the wooded area behind the house at night, from social venues where he was able to unobtrusively follow these girls. On social media. He’d have eaten at the Mad Greek to see them in person. Paid cash, of course. He’d have done several recons to make sure he knew their patterns. He may have even been in the house when they were gone.

He’d have a full kit packed -a small, unobtrusive backpack. Shoe covers, maybe a buzz cut, but not totally shaved head and hair net w/double-sided wig tape to scalp so it couldn’t fall off, OVOS gloves, mask (don’t want to leave spittle). I think he’d go early and on foot for most or all of the way. He’d wait in the wooded area behind the house, prep there, not wait in the house, because of risk of discovery. Easier to get in while they’re asleep rather than get out if discovered while they were still awake. Getting caught for a B&E would ruin his future plans.

I think he’d have gone in through the second floor sliding door after he was sure everyone was asleep, not through the first door with the keypad, even though he might know their code. I believe the first floor only has one possible exit. He would not let himself be trapped. On the second floor, he would have three potential door exits. Even on the 3rd floor, more options and he’s in good shape, so he could jump from the third story window or deck, if needed.

He’d go to the second floor bedroom first. E, the biggest and potentially undesirable victim. He'd cut arteries & vocal chords. Even if E woke up and fought, it would not be for long. Same with X to silence her, but she fought back. He might even have pre-cut duct tape for over the mouths. The police are saying no one was bound and gagged, but did anyone ask about adhesive residue? Or tape left over the mouths?

After he finished, he’d have wipes in his kit to clean gloves, suit, etc. & he’d make sure he had everything counted. That’s why he practiced. He’d put on clean shoe covers he’d brought. Sounds dramatic, but maybe even a hazmat suit or fresh pullover. No need to leave a blood trail in the hall if he can help it. He’d lock the door as he goes out. He’d even use a wipe to open the door and shut it. Why leave a bloody print? He’s visualized this so many times mentally, he is relatively calm.

On the third floor, he knows no one will hear him. He can elaborate there. Possibly a quick piece of tape over the mouth. (I think this may be where he focused/targeted. I wonder if one was posed or displayed a certain way? Something to single her out? Maybe an outfit?)

I think he skipped the first floor roommates intentionally. Only one way out of there, too easy to get trapped. Four is enough, and leaving two alive bought him time. He doesn’t kill the dog. Wouldn’t be the first time a dog has been spared (eg: Meredith Emerson).

Car would be parked a reasonable distance away, but I think he'd find somewhere to wait & watch, if possible,walk to car in daylight. There’s nothing unusual about someone going to their car in broad daylight, so why draw unnecessary attention. Besides, if he watched, he’d get to see how this unfolds. If I were him, I’d know that LE would be looking for nighttime video. Daylight where no one clocks what they’ve seen would be smarter. Maybe a clean change of clothes hidden someplace?
The cops will investigate predictably (most obvious first), so he will have time to distance himself.

Everyone wonders why no one heard anything, but my thoughts: First floor is built into the ground, so silencing effect. Add in: Alcohol. Asleep. White noise machines. Headphones. And the ability to sleep through a lot when you live with four or five people. Sounds like no one saw blood in the hallways. The first floor roommates sleep late, so hours before they realize there is a problem, and once they do think there’s a problem, it’s not like they’ll suspect a murder right away. He’s got quite a few hours after dawn. Might have even left a camera or mic in the house. By the time LE start to put the pieces together, he will have moved on. I think that’s why the FBI BAU are on site - and called pretty early, too. Again, all just my opinion/imagination/too many movies/books.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Posted again(with link) ..Possible blood spotted. Other similar pictures I have seen do not show this spot so maybe it was airbrushed?


View attachment 382249

Blueprints show where each Idaho student was found stabbed to death

Unearthed blueprints and layout plans of the off-campus house where four Idaho college students were brutally stabbed to death reveal where each of the friends were found slain earlier this month.

www.dailymail.co.uk

My eyes are old & zoom quality sucked, but to me, it looks like any one of the gazillions of fallen leaves laying around town. Moo

 

[TigerGirl3891]

What about looking at business that use fixed blade knives? I.E butcher shops or a deli, etc

I find it interesting that LE seems to be focusing on recent fixed blade purchases. Perhaps they are just covering their bases here. But it could also be that there was evidence that it’s a newer model. Otherwise, who’s to say it’s not a knife someone has had for years or even one found in the home?

 

[Strong1]

First post, so I hope I don't mess this up, and I apologize for the length but I just wanted to get all the comments from my head into one place. I’ve been watching and reading (though unable to keep up it’s moving so fast). JMO: I do not think that this was an acquaintance who just got upset. I do not think this was just a jealous boyfriend. It takes more than fortitude to slaughter four people in this style. The fact that an obvious suspect has not been identified means that these murders are different than the norm, and today's pc didn't dissuade me from my opinion, but ICBW & hope I am.

I think this guy is a prepared thrill killer/serial guy who has been watching and waiting for a while. He may have left a lot of DNA from the victims and a bloody mess, but the “mess” seems to have been limited to the areas where the murders took place, not all over the house. Here are some thoughts and what may be a plausible scenario.

It’s not his first killing. Animals, of course, but (and this is only a guess), there is also at least one human victim prior to this. Those humans would may be those unlikely to be missed (homeless, prostitute, etc.), taken so that he could practice his trade unnoticed. Obvs in another town, maybe another state. This killing, though, I think he wanted to announce his presence to authorities, show how smart and skilled he is, esp if he didn't get enough notice before. Four people-that's brazen, that's a big calling card. Maybe that’s why LE (via the families, etc.) used the “made a mess” statement to bait him, hoping he'd respond. He’ll love all of the focus, but maybe irked by that “sloppy” remark, because (his thinking) if he’s so sloppy, why no footprints in and out? Why wasn’t there blood on the doors? How did he murder four people so easily and leave no obvious signs for the two he left alive?

He’d have watched, waited, practiced. From the wooded area behind the house at night, from social venues where he was able to unobtrusively follow these girls. On social media. He’d have eaten at the Mad Greek to see them in person. Paid cash, of course. He’d have done several recons to make sure he knew their patterns. He may have even been in the house when they were gone.

He’d have a full kit packed -a small, unobtrusive backpack. Shoe covers, maybe a buzz cut, but not totally shaved head and hair net w/double-sided wig tape to scalp so it couldn’t fall off, OVOS gloves, mask (don’t want to leave spittle). I think he’d go early and on foot for most or all of the way. He’d wait in the wooded area behind the house, prep there, not wait in the house, because of risk of discovery. Easier to get in while they’re asleep rather than get out if discovered while they were still awake. Getting caught for a B&E would ruin his future plans.

I think he’d have gone in through the second floor sliding door after he was sure everyone was asleep, not through the first door with the keypad, even though he might know their code. I believe the first floor only has one possible exit. He would not let himself be trapped. On the second floor, he would have three potential door exits. Even on the 3rd floor, more options and he’s in good shape, so he could jump from the third story window or deck, if needed.

He’d go to the second floor bedroom first. E, the biggest and potentially undesirable victim. He'd cut arteries & vocal chords. Even if E woke up and fought, it would not be for long. Same with X to silence her, but she fought back. He might even have pre-cut duct tape for over the mouths. The police are saying no one was bound and gagged, but did anyone ask about adhesive residue? Or tape left over the mouths?

After he finished, he’d have wipes in his kit to clean gloves, suit, etc. & he’d make sure he had everything counted. That’s why he practiced. He’d put on clean shoe covers he’d brought. Sounds dramatic, but maybe even a hazmat suit or fresh pullover. No need to leave a blood trail in the hall if he can help it. He’d lock the door as he goes out. He’d even use a wipe to open the door and shut it. Why leave a bloody print? He’s visualized this so many times mentally, he is relatively calm.

On the third floor, he knows no one will hear him. He can elaborate there. Possibly a quick piece of tape over the mouth. (I think this may be where he focused/targeted. I wonder if one was posed or displayed a certain way? Something to single her out? Maybe an outfit?)

I think he skipped the first floor roommates intentionally. Only one way out of there, too easy to get trapped. Four is enough, and leaving two alive bought him time. He doesn’t kill the dog. Wouldn’t be the first time a dog has been spared (eg: Meredith Emerson).

Car would be parked a reasonable distance away, but I think he'd find somewhere to wait & watch, if possible,walk to car in daylight. There’s nothing unusual about someone going to their car in broad daylight, so why draw unnecessary attention. Besides, if he watched, he’d get to see how this unfolds. If I were him, I’d know that LE would be looking for nighttime video. Daylight where no one clocks what they’ve seen would be smarter. Maybe a clean change of clothes hidden someplace?
The cops will investigate predictably (most obvious first), so he will have time to distance himself.

Everyone wonders why no one heard anything, but my thoughts: First floor is built into the ground, so silencing effect. Add in: Alcohol. Asleep. White noise machines. Headphones. And the ability to sleep through a lot when you live with four or five people. Sounds like no one saw blood in the hallways. The first floor roommates sleep late, so hours before they realize there is a problem, and once they do think there’s a problem, it’s not like they’ll suspect a murder right away. He’s got quite a few hours after dawn. Might have even left a camera or mic in the house. By the time LE start to put the pieces together, he will have moved on. I think that’s why the FBI BAU are on site - and called pretty early, too. Again, all just my opinion/imagination/too many movies/books.

Welcome to Websleuths! Great job and at this point I think anything is possible.

 

[lcm319]

Hi all, just catching up after the presser earlier today-- and a particular statement about what's missing, or not seen, at the house has been festering. Here's a perhaps...

What's "missing" at the scene is an occupant for the empty bedroom on the 2nd floor. Is it possible they were all in the process of finding a new roommate? Or maybe even two, since K was relocating and a 3rd floor bedroom was also becoming available. This activity would span the entirety of the month, I imagine. I would also involve new people coming by and checking over the property. (I hope LE is considering this angle.)

My gut has made me feel K's departure, relocation, and exit from the immediate circle of friends may have been a trigger for someone, but today's presser statement underscored the probability that there were personal selections/rejections being sifted through by this entire group of friends.

Is there someone out there who may be feeling betrayed, disgruntled, and at the end of a housing tether?

JMO

In an earlier thread I questioned if there had ever been a 6th roommate. After looking a bit at Maddie’s Instagram, it seems like it was only ever the 5 of them (post from 8/16). If that’s the case, not sure why they’d be looking for a 6th, but yes maybe a new one to fill Kaylee’s spot?

 

[L.laricina]

It really would be interesting to know if he waited outside before they came home, somehow crossed one of the pairs’ paths and followed them there and waited until they went to sleep, or broke in after they went to sleep?

I think this could be answered with the forensics:

I think if there was any indication of him latching on to the surviving roommate’s doors — he knew the layout better (past guest, stalking them online, etc…) and was probably waiting for them to come home… if he did not seem to forensically go downstairs (blood trail, hand grip on the door, latent blood anywhere on the downstairs walls, railings) then I think he did not know the other two existed— which would maybe mean he followed a pair home and broke in after he watched all the lights go out?

*It’s still possible the roommate’s locked their doors when they got home earlier, or we don’t know if they heard something and locked their doors, or not. Obviously, this information is crucial to know if he did or did not go downstairs to try to get the survivors.

If he had not, then it’s very possible he targeted one of the pairs while they were out. I still think if he knew or stalked any of them online, he would’ve known about the other two roommates. It’s very odd that they were left untouched. That makes me think that it was a random, targeted event. Of course this is all supposition but, I don’t think this person seems to be in the business of leaving people alive. I truly don’t think he had a clue they were there and I would think he would know that if he had any type of familiarity with them previously. Or was watching the house more than following a pair of them home.

Another poster on a previous thread suggested to me that maybe the killer deliberately left the other victims alive because he was done killing. I'm not sure if it was the same poster, but another suggestion was that maybe the killer got some sense of power over deciding to kill 4 and spare 2. Paraphrasing but "god complex" was the concept iirc.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

University Of Idaho Murders: Toxicology Report To Reveal Crucial Clues To Students' Death

The toxicology results on the four University of Idaho students viciously butchered with a Rambo-style knife last week may hold vital crime-solving clues to determine if the coeds were drugged or under the influence...

[...]

Renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden tells RadarOnline.com the toxicology report could help investigators determine the victims’ state of the mind at the time of the slaying and determine if they were knocked out by date-rape type of drug.

“If they were drugged that would be found in the toxicology,” Baden said. “If they had recreational levels of marijuana and stuff that would support what they were doing that evening while partying – if there was some drug at a lethal level or something that would make them unconscious – that would certainly be important for the police to consider.”... ​

“Latah County (Idaho) Coroner Cathy Mabbuttdeclined to discuss the case with RadarOnline.com referring all questions to the Moscow police department.”

I’d decline to talk to RadarOnline, too. Moo

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

University Of Idaho Murders: Toxicology Report To Reveal Crucial Clues To Students' Death

The toxicology results on the four University of Idaho students viciously butchered with a Rambo-style knife last week may hold vital crime-solving clues to determine if the coeds were drugged or under the influence...

[...]

Renowned forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden tells RadarOnline.com the toxicology report could help investigators determine the victims’ state of the mind at the time of the slaying and determine if they were knocked out by date-rape type of drug.

“If they were drugged that would be found in the toxicology,” Baden said. “If they had recreational levels of marijuana and stuff that would support what they were doing that evening while partying – if there was some drug at a lethal level or something that would make them unconscious – that would certainly be important for the police to consider.”... ​

“Latah County (Idaho) Coroner Cathy Mabbutt declined to discuss the case with RadarOnline.com referring all questions to the Moscow police department.”

I’d decline to talk to RadarOnline, too. Moo

 

[L.laricina]

I've updated the floor plans - still not perfect - to reflect the building development plans published on DailyMail.

<<images removed>>

Right on! A little late for CAD work, isn't it? Thanks, Otto

 

[Happyshoes]

Why the perp was likely local or localish...
Perp knew the house....

One cannot stake out the house on Google. 500-718 Queen Rd · 500-718 Queen Rd, Moscow, ID 83843 (No matter how you turn it around, you can't see the sliding doors)
Home looks meh...from Street View and shows lower level and would not appeal to someone wanting to break in.

One does not know that there are sliding doors etc...
Zillow also does not show the sliding doors.
Whoever did this, knew about the sliding doors and was likely familiar with the area. Likely didn't just "meet them on Saturday night and follow them home" Perp was at least somewhat familiar with the residence.

If guy followed the girls home, he could have seen them enter either door. I think he knew them (but they never noticed him), then when he got up the courage to speak to one or both of them, he got blasted and probably laughed at.

 

[MntnHiker]

"The police said the two surviving housemates had each been out of town, separately, on Saturday and had returned to the house by about 1 a.m."
Source: 1,000 Tips, No Suspects: Latest on the University of Idaho Killings

I’m not able to see as it’s behind a paywall. But interesting that it contradicts what’s on the official police website for this. There’s been so much conflicting info.

 

[SteveP]

“Latah County (Idaho) Coroner Cathy Mabbuttdeclined to discuss the case with RadarOnline.com referring all questions to the Moscow police department.”

I’d decline to talk to RadarOnline, too. Moo

Hate it took so long, but glad she apparently finally got the memo, and stopped talking to reporters.

 

[airportwoman]

First post, so I hope I don't mess this up, and I apologize for the length but I just wanted to get all the comments from my head into one place. I’ve been watching and reading (though unable to keep up it’s moving so fast). JMO: I do not think that this was an acquaintance who just got upset. I do not think this was just a jealous boyfriend. It takes more than fortitude to slaughter four people in this style. The fact that an obvious suspect has not been identified means that these murders are different than the norm, and today's pc didn't dissuade me from my opinion, but ICBW & hope I am.

I think this guy is a prepared thrill killer/serial guy who has been watching and waiting for a while. He may have left a lot of DNA from the victims and a bloody mess, but the “mess” seems to have been limited to the areas where the murders took place, not all over the house. Here are some thoughts and what may be a plausible scenario.

It’s not his first killing. Animals, of course, but (and this is only a guess), there is also at least one human victim prior to this. Those humans would may be those unlikely to be missed (homeless, prostitute, etc.), taken so that he could practice his trade unnoticed. Obvs in another town, maybe another state. This killing, though, I think he wanted to announce his presence to authorities, show how smart and skilled he is, esp if he didn't get enough notice before. Four people-that's brazen, that's a big calling card. Maybe that’s why LE (via the families, etc.) used the “made a mess” statement to bait him, hoping he'd respond. He’ll love all of the focus, but maybe irked by that “sloppy” remark, because (his thinking) if he’s so sloppy, why no footprints in and out? Why wasn’t there blood on the doors? How did he murder four people so easily and leave no obvious signs for the two he left alive?

He’d have watched, waited, practiced. From the wooded area behind the house at night, from social venues where he was able to unobtrusively follow these girls. On social media. He’d have eaten at the Mad Greek to see them in person. Paid cash, of course. He’d have done several recons to make sure he knew their patterns. He may have even been in the house when they were gone.

He’d have a full kit packed -a small, unobtrusive backpack. Shoe covers, maybe a buzz cut, but not totally shaved head and hair net w/double-sided wig tape to scalp so it couldn’t fall off, OVOS gloves, mask (don’t want to leave spittle). I think he’d go early and on foot for most or all of the way. He’d wait in the wooded area behind the house, prep there, not wait in the house, because of risk of discovery. Easier to get in while they’re asleep rather than get out if discovered while they were still awake. Getting caught for a B&E would ruin his future plans.

I think he’d have gone in through the second floor sliding door after he was sure everyone was asleep, not through the first door with the keypad, even though he might know their code. I believe the first floor only has one possible exit. He would not let himself be trapped. On the second floor, he would have three potential door exits. Even on the 3rd floor, more options and he’s in good shape, so he could jump from the third story window or deck, if needed.

He’d go to the second floor bedroom first. E, the biggest and potentially undesirable victim. He'd cut arteries & vocal chords. Even if E woke up and fought, it would not be for long. Same with X to silence her, but she fought back. He might even have pre-cut duct tape for over the mouths. The police are saying no one was bound and gagged, but did anyone ask about adhesive residue? Or tape left over the mouths?

After he finished, he’d have wipes in his kit to clean gloves, suit, etc. & he’d make sure he had everything counted. That’s why he practiced. He’d put on clean shoe covers he’d brought. Sounds dramatic, but maybe even a hazmat suit or fresh pullover. No need to leave a blood trail in the hall if he can help it. He’d lock the door as he goes out. He’d even use a wipe to open the door and shut it. Why leave a bloody print? He’s visualized this so many times mentally, he is relatively calm.

On the third floor, he knows no one will hear him. He can elaborate there. Possibly a quick piece of tape over the mouth. (I think this may be where he focused/targeted. I wonder if one was posed or displayed a certain way? Something to single her out? Maybe an outfit?)

I think he skipped the first floor roommates intentionally. Only one way out of there, too easy to get trapped. Four is enough, and leaving two alive bought him time. He doesn’t kill the dog. Wouldn’t be the first time a dog has been spared (eg: Meredith Emerson).

Car would be parked a reasonable distance away, but I think he'd find somewhere to wait & watch, if possible,walk to car in daylight. There’s nothing unusual about someone going to their car in broad daylight, so why draw unnecessary attention. Besides, if he watched, he’d get to see how this unfolds. If I were him, I’d know that LE would be looking for nighttime video. Daylight where no one clocks what they’ve seen would be smarter. Maybe a clean change of clothes hidden someplace?
The cops will investigate predictably (most obvious first), so he will have time to distance himself.

Everyone wonders why no one heard anything, but my thoughts: First floor is built into the ground, so silencing effect. Add in: Alcohol. Asleep. White noise machines. Headphones. And the ability to sleep through a lot when you live with four or five people. Sounds like no one saw blood in the hallways. The first floor roommates sleep late, so hours before they realize there is a problem, and once they do think there’s a problem, it’s not like they’ll suspect a murder right away. He’s got quite a few hours after dawn. Might have even left a camera or mic in the house. By the time LE start to put the pieces together, he will have moved on. I think that’s why the FBI BAU are on site - and called pretty early, too. Again, all just my opinion/imagination/too many movies/books.

I thought about BTK while reading this. Can't believe that hadn't occurred to me sooner - that it could be someone who looked for and found a target, and took advantage.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

I’m caught up - didn’t think it would happen. So 2 questions.

For those who think the perp is female, can you point me to cases where a knife mass murder of non-family members was committed by a female?

Second, is it possible the cops have used cell phone data to determine the times the various housemates arrived back home?

Thx!

 

[gliving]

Does anyone know of any online sources for unsolved homicide data, preferably broken down by state, that is already in tabular form or a spreadsheet? Data that is kept current would be great. I think it would be interesting to plug such data into ArcPro and see what, if any spatial correlations there might be.

There's this website. It's a bit clunky to use.

www.murderdata.org

Tracking America's unsolved homicides

murderdata.org

 

[HeyDude]

Looking at the floor layout, questions arise about who they were targeting. Assuming they entered through the 2nd floor sliding door (I don't see them risk getting seen while entering the third floor bedroom directly through the sliding door)
1. If they were only after X or E, there would have been no reason to go to the third floor. The fact that they killed people on two levels leads me to believe that this was more a thrill kill than a targeted attack on only one individual.
2. If they were after K or M, they could have easily gone up the stairs to the third floor, without going back into the bedroom where X and E were. If K or M were the target, the only reason I'd see for them to kill XE would be if they didn't know who was in each room. This would point me towards someone who was not familiar with the house and room assignments.

On a different subject of what LE walked into, I wonder if things were staged to look like a murder suicide. That's what went through my head when LE announced that there was no threat to public safety so quickly. I realize the murder weapon hasn't been found, but they could have easily taken a knife from the kitchen to set the scene, and it could explain why LE didn't immediately react to potential evidence outside of the house.

All MOO