ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 17

[North_Idaho_Nony]

For the folks that think Universities have no say what happens in off campus housing. That is incorrect.

https://educationlaw.org/images/conference-pdfs/g2-2_white.pdf

Universities try to control students off campus

A growing number of universities are starting to take a more proactive approach to monitoring off-campus behavior and neighbors say the efforts are working.

www.nbcnews.com

2008 article: there has been ~nothing~ like that at UI. Fact of the matter is UI really doesn’t even like to address on-campus issues with privately owned/leased Greek houses, let alone student behavior in private off-campus accommodations.

 

[alaskanblue]

All these people need to get together and decide what to make public.They backtrack so much that it makes them sound clueless.

I agree--it's gotten a bit ridiculous at this point. I know they have a ton of work that they are doing but some cohesiveness would be good.

 

[AngTxGal]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1598079656628211714

For those of you, like me, who do not know who Angela Palermo is, she is a reporter for the Idaho Statesman and a U of Idaho alum, as per her twitter channel.

The message from Moscow mayor, PD, and the Prosecutor to the public has caused whiplash, mistrust, and discomfort for the public and families.
Now PD implies there is disagreement between PD and the Prosecutor regarding messaging??

Messaging changes coming out right after statements by Ks father implying he knows more, there are other victims, and K did have a stalker is unsettling.
What else is known by the family?
What is known by PD and the Prosecutors that isn’t about the case?
Is the cloak of preserving the investigation being used to hide other things? Why?
Are these messaging mistakes due to inexperience?
If PD and the Prosecutor have no updates to share, why do they keep coming forward muddying the Waters? What is causing their knee jerk reaction to jump out there and fill the void with words?
Where are the state police and the FBI with assurances from more experienced messengers?

As a supporter of the system, PD, and Prosecutor the confusion does not sit well.
The public wants…
-Justice for these young lives
-To trust investigators in their work
-To sense investigation and prosecution are a united team
-To not be treated like we can’t handle the truth
-To not get the feeling the stories of additional victims are being silenced.

Is the Idaho4 compared to Delphi, a fair comparison? Where is Moscow’s Doug Carter?

Lots of questions
IMO

 

[alaskanblue]

Or in the hours before it, to buy their duct tape, bleach, weapon, and whatever else they're stupid enough to not realize that they're being recorded.

Yes, I've seen that happen so many times and as dumb as it is to be recorded on camera they always seem to use their credit or debit card also. Makes it easy for LE.

 

[Seattle1]

I think there’s a missing paragraph return. 1:45 is when they returned home. JMO

To be clear, this was not per MSM with a missing paragraph but the updated summary by LE posted on their website. What's been omitted by LE no longer applies (i.e., alluding to speculation that 4-5 hours were not accounted for).

King Road Homicides | Moscow, ID

 

[Sandy007]

In Moscow Idaho? Ordering food at 3 am? Sorry can't get that down here in San Antonio. Delivery ends around midnight here.

Food grub truck works well after midnight.
The one where the girls ordered the food at 1:45 am in Moscow, Idaho. It was opened till 2 am, according to their website.

Grub Wandering Kitchen

Grub Wandering Kitchen, a food truck in Moscow Idaho, open four nights a week with a menu of nine varieties of mac-n-cheese, tacos, and burritos Est. 2013

www.thegrubtruck.com

But that is not the point.

The point is that the perpetrator was planning his actions agead. He could have said that the truck did not close at 2 am because there were a lot of orders, for example, thus if he pretended to be a delivery man.

He may pretended to be a delivery man or he was a delivery man when he came to the house prior to the killings and became curious about its habitants. I have no idea. It is a guessing game.

And it is irrelevant what kind of excuse he may have had prepared in case he was found in the house before srarting killing.

In either case, from what we certainly know, he was confident enough in the middle of the night to enter a house full of people and a dog and confident enough to kill one after the other 4 of these people without waking up even a single living soul in the neighbourhood, lets alone half of the city full with young students.

And afterwards he manages to get out and dissappear in thin air. Well organised, calculating, planning, confident and also boiling with rage and anger, driven by his perception of right and wrong, but in reality deeply troubled, unsecure, twisted monster. This is the impression i have with the little information we have.

I think such character would have been too prominent to locals, especially when everyone would be scrutinesed after the murders. That is why I am inclined to believe that he was not local, from the neighbourhood. But he lives not far away, 1-2 hours to travel. He has a job which requires him to travel, by a van/truck, but he also may have a motorbike. I hope he is found soon.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Do you think the feds are going to bow to a university? I don't think so. LE wants this solved. The University and the entire town won't function normally until it is and they know that. I am curious what your angle is and why you find the University so negligent it would seem.

I would be curious to know if there are any active investigations into a greek house currently.

I don’t know how active the investigation is, but I haven’t read any resolution to this tragic incident:
Philanthropy structure collapses at Phi Tau

Two students had to be LifeFlighted to other hospitals.

 

[Colorado303]

I think that poor man has just about had enough. His child was savagely stabbed to death. Weeks ago. No suspects. No information. I don't blame him one bit for eulogizing his daughter and her best friend.

I don’t blame him either. But this is exactly why LE is reluctant to provide regular updates to family members. To family it is maddening and seems cold, uncaring and disrespectful, but it’s hard to imagine what it’s like to have inside information on a case involving a loved one and not be able to share it. And sharing it with a just few close friends can be dangerous—they tell a few of their friends, etc. and pretty soon the information may “get out”.

It must be hard for LE not to share details w/the family but they are protecting the ability to eventually get justice. And IMO protecting family from the burden of having heartwrenching, disturbing info they can’t share. Making it even more painful, often the sharing is done reluctantly to correct wild accusations click-hungry media and internet trolls are spewing about their butchered loved one.

Just so painful. I don’t fault her Dad one bit and my heart aches for all the victim’s families and friends.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Snipping for focus.
Welcome to Websleuths.
Tho your post describes you as a T/C novice, I agree: to date, LE has not released factual info pointing to identifying a suspect. Or even a person of interest.


Snipping to address part of only one angle: Using knife, not gun?
Not necessarily indicate anything about income.

Why was gun not used?
If perp planned killings, prior to entering house/apt., seemly likely perp may have considered gunshot noises & the unwelcome attention they would have brought in that neighborhood of closely spaced homes & apts. Well, that is, if perp was thinking rationally, as we usu. do here.

Ability to procure gun?
Could perp have bought a handgun legally?
Purchasing a firearm is subject to federal law and a federal NICS* background check for sales made thru fed'ly licensed firearms dealers.**
IN. statutes also govern handgun purchases.***
For private sales in IN, background checks are not required, so a perp may have chosen that route.

Of course, as an alternative to legally purchasing, a perp could "borrow" either w. or w'out owner's permission.
Or might use the time-tested way stealing a handgun.
If planning to use a handgun to kill or even "just injure" a person, a perp may not give a second's thought to possible prosecution or conviction for handgun law violations.

It's also possible perp had gun w him at the time of killings and may have shown it to one or more victims (brandishing it to encourage silence) but did not fire it.

So much we do not know. At least not yet.

_____________________

For lots of tedious, technical details, see:​

* National Instant Criminal Background Check System - Wikipedia​

** Gun law in the United States - Wikipedia​

*** Gun laws in Indiana - Wikipedia​

Both Indiana and Federal laws restrict purchase and possession under certain circumstances. Federal law prohibits possession of firearms for life by those convicted of felonies and for those convicted of misdemeanors involving domestic violence.

Indiana is not Idaho

Gun & Weapon Law

 

[alaskanblue]

I’m wondering about the job Kaylee had lined up. Did someone else from college also apply for the that job?

Interesting idea, someone else from U of I who was unhappy she was hired instead of her? Unhappy enough to kill four people? Somewhat of a reach but anything is possible I suppose. Might be worth LE checking out all of the other applicants.

 

[AngTxGal]

Regarding the interview with Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson, we feel his responses were messaged to support the implication that new information had been released. Specifically, generalized statements regarding the potential of targeted victims and the involvement of drugs were redefined into an affirmative answer. At this time, there is no change or new information in this case, and references otherwise would be inaccurate.

11/30 Update

Am I missing something? Would the investigators and prosecutor not be on the same team working for the same purpose- Justice?
Who is the experienced singular assuring face and messenger to the public and families?
Why are statements by the mayor, coroner, and prosecutor even coming forward?

Where the heck is Moscow’s Doug Carter?

IMO/ MOO

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Do outsiders go to these frat parties? I just can't see a frat brother being involved in this because some other frat brother(s) would likely know about the fixed blade weapon. In my opinion the perp has a knife fixation and I presume that would be common knowledge amongst frat brothers. With Ethan's brother also being in the frat I think anything untoward happening to E and X at that party would have already been made public in the beginning. Again just my opinion.

I cannot speak about other universities, but it is extremely common at UI. Here’s a link to one such instance with a tragic outcome:
NEW DETAILS: University Of Idaho Student Found Dead Near Moscow

 

[alaskanblue]

Is there any chance that the knife belonged to one of the victims? That would explain why they keep expecting to find it. It would also explain how LE has a description of it.

I doubt it, I'm fairly certain the killer brought it with him. Of course there hasn't been any mention of any knives missing from the kitchen either. A kitchen/chef knife wasn't used in these murders anyway, so that really isn't something they'd be looking for.

 

[Sjöberg]

I am not talking about the coroner knowing that. Frankly, I am way over that part of the convo. I am talking about how this perp expected that. Apparently, the perp was concerned enough to strike in the dead of night. How did he/she know they were really asleep?

MOO: Yes, the coroner could say that they were likely sleeping based on the first stabs showing no marks that the person tried to defend themselves and that they were lying in bed. But if/how did the perp plan their entry time is kinda curious. There are options, like social media and whatnot.

It's not necessarily difficult either. The girls were both visibly intoxicated. If the first blow to the first victim in the bed is fatal they'd not necessarily make noise of volume enough to wake an intoxicated person who is asleep. Perhaps the victim just made that shock gasp for air upon the fatal blow, which killer could muffle with their hand. All this of course depends on the skill and/or composure of the killer. I'm speculating that X (and possibly E, though not confirmed) had 'defensive' wounds because perhaps she was not intoxicated or as intoxicated.

MOO: Yes, often the first reaction upon sudden pain is actually holding your breath! And the intoxication levels probably did influence how aware of the situation different victims were.

Why wouldn't the killer just open the window and jump from the balcony? He doesn't have to worry about confronting somebody else and possibly being overpowered. The balcony doesn't look like it's that high up? He goes straight up the third floor. Takes out his target. Maybe makes some noise and now he thinks somebody downstairs might have heard it. It's either unknown to him who's down there or it is known to him and he knows it's Ethan who, like I said, was a big kid. Do you go down and possibly get overpowered or do you go out the window in Maddie's room and jump from the balcony to make your escape?

MOO: Some speculated that it might have been the ground conditions (frozen? slippery? just hard?) that made it a bad idea. It is possible E&X were attacked first (makes you question the motive of killing all 4). But I have been thinking about that if the killer went upstairs first, knowing that they'd have to come back from these stairs (bottleneck) while 2-4 living people are down in the house, then that would be kinda odd. Not sure what I make of it one way or the other.

The fact they are seeking surveillance video from 3 to 6am implies that they know where the suspect was before 3am, which implies they actually know who the suspect is. 3 to 6am is when the murder weapon and clothes were probably disposed of

MOO: I think among these lines, too. They seem to have the entry, either on video or otherwise (does not mean they know who it was, though greatly increases the chances).

I don’t get it. Investigators don’t believe it was random but can’t say if the house or anyone specifically was targeted.

Random is defined as: proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers. So if it was NOT random, that means the murder WAS carried out with definite aim, reason or pattern.
The definition of target is: a person, object, or place selected as the aim of an attack. "the airport terminal was the target of a bomb". Put those two phrases they keep saying together, a target is the object of an aim of an attack.

So are they saying that there was some reason they know the perp had to do this but that they don’t know who/what they were supposed to do it too? They somehow know the murder was carried out with purpose, but they aren’t sure what that purpose was? Is there something else that would make the crime seem targeted to police that doesn’t have to deal with the victims or house

MOO: In the end this probably comes down to one of more of the terms being used carelessly. But it is kinda interesting to think about how the PD could be sure about non-randomness, but not know if/who was the target (they might also know and not share, I know, just a new angle).

THE FOOD
I apologize in advance should this become the new DOG / UNCONCIOUS / FRIENDS, but I've been wondering that did K&M ever eat the food they brought? Did the 2 of them eat it or did all 4 of them hang out together? In what room? Was the perp watching at that time or not? Was there any importance in the possible conversation between the 2/4/6? Was the plan to eat up and settle in for the night or to have some food and continue partying? Was this food break something the surviving roommates heard, and were they still up and about at the time or in their beds (it's said they "returned home by 1 a.m", but nothing more)? No, I don't try to go any direction with it, it is just that this part of the timeline, very close to the murders, is rather fuzzy to me.

 

[Sandy007]

Kaylee's father, Steve Goncalves, told the crowd that his daughter died in the same bed as her best friend, Maddie.

It had previously been reported the two girls were in separate bedrooms when they were stabbed to death by the unknown assailant.

Idaho cops say they don't know if murder victims were 'targeted'

On Wednesday, police in Idaho backpedaled on their statements that the attack on the four University of Idaho students was 'targeted'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[alaskanblue]

I do agree, although I think if the killer can handle the stress of sneaking into the house, carrying out the 4 kills and escaping with no trace, he must be almost a professional hitman, or something of that ilk. Such a high-level of confidence.

That's why I don't think he'll crack. Psychologically, he'll be able to handle the aftermath.

In fact, for him, it may be relief now he has done the deed.

MOO.

You may be right but I can't imagine the killer just hanging out in Moscow not being rattled at all while Mass Media is all over the place. Unless, of course if he's a sociopath, which is highly likely.

 

[jcamh]

I've been reading this forum since thread #1 and there has been a gamut of speculation about every detail of what happened. There are two sayings, that I keep coming back to: 1) take the path of least resistance, and 2) when you hear hoof prints, look for a horse, not a unicorn.

I do think this was a rage killing targeting either K or M and I lean towards K because she was just in town for the weekend. The killer may have known that K had broken up with her boyfriend and saw his opportunity to hit on her or ask her out. It's possible that the killer was harassing K and M earlier that night and she turned him down in a way that either made him feel ashamed or embarrassed and that was she he made the decision to get back at her. I think the reason K and M tried calling K's ex-boyfriend so many times is perhaps because K's unwelcome suitor may know K's boyfriend.

However, I think as rage goes, it is usually not well-planned out, but is more reactive and vengeful. I think the killer made entry into the house through the unlocked sliding glass door (hence the "path or least resistance" and "horse, not unicorn" -- i.e. climbing up the the 3rd floor to enter). I think E either heard the sliding glass door open and got up to see who it was or he got up to go to the bathroom which is off the common area (remember, they had all been at parties/drinking). These are reasonable reasons for why he may have gotten up (think horse, not unicorn).

I think the guy had made it to the bedroom door by the time E heard the noise and decided to get up to check out who was coming in the sliding glass door. I think E surprised the guy and he seriously wounded E with the first stab or two. I think this activity woke up X and the guy had to stab her because she could disrupt his plan to kill his target. She didn't have time to get out of bed, but was awake enough to have defense wounds. I think he stabbed her to death and then went back to stab E to death.

Then, with E and X out of the way, I think he went upstairs to find his target. However, I think he was surprised a second time, when he found K and M sleeping in the same bed. He couldn't kill one without killing them both because the second one would wake up. I think finding them together foiled his plan which may have been to rape and then, kill his target and this further enraged him. I think he stabbed one girl and immediately stabbed the other one and then went back and forth stabbing them in a rage until they were dead. We know that at least one of the two girls was intoxicated and they were both asleep.

I don't think his plan was to kill everyone in the house because he was acting out of rage. I think he wanted to kill one girl, and had to kill the other 3 because they were in his way and could prevent him from getting to his target. And so, they unfortunately were collateral damage. I don't even think he went to the first floor at all because he had killed his targeted victim. The two girls on the first floor weren't in his way and the killer probably thought they were asleep or he may not have even known they were in the house.

I think the killer either put Murphy the dog in a closet, or outside the bedroom door or in one of the empty bedrooms BEFORE he killed the girls.

After carrying out these murders, I have no doubt that his shoes and clothes were covered in blood as would be the knife. But what he may have done next is where I am conflicted. I think he was smart enough to know that he couldn't leave a bloody trail going out of the house and straight to him. So, I do think that he tried to clean himself up in the kitchen by washing blood off of his face and arms and hands and wiping blood off his shoes. I also think he washed the knife so that it's not dripping blood as he leaves the house. I think he was carrying a backpack as most students do and he put the knife in the backpack along with his coat that may have had blood all over it. That leaves blood on his shirt and jeans. Cotton is very absorbent and it likely absorbed the blood and thus, he wasn't dripping blood.

I think he left through the sliding glass door which is the path of least resistance and the obvious exit (think horse, not unicorn). He probably went back to where he lived and put the bloody clothes straight into the washer. That late at night, it is probable that no one was around to see him doing laundry.

<modsnip>

I think the killer is a student at the school and a member of a fraternity. He may have had a crush or obsessed over the girl he was targeting all year. But then over the weekend when he saw her again, I think she rebuffed him and that set him off. Thus, I think he could have been seething with rage wanting to get back at her. So, I think he waited until they got home and the lights were off, assuming they were likely to be asleep.

I don't tend to think that any of the other things surrounding this case - the 3 AM 911 call, the previous cases that have similarities, the skinned dog, etc are related to this case and are likely coincidental.

So this is my two cents again.

 

[Seattle1]

Just a reminder that parents of the victims simply can not be held to comments that they make about the murders and/or the investigation from day to day. Regardless of how poised they may appear, they are clearly in shock and grieving.

For example, take Kristi and Steve Goncalves 14 minute interview with "Lawrence Jones Cross Country" on Nov 20, 2022, where they tell the reporter that they want to broadcast their address to the world and hope the killer shows up at their home -- almost taunting him/her-- because they were feeling fearless and empowered, compared to today where they now claim they are afraid to hold a funeral for their daughter, Kaylee, out of fear the killer might attend the service.

So terribly sad. Remember to take it all with a grain of salt. MOO

Parents of Idaho university murder victim vow ex-boyfriend's innocence in case: 'We stand behind Jack 1000%'

The parents of slain Idaho college student, Kaylee Goncalves, spoke out on 'Lawrence Jones Cross Country,' maintaining their daughter's ex-boyfriend's innocence in the case.

www.foxnews.com

Goncalves added, "My wife's biggest fear, part of the reason we didn't have a funeral, is because she couldn't be guaranteed that that monster was going to not be there."

11/29/22 -- Dad of slain Idaho student pleads with public for help: 'I have to have my justice'

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Heh- I hesitate to ask this out of fear of drowning in the bottomless Sea of Speculation but… diving in.
I don’t recall any video or photos showing the patio LED lights nor any others turned on during initial LE response and crime scene forensics. I saw them on days or weeks after
Do you all remember?
That makes a little bit of difference to me in terms of Mr Monster entering the house before or after they were home.
I’m not comfortable with the sleeping proposition. It is comforting on some levels to imagine that.
And I say no no no he was not nuts or in a psychotic episode, way too organized. Deranged, yes. Personality disorder, psychopathy yes. Cold blooded power and control freak,yes. Sadistic sounds about right to me too, check. I do believe there was a sexual or erotic fulfillment element, too, possibly unless it was just about any one of a myriad of other perceived transgressions or wrongs cultivated in the killer’s avenging mind. IMOO

Yes. There were fairy lights on outside the patio & inside the kitchen in the earliest public photos from the first day :-( Because it was daylight, my impression was the lights must have been on when LE arrived :-( I posted about it in an earlier thread.

Chilling.

 

[cottonweaver]

Ohhh..that was new! Kaylee's dad confirmed they (Kaylee and Maddie) died together in the same room/bed!

wow

that's just as Jonny Law speculated right at the start ( based on Kaylee having officially moved out & possibly not having all her furniture in situ )