ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 25

[NickoD]

It is not unusual for car thieves to pry off VIN plates from junked cars and apply them to stolen cars. I believe this is going to turn out to be a stolen car. LE may have it and not know who owned it.

This is not as easy as switching license plates. VIN numbers exist in multiple areas on a vehicle from doors to the actual frame of the car and it's almost impossible to get them all.

While not verified by the admins (so take it with whatever gain of salt you wish), I do a fair amount of VIN verifications for abandoned vehicles for a PD here in Idaho so it's not unusual to have to crawl under a car to get that information.

 

[Rosiebones]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE December 7, 2022
CONTACT

Moscow Police Department, communications team, media line: (C) (208) 997-8701, (O) 208-883-7181

Moscow Police are Asking for the Community’s Help

MOSCOW, Idaho – Detectives are interested in speaking with the occupant(s) of a white 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra, with an unknown license plate. Tips and leads have led investigators to look for additional information about a vehicle being in the immediate area of the King Street residence during the early morning hours of November 13th. Investigators believe the occupant(s) of this vehicle may have critical information to share regarding this case.
If you know of or own a vehicle matching this description, or know of anyone who may have been driving this vehicle on the days preceding or the day of the murders, please forward that information to the Tip Line.

https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24894/12-07-22-Moscow-Police-are-Asking-for-the-Communitys-Help

For me it will be telling if anyone comes forward to say they were driving that car or were occupants. The silence will be deafening. MOO MOO MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I do not know but if you think about how much blood was on the killer, it would be on the inside the doorway, steps/walkway leaving the dorm house, so far the only blood we have saw in any photos, is running down the foundation of the dorm house, so does this say the killer cleaned up and changed clothes before they left, (To Big Of Risk) my opinion only?
I have ask this question already but the girl named Kaylee was moving to Texas, already had a job and just bought a new car and was there to visit one of the other girls, that explains why the two girls was in bed together, so what do we know about the relationship between the two girls and their boyfriends? The 4 victims relationships with each other and over all dorm houses relationships with to getting along with each other?
When the LE founds this out they will know a lot more to this story, JMO
Kaylees mother did an interview a few day ago say that LE took t

LE is already aware of all the answers to those questions. The reason I say this is because we're all aware of them as they've been dissected throughout all the threads. It's a sure bet, IMO, that LE knows way more than we do so if we know, they surely do.

MOO.

 

[10ofRods]

I really don't think it is. If you watch the body cam video, there are several white cars in the area. Plus, there is no way from the video anyone would be able to figure out the make and year of the vehicle. The footage is just too distant and fuzzy.

There's a forensic specialty called "blur analysis" that uses various techniques to analyze blurry photos and obtain way more detail than we can with our eyes - or our monitors.

I believe blur studies were already a thing in the 1960's, as there were a couple of blur specialists looking at JFK assassination pictures by around 1966. Today, of course, these studies are much more detailed and elegant. A blurry photo submitted for this kind of analysis can provide a lot of information, just as can a blurry fingerprint.

Here is a technical article (there are many):

A non-parametric blur measure based on edge analysis for image processing applications

A nonparametric image blur measure is presented. The measure is based on edge analysis and is suitable for various image processing applications. The proposed measure for any edge point is obtained by combining the standard deviation of the edge gradient magnitude profile and the value of the...

ieeexplore.ieee.org

 

[everybodhi]

Different case, but this year with Eliza Fletcher's case in Memphis, I was absolutely baffled when they said that she was kidnapped/murdered Friday morning and he left a slide sandal behind, and the next day by 4:30 the TBI had matched his DNA and found him .... That's the first time I've ever heard of DNA being such an instant result. I get that he was in CODIS but ... that's a database just like 23 & Me / Ancestry / etc. store their data. How is that any different?? How was this situation dramatically more expeditious than other crime situations where DNA information is sought?
(I obviously know less than zero about this, so am happy to be corrected or enlightened!)

With a CODIS match, it’s a direct match of the perpetrator’s own DNA that was collected at a prior arrest. They probably also used a rapid DNA tool on the perps swab that gives a reading in 90 minutes.
In criminal case forensic genealogy they are taking unknown DNA collected from an crime scene and tracing it through of family tree of brothers, aunts, second cousins, etc. often hundreds of degrees of separation, who had their DNA tested, to locate a familial match. This can take months of research.
Then they find the sister to the unknown DNA, for instance, who submitted the 23&me test but she has three brothers so any of them could be a match so they have to narrow it further. Usually by the obvious, like age and location. Then they have to get that guys DNA to confirm he’s the match.

 

[cottonweaver]

Are all these people being charged with something? Is it a crime to be unconscious or very drunk? I don't think it is, if one isn't driving or operating machinery or being disorderly. If it's not a crime, then there would be no Clery Act requirement for the University to put this information up in their crime tallies.

I posted a link to the Clery Act page of U of I a couple of days ago, but one can find it on their own by going to the U of I Webpage, and clicking on the "About" tab, IIRC and it's there somewhere. I'll try and find it again when I have a chance.

plus they wouldn't be reporting undergrads to parents would they? unless there was an admission to hospital ( in event that University thought the 'unconsciousness' was a medical emergency)

 

[EJB123456]

I am sorry, but I will have to disagree. I read the press release 5 times and there is no mentioning that LE wants to find out who is the the owner of the car, only its occupants (word occupants used twice & interested who may be driving the car).

Uploading PDF file of PR

Unless we are talking about 2 different press releases, of which I am unaware, I still believe that it may by the case that LE knows who the owner is, however they do not know who was driving the car because the car was reported stolen

Maybe, but then why wouldn't they know what the license plate is? They say it's 'unknown'.

They also say: "If you know of or own a vehicle matching this description..." in the press release you've linked to.

BBM

 

[cottonweaver]

There's a forensic specialty called "blur analysis" that uses various techniques to analyze blurry photos and obtain way more detail than we can with our eyes - or our monitors.

I believe blur studies were already a thing in the 1960's, as there were a couple of blur specialists looking at JFK assassination pictures by around 1966. Today, of course, these studies are much more detailed and elegant. A blurry photo submitted for this kind of analysis can provide a lot of information, just as can a blurry fingerprint.

Here is a technical article (there are many):

A non-parametric blur measure based on edge analysis for image processing applications

A nonparametric image blur measure is presented. The measure is based on edge analysis and is suitable for various image processing applications. The proposed measure for any edge point is obtained by combining the standard deviation of the edge gradient magnitude profile and the value of the...

ieeexplore.ieee.org

plus top forces like FBI ( same with other nations) usually have at least one specialist expert who just identifies car models from poor imagery ( when there's still remaining doubt)

 

[Zella]

plus they wouldn't be reporting undergrads to parents would they? unless there was an admission to hospital ( in event that University thought the 'unconsciousness' was a medical emergency)

I seriously doubt it. When I was a TA at a university, it was really stressed to us that these were legal adults, and they had a right to privacy. That was more around the issue of nosy family members and grades, but I don't think the medical issue would be any different. A university isn't high school. They're not going to call your parents every time you misbehave or have an issue. MOO

 

[sumzero]

Although it would be helpful if the white car seen leaving the house were the killer's car, if that were the case, it suggests that some of the information we have previously received is incorrect.

Current information has both girls upstairs call the ex-BF just before 3. The coroner stated that all victims were likely asleep in beds. A car is exiting the scene just after three. That is a lot to have happened in a short period of time. Did K and M immediately fall asleep after the calls?

The times for the calls came from K's sister. K and M apparently both tried to call. To get accurate times for both would require access to both phones, unless the source of the times was the ex-BF's phone. Could the times on his phone be incorrect? I use Spectrum Cellular, and occasionally it can take a long time for a text to arrive. It is also possible that the white car driver was present, there was some kind of argument, and white car driver left and returned later with a knife. This is not likely IMHO since an impulsive person like that would likely already be in custody.

Another possibility is that the care seen was a guest who left sometime before the attack. My issue with that is that such a group most likely would have come forward and proffered an alibi to avoid issues later.

To be honest, the timeline given by LE has always seemed off to me. The two surviving roommates go out independently but are listed as returning at the same time. The two pairs who were killed also seem to be out independently, but both return at almost the same time.

Do we even know the time of death? I've seen references to 3-4 a.m. Is this official info released by LE? Surveillance video is sought for 3-6 a.m. So, that might indicate a less precise estimate of TOD.

 

[cottonweaver]

I seriously doubt it. When I was a TA at a university, it was really stressed to us that these were legal adults, and they had a right to privacy. That was more around the issue of nosy family members and grades, but I don't think the medical issue would be any different. A university isn't high school. They're not going to call your parents every time you misbehave or have an issue. MOO

legal adults - indeed ( re admission to a hospital - I meant in event of a risk to life - ongoing unconsciousness - & contact next of kin)

As regards the University's own records releases - available to the public online - I was more concerned about the number of stalking and sexual harassment complaints formally made to the University ( altho ofc the % might not be out of line with most universities. )

 

[Wallendo]

The time of death has never been released. My post was in regards to the car leaving in the background of the bodycam video. If that were the killer leaving, that would place the time of death right after 3.

 

[Janitor101]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE December 7, 2022
CONTACT

Moscow Police Department, communications team, media line: (C) (208) 997-8701, (O) 208-883-7181

Moscow Police are Asking for the Community’s Help

MOSCOW, Idaho – Detectives are interested in speaking with the occupant(s) of a white 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra, with an unknown license plate. Tips and leads have led investigators to look for additional information about a vehicle being in the immediate area of the King Street residence during the early morning hours of November 13th. Investigators believe the occupant(s) of this vehicle may have critical information to share regarding this case.
If you know of or own a vehicle matching this description, or know of anyone who may have been driving this vehicle on the days preceding or the day of the murders, please forward that information to the Tip Line.

https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24894/12-07-22-Moscow-Police-are-Asking-for-the-Communitys-Help

What is meant by

What's interesting about this story is that it doesn't cite a source within LE and uses words like "likely" or "generally."

However, it is my belief that they were able to identify some part of the killer's DNA by now (the methods for analyzing touch DNA continue to advance).

If that's true, then a lot of what LE has said and done (or not said and done) is explicable to me. Part of me is not hopeful about them having found specific stranger DNA in that house, but after I read recent (2022) articles on procedures for collecting and analyzing touch DNA, I was a bit more optimistic. A person's shoes, for example, are going to have a lot of that person's DNA on them, and if the killer left bloody shoeprints, that would be an excellent source for finding his DNA. And if not bloody footprints, then stairs themselves should have been swabbed for DNA (it's easy to exclude LE and roommate DNA from the sample).

If there was DNA on the stairs (from the perp), it didn't just go away and expert collectors could have come in later and done a lot of work.

I'm a a firm believer in "touch DNA" to be sure. I'm hoping those steps had been swabbed and precautions taken before detectives, crime scene techs and the coroner used them in order to reach the victims on the 3rd floor.

 

[Celt1997]

Father of murdered Idaho student retains lawyer and may sue police
Father of murdered Idaho student retains lawyer and may sue police

0-0

From the article:

said he hoped a personal attorney will be able to force investigators to release evidence

That's not how things work. He does know that right?

 

[Data Sleuth]

Damn yall are going fast, I stopped reading at 2am last night (uk time) and yall are already a whole thread ahead. I tried catching up and got to when people started posting about LE asking for the white car but I still had 30 pages to go. Has there been anything else since then news wise?

It can be difficult, I do not read every post. Instead I quickly scan each page to see if there is a new article posted or a link with breaking news. By doing that it doesn’t impose on others to answer questions that I might have.
That is just one way to keep up. Certainly everyone is busy, so keeping up becomes an ongoing challenge.

 

[10ofRods]

I had suggested this as an possible options a few weeks ago. I got quickly schooled that it would not be an option and it would take way too long etc. I am glad this is an option LE are considering and/or presently pursuing genetic genealogy.

Edited: I tried to snip some of the post but for some reason, I couldn’t

It definitely could take a while - but that's no reason not to use it.

In the meantime, LE is fairly certain of their suspect. That's because LE has surely already asked people who visit the house frequently (or lived there) for a cheek swab, so that they can be ruled out as a match for whatever profile has emerged (getting the profile can take some time, sometimes using more than one source of stranger DNA within the crime scene),

The perp will be the one who refuses to give DNA. If the perp is young and scared enough to go ahead and give the cheek swab, then no genealogical DNA tracing is needed (if it matches with certain crime scene evidence).

If the perp is someone who has been to the house many times, then obviously, specific crime scene evidence is going to be needed, DNA would not be enough to convict anyone.

My problem with the NG and now the Fox article is that they don't quote LE and in the Fox article, they use words like "usually" or "generally" done, IOW, they are just guessing (just like us).

 

[Bhodie]

What's interesting about this story is that it doesn't cite a source within LE and uses words like "likely" or "generally."

However, it is my belief that they were able to identify some part of the killer's DNA by now (the methods for analyzing touch DNA continue to advance).

If that's true, then a lot of what LE has said and done (or not said and done) is explicable to me. Part of me is not hopeful about them having found specific stranger DNA in that house, but after I read recent (2022) articles on procedures for collecting and analyzing touch DNA, I was a bit more optimistic. A person's shoes, for example, are going to have a lot of that person's DNA on them, and if the killer left bloody shoeprints, that would be an excellent source for finding his DNA. And if not bloody footprints, then stairs themselves should have been swabbed for DNA (it's easy to exclude LE and roommate DNA from the sample).

If there was DNA on the stairs (from the perp), it didn't just go away and expert collectors could have come in later and done a lot of work.

Well it has been reported that there is a treasure trove of evidence. I imagine there is touch DNA as well as biological. Separating that out is going to be a tedious task. It was already reported as the "party house", one can only imagine how much is there. If anyone in that house had any sort of intimate relations, hair shedding, touch DNA ect they will have to go through all of that just to narrow it down to some reasonable probabilities which means this is going to take time and as frustrating as it may be we have to be patient this is not an immediate process. They may be going through DNA that belongs to completely innocent individuals yet they will still have to look at all possibilities.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

What‘s everyone’s thoughts?

If this car is directly related to the murders, was it stolen or borrowed to commit this specific murder? For another reason like house robberies and murder ended up being committed?
Revenge, rejection murders? Obsession with one or more of house occupants, ends in murder and cover up? Envy rage murders, occupants targeted but not known to killer/s?

There is a murderer, and an accomplice who didn’t enter the house? There is more than one killer who committed the murders?

Did the murderer get a ride off someone who hasn’t come forward for reasons unknown? They weren’t aware of what their passenger had done? They don’t believe this person could be the killer so didn’t contact LE they were in the area?

This car ends up not being related to the murders?

 

[ktm44]

JMO I would imagine mercy is not one of the attributes of this killer.

I seem the same sentiments repeated often and I think somehow it makes people less fearful if they can attribute some kind of compassion or empathetic (didn't harm dog or roommates).

I'd be interested in knowing after someone is arrested, how this all played out but I don't believe it has anything to do with the killer being a dog lover or liking the downstairs occupants better or knowing who called LE to the other incident.

Sometimes the reason has less to do with compassion than timing, circumstances or something else lurking in a mind we'll never understand.

 

[Dysfunkshun]

From the article:


That's not how things work. He does know that right?

I’m not sure he does. I don’t know who’s advising him, but it’s not all great advice. It hurts to see him & all the others in such pain. I just wish antagonizing LE wasn’t necessary in this case. They need to concentrate on catching this cowardly monster.